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Discussion
tescor said:
An update with the July 2024 SMMT figures...
37% drop compared to July 2023. Doesn't look like the new 911, Taycan & Macan have helped much?
It wouldn't be so bad if the whole market was down, but look at the attrition in market share. 37% drop compared to July 2023. Doesn't look like the new 911, Taycan & Macan have helped much?
I guess it is the summer shut-down and maybe 992.2 is taking orders rather than delivering cars ??
Newc said:
JJ77 said:
andrew said:
slightly o/t
the one question that i've never seen answered is...
how will hmrc claw back the money lost on petrol/diesel taxes ?
A question I asked 3 years ago on a motoring forum, got same 4 replies, Tax you More.. but nobody would like to enlighten where and how, lost interest in the subject then. Maybe 3 yrs later somebody has more info..the one question that i've never seen answered is...
how will hmrc claw back the money lost on petrol/diesel taxes ?
1. Surcharge on electricity. Almost impossible to do properly, and anybody with their own solar panels avoids the tax, which will make the Treasury sad.
2. Move it to VED. Tax is just under £4 a gallon. 12000 miles at 30mpg is ~£1500, so your £190 annual VED today will go up to £2,000 a year. Some will win, most will lose, but very easy to implement. Big increase in untaxed/uninsured vehicles in the usual places of course. Hard to capture foreign registered vehicles.
3. Per-mile road charging. This is where Treasury want to get to, quietly backed by Police/GCHQ. But incredibly expensive to put in detailed tracking to every vehicle, and then there's the inevitable human rights lawsuits to get past.
So definitely SuperVED in the short and medium term, and probably the long term too.
eta: If you introduce SuperVED to all vehicles, including ones paying fuel taxes not just EVs, then that's another stick to apply to try and make people move away from ICE.
Edited by Newc on Sunday 18th August 12:32
I could see the EU, and hence us here in the UK, implementing some sort of law to force car manufacturers and car charging port manufacturers to implement this technology.
MB140 said:
I’d also question how are we going to secure these charging sites. A petrol station NEARLY always has an attendant. The hoses hold no value.
About 2 months ago we had 10 Tesla superchargers and 8 ionity (I think) connecting cables chopped off and stolen where they exit the charger. So that’s 18 chargers now useless and I bet they will never be repaired.
All for a few quids worth of metal. If we can’t secure these then the theft of the metals is going to be prolific because let’s face it our justice system is also a joke and the punishments laughable..
Put all the chargers in petrol stations….About 2 months ago we had 10 Tesla superchargers and 8 ionity (I think) connecting cables chopped off and stolen where they exit the charger. So that’s 18 chargers now useless and I bet they will never be repaired.
All for a few quids worth of metal. If we can’t secure these then the theft of the metals is going to be prolific because let’s face it our justice system is also a joke and the punishments laughable..
MB140 said:
I’m sure I read a paper a few years back that said the charge port in your car will become smart and the charging cable will become smart. Whenever you charge the car, the smart system will tell your electricity provider that you are using it to charge your car and you will be taxed accordingly on that portion of the electricity. Won’t matter if you generate it from solar wind mystical fairy dust if you plug your car into charge then it will be taxed. Additionally, if you think you’re going to fiddle the system by not using the smart cable, just using an ordinary type cable then the car will not allow you to charge.
I could see the EU, and hence us here in the UK, implementing some sort of law to force car manufacturers and car charging port manufacturers to implement this technology.
A couple of years ago all home car chargers had to be supplied with a mandatory WiFi module/communication so i suspect that at some point the manufacturer of the charger may have to make the charging data available to the government......I could see the EU, and hence us here in the UK, implementing some sort of law to force car manufacturers and car charging port manufacturers to implement this technology.
MB140 said:
I’m sure I read a paper a few years back that said the charge port in your car will become smart and the charging cable will become smart. Whenever you charge the car, the smart system will tell your electricity provider that you are using it to charge your car and you will be taxed accordingly on that portion of the electricity. Won’t matter if you generate it from solar wind mystical fairy dust if you plug your car into charge then it will be taxed. Additionally, if you think you’re going to fiddle the system by not using the smart cable, just using an ordinary type cable then the car will not allow you to charge.
