Steering wheel (non)alignment and increased camber levels?

Steering wheel (non)alignment and increased camber levels?

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Twinfan

Original Poster:

8,265 posts

71 months

Tuesday 1st June
quotequote all
Yeah, it's weird for sure!

The car seems to track OK, although it does pull to the left a touch at times if I let go of the wheel. I'm assuming this is just the car following the camber of the road but I suppose it may be something else Hopefully the next attempt to fix it will throw up something if there's anything wrong.

Twinfan

Original Poster:

8,265 posts

71 months

Tuesday 1st June
quotequote all
Tripe Bypass said:
When the wheel is centred, is there an identical number of turns before you hit the lockstops? If not, the racks not centred.
Good question, I'll have to check it...

Twinfan

Original Poster:

8,265 posts

71 months

Tuesday 1st June
quotequote all
Twinfan said:
Tripe Bypass said:
When the wheel is centred, is there an identical number of turns before you hit the lockstops? If not, the racks not centred.
Good question, I'll have to check it...
OK, so it seems the steering wheel will turn slightly more to the left than the right. I guess this is my problem, and it must have been like that from new. I think moving it over one spline, depending on how big the splines are of course, would knock it over the other way, The difference from side to side isn't massive but is probably enough to cause the mis-alignment I'm seeing.

Some sort of parts tolerance issue then? Is it a case of re-calibrating the steering wheel sensor as far right as it will go without triggering any warning lights and living with it?


Tripe Bypass

519 posts

170 months

Tuesday 1st June
quotequote all
Twinfan said:
Twinfan said:
Tripe Bypass said:
When the wheel is centred, is there an identical number of turns before you hit the lockstops? If not, the racks not centred.
Good question, I'll have to check it...
OK, so it seems the steering wheel will turn slightly more to the left than the right. I guess this is my problem, and it must have been like that from new. I think moving it over one spline, depending on how big the splines are of course, would knock it over the other way, The difference from side to side isn't massive but is probably enough to cause the mis-alignment I'm seeing.

Some sort of parts tolerance issue then? Is it a case of re-calibrating the steering wheel sensor as far right as it will go without triggering any warning lights and living with it?
I'm not 100% sure of the design but there is also the splines at the other end of the column I.e. where the column goes into the steering's pinion. And there's probably a universal joint halfway down the column which is likely to be splined.

Twinfan

Original Poster:

8,265 posts

71 months

Tuesday 1st June
quotequote all
Cheers - much appreciated. I'll have a chat with the guys at my geo place but I'm wondering if this should maybe be a warranty issue.

churchie2856

338 posts

157 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
I'd be surprised if its a rack issue or that the steering wheel has been moved a spline on the shaft (I doubt they are granular enough to cause it to be only a little out).

The subtle pull left is almost certainly due to the camber of the road (when on driving on the correct side of the road).

If you do as I suggest earlier you will expose if its a camber-thing or a geo-thing.

Another tip is to count ("1000, 2000, 3000, ..., 7000, 8000, ... whooo hedge!") as the car drifts with the wheel held true level (I explain how to set that in advance of a test drive). The repeat on the same side of the road driving teh other way, but be careful!! ("1000, 2000, ... hedge!!!). For both runs one must be travelling at the same speed and start with the side of the car along the centre line.

All this will not take long to complete, and will inform objectively whether its drift is due to road camber (count to same both runs) or geo (different count for both runs).

"Counting the drift" is one of the first things CG do on the before and after road tests, and I suspect for good reason.

churchie2856

338 posts

157 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
Just read back earlier in the thread and you state that with the yellow steering wheel marker TDC on a flat straight road the car goes right. So I assume therfore on a straight cambered road (with the car on the left) with the wheel again TDC, the car drives straight (the subtle "right" bias compensating for the pull due to road camber). Is that the case?

I suspect it require the most minor of adjustment on the trackrods. In my experience just a fraction of a turn is all that is need. When my 718 wasn't right, it only took the slightest adjustment, <1/8 turn on each rod to make a the world of difference.

Das speck

373 posts

133 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
Twinfan said:
OK, so a quick update on my car's steering wheel alignment.

I was at my geo place this morning for around an hour or so and the toe front and rear was completely re-done from scratch with the wheel re-centred as the first step. Unfortunately it doesn't really seem to have helped, the wheel marker is still around 1/2 inch to the left when on a flat road going straight ahead.

I've spoken to them after arriving home and it's going to get booked in again for a few hours for another full geo reset but this time I'm going to jump in and out of the car at various points to check that the wheel is centred dead straight to my eyes to begin with, same once the geo's been re-done, take it out for a test drive with one of the guys there etc etc.

So no fix as yet, but they're going to get it sorted.
Have they tried rotating both tie rods in the same direction to center the rack? - it’s quite a common adjustment and independent to the geo of the car.

I know somebody who took a car to cg and even though I warned and stressed told my mate to make sure they were going to set the wheelbase of the car before starting the geo they didn’t and one side of the car is longer than the other.


