19th rs track day oulton park 8th march

19th rs track day oulton park 8th march

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boxsey

3,469 posts

164 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
MF-Racing said:
I had a great day in my 991.2 GTS C4. Fist time round Oulton, few questions...

Why did i keep getting off throttle turn in oversteer? Especially going into Hislops chicane? Too late braking, too much trail braking?

In the dry is Clay Hill flat? I kept lifting slightly like a wuss, and was thinking it was prob more unstable to do that as it was sending weight forward?

Water Tower (just before Druids) I take it that's flat as well? Again i was lifting or even braking through it to get speed down for Druids?

Best lap in dry was 2.01.24 using the Track Precision App. Any good or totally crap?

Got a trackway booked there next week as well smile

Cheers



Edited by MF-Racing on Thursday 14th March 12:57
Given your user name my first reaction was that this must be a wind up ! biggrin

If it's not, for a standard car on road tyres on a track that was never completely dry, I would say that's an excellent time.

ttdan

983 posts

147 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
MF-Racing said:
I had a great day in my 991.2 GTS C4. Fist time round Oulton, few questions...

Why did i keep getting off throttle turn in oversteer? Especially going into Hislops chicane? Too late braking, too much trail braking?

In the dry is Clay Hill flat? I kept lifting slightly like a wuss, and was thinking it was prob more unstable to do that as it was sending weight forward?

Water Tower (just before Druids) I take it that's flat as well? Again i was lifting or even braking through it to get speed down for Druids?

Best lap in dry was 2.01.24 using the Track Precision App. Any good or totally crap?

Got a trackway booked there next week as well smile

Cheers
Brake bias and or diff of your car not up to what you were asking it to do.

Clay hill flat

Water tower maybe but you need some braking room...so depends what your brakes are like :-)

Digga

30,607 posts

237 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
boxsey said:
MF-Racing said:
I had a great day in my 991.2 GTS C4. Fist time round Oulton, few questions...

Why did i keep getting off throttle turn in oversteer? Especially going into Hislops chicane? Too late braking, too much trail braking?

In the dry is Clay Hill flat? I kept lifting slightly like a wuss, and was thinking it was prob more unstable to do that as it was sending weight forward?

Water Tower (just before Druids) I take it that's flat as well? Again i was lifting or even braking through it to get speed down for Druids?

Best lap in dry was 2.01.24 using the Track Precision App. Any good or totally crap?

Got a trackway booked there next week as well smile

Cheers



Edited by MF-Racing on Thursday 14th March 12:57
Given your user name my first reaction was that this must be a wind up ! biggrin

If it's not, for a standard car on road tyres on a track that was never completely dry, I would say that's an excellent time.
Yes, I'd like to know "racing what and where?" too!

I recognise the car and remember it was definitely going pretty rapidly. Having done this track day twice in a 4WD car (996 turbo) I can confidently say that not all of the pace was down to the drivetrain.

ginettajoe

2,061 posts

172 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
MF-Racing said:
I had a great day in my 991.2 GTS C4. Fist time round Oulton, few questions...

Why did i keep getting off throttle turn in oversteer? Especially going into Hislops chicane? Too late braking, too much trail braking?

In the dry is Clay Hill flat? I kept lifting slightly like a wuss, and was thinking it was prob more unstable to do that as it was sending weight forward?

Water Tower (just before Druids) I take it that's flat as well? Again i was lifting or even braking through it to get speed down for Druids?

Best lap in dry was 2.01.24 using the Track Precision App. Any good or totally crap?

Got a trackway booked there next week as well smile

Cheers







Edited by MF-Racing on Thursday 14th March 12:57
..... the answer to your question regarding "off throttle turn in understeer" is simple! Be more positive on the brakes, so you feel weight transfer to the front, turn in progressively just before the join line on the tarmac as you approach, and ease off the brakes as you turn, being completely off the brakes as you use the apex kerb, and gently back on the power immediately! The should be no point at which nothing is happening, either be braking or on the power!!

Taffy66

3,659 posts

56 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
MF-Racing said:
I had a great day in my 991.2 GTS C4. Fist time round Oulton, few questions...

Why did i keep getting off throttle turn in oversteer? Especially going into Hislops chicane? Too late braking, too much trail braking?

In the dry is Clay Hill flat? I kept lifting slightly like a wuss, and was thinking it was prob more unstable to do that as it was sending weight forward?

Water Tower (just before Druids) I take it that's flat as well? Again i was lifting or even braking through it to get speed down for Druids?

Best lap in dry was 2.01.24 using the Track Precision App. Any good or totally crap?

Got a trackway booked there next week as well smile

Cheers
Out of interest does your 991.2 GTS have RAS or not..When i drove both RAS and non RAS 991.2GTS at the PEC i found that RAS significantly reduced off throttle turn-in understeer.