I could see the EU, and hence us here in the UK, implementing some sort of law to force car manufacturers and car charging port manufacturers to implement this technology.
Don't believe all you read in papers I could see the EU, and hence us here in the UK, implementing some sort of law to force car manufacturers and car charging port manufacturers to implement this technology.
Whereas Porsche USA just reported it's best ever Quarter of sales for Q2 2024:
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en_US/2024/company/Po...
It's clearly a different market over there, helped by much more sensible financing, not the 12% APR stupidity of Porsche UK.
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en_US/2024/company/Po...
It's clearly a different market over there, helped by much more sensible financing, not the 12% APR stupidity of Porsche UK.
Guyr said:
Whereas Porsche USA just reported it's best ever Quarter of sales for Q2 2024:
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en_US/2024/company/Po...
It's clearly a different market over there, helped by much more sensible financing, not the 12% APR stupidity of Porsche UK.
Clearly the US promoted Ukraine war is having less effect on them than us.https://newsroom.porsche.com/en_US/2024/company/Po...
It's clearly a different market over there, helped by much more sensible financing, not the 12% APR stupidity of Porsche UK.
The joke of the finance is also stupid. Porsche finance borrow of the ecb. The rate ESTER is around 3.7%. We are being screwed in a way the yanks wouldn't accept.
Discombobulate said:
MB140 said:
I’m sure I read a paper a few years back that said the charge port in your car will become smart and the charging cable will become smart. Whenever you charge the car, the smart system will tell your electricity provider that you are using it to charge your car and you will be taxed accordingly on that portion of the electricity. Won’t matter if you generate it from solar wind mystical fairy dust if you plug your car into charge then it will be taxed. Additionally, if you think you’re going to fiddle the system by not using the smart cable, just using an ordinary type cable then the car will not allow you to charge.
I could see the EU, and hence us here in the UK, implementing some sort of law to force car manufacturers and car charging port manufacturers to implement this technology.
Don't believe all you read in papers I could see the EU, and hence us here in the UK, implementing some sort of law to force car manufacturers and car charging port manufacturers to implement this technology.
I’m not saying this is exactly what will happen, it was a proof of concept idea. I don’t believe it would be too difficult to implement and I could see governments going that way.
Guyr said:
Whereas Porsche USA just reported it's best ever Quarter of sales for Q2 2024:
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en_US/2024/company/Po...
It's clearly a different market over there, helped by much more sensible financing, not the 12% APR stupidity of Porsche UK.
Careful. Non Porsche owning posters will accuse you of "shilling" for the company. https://newsroom.porsche.com/en_US/2024/company/Po...
It's clearly a different market over there, helped by much more sensible financing, not the 12% APR stupidity of Porsche UK.
CallThatMusic said:
MB140 said:
I’d also question how are we going to secure these charging sites. A petrol station NEARLY always has an attendant. The hoses hold no value.
About 2 months ago we had 10 Tesla superchargers and 8 ionity (I think) connecting cables chopped off and stolen where they exit the charger. So that’s 18 chargers now useless and I bet they will never be repaired.
All for a few quids worth of metal. If we can’t secure these then the theft of the metals is going to be prolific because let’s face it our justice system is also a joke and the punishments laughable..
Put all the chargers in petrol stations….About 2 months ago we had 10 Tesla superchargers and 8 ionity (I think) connecting cables chopped off and stolen where they exit the charger. So that’s 18 chargers now useless and I bet they will never be repaired.
All for a few quids worth of metal. If we can’t secure these then the theft of the metals is going to be prolific because let’s face it our justice system is also a joke and the punishments laughable..
Also we are already trialing electrified highway's here in the USA where your car will charge as you drive.
https://www.npr.org/2024/06/06/nx-s1-4985688/india...