Twinfan

Original Poster:

8,265 posts

71 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
churchie2856 said:
Just read back earlier in the thread and you state that with the yellow steering wheel marker TDC on a flat straight road the car goes right. So I assume therfore on a straight cambered road (with the car on the left) with the wheel again TDC, the car drives straight (the subtle "right" bias compensating for the pull due to road camber). Is that the case?
No, it's not the case. The car still goes left, just not quite as much.

Das speck said:
Have they tried rotating both tie rods in the same direction to center the rack? - it’s quite a common adjustment and independent to the geo of the car.
I don't think so, I'll mention it next time I speak to them. Thanks!

Das speck

373 posts

133 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
Twinfan said:
I don't think so, I'll mention it next time I speak to them. Thanks!
It really is a normal adjustment.

The reason it’s probably happened is when they did the last alignment they just aimed for greens on each wheel instead of dividing the adjustments.

There’s a guy in quickfit in Dunstable that has my approval, I’ve watched him doing it and he follows the adjustments - the only thing he doesn’t/not allowed do is put weights on the seats frown

Twinfan

Original Poster:

8,265 posts

71 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
Thinking some more about this, and chatting to one of the guys at my geo place, we're wondering if the steering wheel was taken off the car the last time it was at my OPC. While it was there it had a small warranty job done which involved lifting the carpets closest to the central tunnel on the driver's side so the wheel may have been removed for access and/or to protect it.

Looking at this video of a 991 steering wheel removal it's fairly finely splined, so one tooth may well be enough to give the wheel position that I've got. I'll be annoyed if that's the case though as there's clearly a mark on both the column and the wheel to line everything up correctly (see around 3min 40secs in the video):

https://youtu.be/R5niDXjES9I?t=221

Here's what I think is the problem graphically:

[a] |----------0----------| = Steering wheel marker TDC at the true centre of the rack (equal turns each side)

[b] |-----------0---------| = My current scenario, the steering wheel marker is TDC slightly to the right of true centre of the rack (slightly more turns to the left than the right)

The car has then been geo'd with the steering wheel marker TDC but actually that means it's slightly off-centre to the rack. When driving, I think the rear is spot on and is pushing the car along dead straight. I'm assuming there's some sort of self-centering effect on the steeering wheel though where it wants to sit in the middle of the rack, something to do with the EPAS perhaps? So the wheel moves to position [a] above, the marker ends up slightly to the left and the car in effect looks like this:

\---0---\
|
|
|
|---0---|

When driving straight ahead I think the front tyres are scrubbing and actually pointing slightly left, hence the drift to the left if I lift my hands off the wheel.

That's my theory at least, and I think I need to have the airbag and steering column bolt removed to check the markers on both the steering wheel and the steering column to see if they're perfectly aligned...



TDT

3,009 posts

86 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
That should be seen in the geo print out for steer ahead then?

With steer ahead (front) and thrust angle (rear) from the rear both being 0° at the same time for the car to track straight with steering straight on a flat road.

Post your latest sheet please.

Twinfan

Original Poster:

8,265 posts

71 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
TDT said:
That should be seen in the geo print out for steer ahead then?

With steer ahead (front) and thrust angle (rear) from the rear both being 0° at the same time for the car to track straight with steering straight on a flat road.

Post your latest sheet please.
This is the latest geo reading I have, from a week or so ago. It's been adjusted since but to the same specs and looks OK to me? confused



Das speck

373 posts

133 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
Twinfan said:
Thinking some more about this, and chatting to one of the guys at my geo place, we're wondering if the steering wheel was taken off the car the last time it was at my OPC. While it was there it had a small warranty job done which involved lifting the carpets closest to the central tunnel on the driver's side so the wheel may have been removed for access and/or to protect it.

Looking at this video of a 991 steering wheel removal it's fairly finely splined, so one tooth may well be enough to give the wheel position that I've got. I'll be annoyed if that's the case though as there's clearly a mark on both the column and the wheel to line everything up correctly (see around 3min 40secs in the video):

https://youtu.be/R5niDXjES9I?t=221

Here's what I think is the problem graphically:

[a] |----------0----------| = Steering wheel marker TDC at the true centre of the rack (equal turns each side)

[b] |-----------0---------| = My current scenario, the steering wheel marker is TDC slightly to the right of true centre of the rack (slightly more turns to the left than the right)

The car has then been geo'd with the steering wheel marker TDC but actually that means it's slightly off-centre to the rack. When driving, I think the rear is spot on and is pushing the car along dead straight. I'm assuming there's some sort of self-centering effect on the steeering wheel though where it wants to sit in the middle of the rack, something to do with the EPAS perhaps? So the wheel moves to position [a] above, the marker ends up slightly to the left and the car in effect looks like this:

\---0---\
|
|
|
|---0---|

When driving straight ahead I think the front tyres are scrubbing and actually pointing slightly left, hence the drift to the left if I lift my hands off the wheel.

That's my theory at least, and I think I need to have the airbag and steering column bolt removed to check the markers on both the steering wheel and the steering column to see if they're perfectly aligned...
The caster of the strut makes the wheel self centre. Think shopping trolly.