MF-Racing

19 posts

50 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
boxsey said:
Given your user name my first reaction was that this must be a wind up ! biggrin

If it's not, for a standard car on road tyres on a track that was never completely dry, I would say that's an excellent time.
Haha, well I'll come clean, I've must have done about 300+ laps around Oulton, however all these were on a bike. I used to race in BSB GP125 and BSB Superstock so I know my way round! It was just the first time on four wheel (well discounting medical cars!)

Thanks for your comment!

MF-Racing

19 posts

50 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
ttdan said:
Clay hill flat

Water tower maybe but you need some braking room...so depends what your brakes are like :-)
Greet cheers. I now know to stop being a wuss when i go back next week then! smile

MF-Racing

19 posts

50 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
Digga said:
es, I'd like to know "racing what and where?" too!

I recognise the car and remember it was definitely going pretty rapidly. Having done this track day twice in a 4WD car (996 turbo) I can confidently say that not all of the pace was down to the drivetrain.
Haha see above mate smile Thanks for your comment, I felt pretty good for first time on track in a car. Just not really sure what the car is capable of, and don't really want to put it in the lake smile

MF-Racing

19 posts

50 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
ginettajoe said:
..... the answer to your question regarding "off throttle turn in understeer" is simple! Be more positive on the brakes, so you feel weight transfer to the front, turn in progressively just before the join line on the tarmac as you approach, and ease off the brakes as you turn, being completely off the brakes as you use the apex kerb, and gently back on the power immediately! The should be no point at which nothing is happening, either be braking or on the power!!
Thanks, sounds like I was trail braking too hard/close to the apex then. Will try to be more gentle next time. You can get away with braking right up to the apex on a race bike on slicks, so maybe me just asking too much!

MF-Racing

19 posts

50 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
Taffy66 said:
Out of interest does your 991.2 GTS have RAS or not..When i drove both RAS and non RAS 991.2GTS at the PEC i found that RAS significantly reduced off throttle turn-in understeer.
No mate, it doesn't have rear steer. Never driven one with it so not sure what benefit it brings smile

ginettajoe

2,061 posts

172 months

Friday 15th March 2019
quotequote all
MF-Racing said:
ginettajoe said:
..... the answer to your question regarding "off throttle turn in understeer" is simple! Be more positive on the brakes, so you feel weight transfer to the front, turn in progressively just before the join line on the tarmac as you approach, and ease off the brakes as you turn, being completely off the brakes as you use the apex kerb, and gently back on the power immediately! The should be no point at which nothing is happening, either be braking or on the power!!
Thanks, sounds like I was trail braking too hard/close to the apex then. Will try to be more gentle next time. You can get away with braking right up to the apex on a race bike on slicks, so maybe me just asking too much!
..... no, if that was the case, you would still eliminate your understeer! My guess is that you are releasing the brake pressure too early, even though you feel you are on the brakes! Because of that, the front suspension is rising, so when you turn, weight is transferring over the L/H front wheel!
It is interesting that you raced 'bikes (but now you've come to your senses!), because the most settled line in a car, is identical to the line on a 'bike, where the steering wheel becomes the 'bike, where the turn in is very progressive, in just the same way you lean very progessively on a 'bike!! in exactly the same analogy, the steering input is released relative to feeding in power, just as you would on a 'bike, allowing it to straighten up relative to opening the throttle! I hope that makes sense!! Forget what people tell you about late turn in, and a car line being different to a 'bike!! I'm sure you are well aware, that not many years ago, if someone told you to trail brake on a 'bike, you would think they were crazy!! Likewise, counter steering on a 'bike is something the average person would never understand!! As i said in an earlier post, driving techniques have moved on from the '70's late turn, point and squirt!!!

hunter 66

3,089 posts

174 months

Friday 15th March 2019
quotequote all
Yes ginettajoe the Rob Wilson school of thought and many F1 drivers come to him .....and are already the best.

Digga

30,607 posts

237 months

Friday 15th March 2019
quotequote all
MF-Racing said:
Digga said:
es, I'd like to know "racing what and where?" too!

I recognise the car and remember it was definitely going pretty rapidly. Having done this track day twice in a 4WD car (996 turbo) I can confidently say that not all of the pace was down to the drivetrain.
Haha see above mate smile Thanks for your comment, I felt pretty good for first time on track in a car. Just not really sure what the car is capable of, and don't really want to put it in the lake smile
biggrin
Given your experience, if you are going to make a habit of going on track, you'll get more from a 2WD car, mainly from the perspective of lower weight and more precise steering response.

boxsey

3,469 posts

164 months

Friday 15th March 2019
quotequote all
MF-Racing said:
boxsey said:
Given your user name my first reaction was that this must be a wind up ! biggrin

If it's not, for a standard car on road tyres on a track that was never completely dry, I would say that's an excellent time.
Haha, well I'll come clean, I've must have done about 300+ laps around Oulton, however all these were on a bike. I used to race in BSB GP125 and BSB Superstock so I know my way round! It was just the first time on four wheel (well discounting medical cars!)