Newc said:
Only three ways it can be done:
1. Surcharge on electricity. Almost impossible to do properly, and anybody with their own solar panels avoids the tax, which will make the Treasury sad.
2. Move it to VED. Tax is just under £4 a gallon. 12000 miles at 30mpg is ~£1500, so your £190 annual VED today will go up to £2,000 a year. Some will win, most will lose, but very easy to implement. Big increase in untaxed/uninsured vehicles in the usual places of course. Hard to capture foreign registered vehicles.
3. Per-mile road charging. This is where Treasury want to get to, quietly backed by Police/GCHQ. But incredibly expensive to put in detailed tracking to every vehicle, and then there's the inevitable human rights lawsuits to get past.
So definitely SuperVED in the short and medium term, and probably the long term too.
eta: If you introduce SuperVED to all vehicles, including ones paying fuel taxes not just EVs, then that's another stick to apply to try and make people move away from ICE. ]
Sadly, I think you're wrong, certainly in the long term.1. Surcharge on electricity. Almost impossible to do properly, and anybody with their own solar panels avoids the tax, which will make the Treasury sad.
2. Move it to VED. Tax is just under £4 a gallon. 12000 miles at 30mpg is ~£1500, so your £190 annual VED today will go up to £2,000 a year. Some will win, most will lose, but very easy to implement. Big increase in untaxed/uninsured vehicles in the usual places of course. Hard to capture foreign registered vehicles.
3. Per-mile road charging. This is where Treasury want to get to, quietly backed by Police/GCHQ. But incredibly expensive to put in detailed tracking to every vehicle, and then there's the inevitable human rights lawsuits to get past.
So definitely SuperVED in the short and medium term, and probably the long term too.
eta: If you introduce SuperVED to all vehicles, including ones paying fuel taxes not just EVs, then that's another stick to apply to try and make people move away from ICE. ]
Re 3., GPS trackers are dirt cheap, even GPS trackers with cellular are not expensive. At scale I would think doable for £250 retrofitted to nearly any car. It's the cost of a few tanks of fuel /a year's VED, hardly something the driving public couldn't absorb as a one off should it be dictated.
There would be a cost of setting up the back end for the government, but the whole thing wouldn't be terribly costly. Unfortunately!
My hope is that they'll eventually road price new cars or at least new EVs, but by the time they get round to it there will be so few ICE cars left it won't be worth the bother to legislate for the fitting of retrofit trackers and they'll continue to be taxed on the fuel. They may not need to dictate retrofitting at all.
One obvious way to do it would be to require new vehicles from a certain date to have compliant trackers fitted. OK, that would encourage people to hold on to non-tracked cars, but you could apply a substantial discount on road usage on those new cars for a few years and or ramp up VED hideously on non-tracked cars. Sure, you can drive untracked, but it'll cost you £1,000 extra this year, rising £500 a year over the next five years until it's really punitive! Most punters will happily sign away their privacy to save a few quid and so after a few years the installed base will have moved heavily in the right direction and it'll basically be a done deal.
Road pricing is a bit of a no brainer for governments, really. Horrifying if you enjoy driving, obviously, but hard to imagine it won't eventually be the norm. Not acutely imminent, but would be surprised if the transition to road pricing hasn't begun within at most 20 years. At a guess, I'd say that transition will begin in 10 years.
In other words, within 10 years there will be legislation on the books requiring trackers for road pricing to be fitted to all new cars from some future date four or five years hence, or whatever.
f6box said:
Sadly, I think you're wrong, certainly in the long term.
Re 3., GPS trackers are dirt cheap, even GPS trackers with cellular are not expensive. At scale I would think doable for £250 retrofitted to nearly any car. It's the cost of a few tanks of fuel /a year's VED, hardly something the driving public couldn't absorb as a one off should it be dictated.
There would be a cost of setting up the back end for the government, but the whole thing wouldn't be terribly costly. Unfortunately!