Imagine in your drawing the rack is a threaded rod and your wheel is a nut. - what happens if you turn the threaded rod?


Twinfan

Original Poster:

8,265 posts

71 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
Das speck said:
The caster of the strut makes the wheel self centre. Think shopping trolly.

Imagine in your drawing the rack is a threaded rod and your wheel is a nut. - what happens if you turn the threaded rod?
Yep, I get you. I'm just wondering why the car doesn't go straight ahead with the marker at TDC given the geo print I posted above for TDT. Something else seems to be going on scratchchin

Das speck

373 posts

133 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
Twinfan said:
Yep, I get you. I'm just wondering why the car doesn't go straight ahead with the marker at TDC given the geo print I posted above for TDT. Something else seems to be going on scratchchin
I’m not sure what you mean? - from the print out the car looks to be square apart from rear camber.

If your driving ignoring the tdc line does it go straight?

Reading previously you said you have more lock on one side than the other? Kinda all points to rack not centred and the steering wheel being off.

Twinfan

Original Poster:

8,265 posts

71 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
Das speck said:
I’m not sure what you mean? - from the print out the car looks to be square apart from rear camber.

If your driving ignoring the tdc line does it go straight?

Reading previously you said you have more lock on one side than the other? Kinda all points to rack not centred and the steering wheel being off.
Apologies if I'm not being clear, it's confusing the hell out of me! laugh

The car is reading square on the ramp with the wheel centred. On the road, the car only tracks straight if the steering wheel is off-centre to the left, which just isn't logical. There is a touch more lock on the left hand side than the right, which is why I'm thinking the steering wheel is a spline off, but I don't think that explains why the car won't track straight on the road if the wheel is centred.

It's just bizarre.

Kawasicki

9,611 posts

202 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
Twinfan said:
Das speck said:
I’m not sure what you mean? - from the print out the car looks to be square apart from rear camber.

If your driving ignoring the tdc line does it go straight?

Reading previously you said you have more lock on one side than the other? Kinda all points to rack not centred and the steering wheel being off.
Apologies if I'm not being clear, it's confusing the hell out of me! laugh

The car is reading square on the ramp with the wheel centred. On the road, the car only tracks straight if the steering wheel is off-centre to the left, which just isn't logical. There is a touch more lock on the left hand side than the right, which is why I'm thinking the steering wheel is a spline off, but I don't think that explains why the car won't track straight on the road if the wheel is centred.

It's just bizarre.
It‘s not bizarre. Have you switched tyres left to right?

Das speck

373 posts

133 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
Twinfan said:
Apologies if I'm not being clear, it's confusing the hell out of me! laugh

The car is reading square on the ramp with the wheel centred. On the road, the car only tracks straight if the steering wheel is off-centre to the left, which just isn't logical. There is a touch more lock on the left hand side than the right, which is why I'm thinking the steering wheel is a spline off, but I don't think that explains why the car won't track straight on the road if the wheel is centred.

It's just bizarre.
If you adjust the steering wheel a spline you will still have more lock on 1 side than the other.

From looking closer the geo doesn’t look like it’s done well - it’s hit the greens but only just.

If you look at mine the arrows are in the center of bars it’s not perfect at the rear but it’s quickfit using their 2 year plan - just keep going back.

I think the main problem is the rack not being centred which is showing up by the steering wheel.

I think you’re confusing the actual relationship between the rack, column and steering wheel - if the steering wheel had no level markings would there be any complaint?

If you have more lock on one side than the other you might get rubbing on full lock which might make you drive up the curb (like pressing the brake on 1 wheel) I found this out personally.


Twinfan

Original Poster:

8,265 posts

71 months

Wednesday 2nd June
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
It‘s not bizarre. Have you switched tyres left to right?
I think it's bizarre that the car won't track straight with the wheel at the centre, which is how the geo was done confused

Nope, tyres have been the same side since they were fitted.

Das speck said:
If you adjust the steering wheel a spline you will still have more lock on 1 side than the other.

From looking closer the geo doesn’t look like it’s done well - it’s hit the greens but only just. If you look at mine the arrows are in the center of bars it’s not perfect at the rear but it’s quickfit using their 2 year plan - just keep going back.

I think the main problem is the rack not being centred which is showing up by the steering wheel.

I think you’re confusing the actual relationship between the rack, column and steering wheel - if the steering wheel had no level markings would there be any complaint?
Aren't the arrows on the boxes just showing where the setting is in relation to the green range i.e. if you're dead in the middle the arrow will be in the middle, and on my camber settings I'm obviously well outside the standard settings so I get an "X"?

I'm confused because the geo was done with the wheel straight. Therefore, based on the print out, the car should track straight with the wheel centred.

But it doesn't, it goes right. So I have to turn the wheel slightly left to go straight ahead and once going straight if I take my hand off the wheel the car turns left, as you would expect because I'm turning slightly left.

What's confusing me is why I have to turn left to go straight ahead, when the camber of most roads would suggest the opposite.