Thanks for your comment!
Ha ha, that'll explain it then. A good mate of mine used to race bikes around Oulton and jibes me about being too slow. Albeit that he was racing there before they put the chicane in to slow down Knickerbrook!

To put current car laptimes into perspective for you (IMHO): Sub 2.10 is respectable track day pace. Sub 2.00 is very fast trackday pace. Sub 1.55 is tin top race car pace (e.g. Porsche club championship). Sub 1.50 is carrera cup pace (difficult to be accurate because they only do the Island circuit now when supporting BTCC). Sub 1.40 are the top GT3 class in British GT (GT4 class are about 1.45) and the fastest are the F3 cars at something like 1.30.

Yellow491

Original Poster:

1,779 posts

73 months

Friday 15th March 2019
quotequote all
hunter 66 said:
Yes ginettajoe the Rob Wilson school of thought and many F1 drivers come to him .....and are already the best.
Rob knows how to get the best out of you,inbetween his cigarettessmilegreat coach.

ajondyh

477 posts

78 months

Friday 15th March 2019
quotequote all
boxsey said:
Ha ha, that'll explain it then. A good mate of mine used to race bikes around Oulton and jibes me about being too slow. Albeit that he was racing there before they put the chicane in to slow down Knickerbrook!

To put current car laptimes into perspective for you (IMHO): Sub 2.10 is respectable track day pace. Sub 2.00 is very fast trackday pace. Sub 1.55 is tin top race car pace (e.g. Porsche club championship). Sub 1.50 is carrera cup pace (difficult to be accurate because they only do the Island circuit now when supporting BTCC). Sub 1.40 are the top GT3 class in British GT (GT4 class are about 1.45) and the fastest are the F3 cars at something like 1.30.
I was at Oulton on 26th last month as passenger in my friends standard 991.2 GT3 and we were doing 1.51's on Michelin cups and that was without a 100% clear lap. The WPI boys were there with a 2018 Carrera cup car and were doing 1.37's on slicks. It was like a summers day weather wise though.

Steve Rance

5,150 posts

185 months

Friday 15th March 2019
quotequote all
MF-Racing said:
I had a great day in my 991.2 GTS C4. Fist time round Oulton, few questions...

Why did i keep getting off throttle turn in oversteer? Especially going into Hislops chicane? Too late braking, too much trail braking?

In the dry is Clay Hill flat? I kept lifting slightly like a wuss, and was thinking it was prob more unstable to do that as it was sending weight forward?

Water Tower (just before Druids) I take it that's flat as well? Again i was lifting or even braking through it to get speed down for Druids?

Best lap in dry was 2.01.24 using the Track Precision App. Any good or totally crap?

Got a trackway booked there next week as well smile

Cheers







Edited by MF-Racing on Thursday 14th March 12:57
I thought you drove well on the day. I think that we shared track space quite often. I was in the white 997 Cup. What is the rear diff set up on the C4GTS? is it limited slip? does it work in conjunction with the front diff? Before you can establish a solution to some of your questions you need to find these answers. The diff set up on a 911 is fundamental to the most effective techniques

Porsche911R

19,160 posts

219 months

Friday 15th March 2019
quotequote all
hunter 66 said:
Yes ginettajoe the Rob Wilson school of thought and many F1 drivers come to him .....and are already the best.
like who ?

the top 3 I think are fastest don't use mr Flat car.

Steve Rance

5,150 posts

185 months

Friday 15th March 2019
quotequote all
I spent some time with Rob Wilson. During that time he was instructing - amongst others Lewis Hamilton, Mark Webber and the then world rally champion. His methods are very advanced and dont work unless you already have the ability to drive to threashold.

Lovely guy. Found me a little quali and race pace. Also helped significantly lengthen tyre performance.

Takes the the art of extracting speed to a different level.

Edited by Steve Rance on Friday 15th March 10:19

Porsche911R

19,160 posts

219 months

Friday 15th March 2019
quotequote all
Steve Rance said:
I spent some time with Rob Wilson. During that time he was instructing - amongst others Lewis Hamilton, Mark Webber and the then world rally champion. His methods are very advanced and dont work unless you already have the ability to drive to threashold.

Lovely guy. Takes the the art of extracting speed to a different level.
I agree on the drive to threashold 1st but not about it being advanced, it's pretty basic stuff I thought.

And now days more and more is sim work and data logging putting all what you have learned together.
As each corner now has to be looked at for it's own merits when chasing 1000th of seconds over say finding why you are 3 seconds a lap slower.
now it's why am I a 10th slower !

You might do a late apex for one bend, flat car the next and brake early to apex the next and Diagonal the next , there is no magic formula.

watching Lewis do pole lap after pole lap is interesting, there is no easy fix for every bend the same way.

it's easy to see why people are 2 or 3 seconds slower a lap , less so to see why they are 100th of a second slower.