My hope is that they'll eventually road price new cars or at least new EVs, but by the time they get round to it there will be so few ICE cars left it won't be worth the bother to legislate for the fitting of retrofit trackers and they'll continue to be taxed on the fuel. They may not need to dictate retrofitting at all.
One obvious way to do it would be to require new vehicles from a certain date to have compliant trackers fitted. OK, that would encourage people to hold on to non-tracked cars, but you could apply a substantial discount on road usage on those new cars for a few years and or ramp up VED hideously on non-tracked cars. Sure, you can drive untracked, but it'll cost you £1,000 extra this year, rising £500 a year over the next five years until it's really punitive! Most punters will happily sign away their privacy to save a few quid and so after a few years the installed base will have moved heavily in the right direction and it'll basically be a done deal.
Road pricing is a bit of a no brainer for governments, really. Horrifying if you enjoy driving, obviously, but hard to imagine it won't eventually be the norm. Not acutely imminent, but would be surprised if the transition to road pricing hasn't begun within at most 20 years. At a guess, I'd say that transition will begin in 10 years.
In other words, within 10 years there will be legislation on the books requiring trackers for road pricing to be fitted to all new cars from some future date four or five years hence, or whatever.
charging will be implemented as per ULEZ/Conjestion Zone using cameras, probably initially on motorways / A roads. Don't see trackers working. Look at the current massive insurance/RFL avoidance .. would be far worse Re 3., GPS trackers are dirt cheap, even GPS trackers with cellular are not expensive. At scale I would think doable for £250 retrofitted to nearly any car. It's the cost of a few tanks of fuel /a year's VED, hardly something the driving public couldn't absorb as a one off should it be dictated.
There would be a cost of setting up the back end for the government, but the whole thing wouldn't be terribly costly. Unfortunately!
My hope is that they'll eventually road price new cars or at least new EVs, but by the time they get round to it there will be so few ICE cars left it won't be worth the bother to legislate for the fitting of retrofit trackers and they'll continue to be taxed on the fuel. They may not need to dictate retrofitting at all.
One obvious way to do it would be to require new vehicles from a certain date to have compliant trackers fitted. OK, that would encourage people to hold on to non-tracked cars, but you could apply a substantial discount on road usage on those new cars for a few years and or ramp up VED hideously on non-tracked cars. Sure, you can drive untracked, but it'll cost you £1,000 extra this year, rising £500 a year over the next five years until it's really punitive! Most punters will happily sign away their privacy to save a few quid and so after a few years the installed base will have moved heavily in the right direction and it'll basically be a done deal.
Road pricing is a bit of a no brainer for governments, really. Horrifying if you enjoy driving, obviously, but hard to imagine it won't eventually be the norm. Not acutely imminent, but would be surprised if the transition to road pricing hasn't begun within at most 20 years. At a guess, I'd say that transition will begin in 10 years.
In other words, within 10 years there will be legislation on the books requiring trackers for road pricing to be fitted to all new cars from some future date four or five years hence, or whatever.
MB140 said:
This wasn’t the Sun newspaper I’m talking about. It was a technical publication from an IET monthly magazine If I remember correctly. If not from IET it was another engineering and technology magazine. It was in our office t-bar area.
I’m not saying this is exactly what will happen, it was a proof of concept idea. I don’t believe it would be too difficult to implement and I could see governments going that way.
I edited a techical journal and wasn’t referring to the Sun.I’m not saying this is exactly what will happen, it was a proof of concept idea. I don’t believe it would be too difficult to implement and I could see governments going that way.
andrew said:
just to clarify
my question was with regards to when petrol is all but history
ie when 90% of cars are spark driven
There are 41m cars on UK roads , so I think it will be some while before that lot is changed my question was with regards to when petrol is all but history
ie when 90% of cars are spark driven
Also by then we will need to have 100% renewable leccy or the whole thing is a waste of time.
I visited my local dealership last week - absolutely rammed with cars, ridiculous amounts and they are all squeezed in, even taking up all the customer parking and service yard, I’ve never seen it have so many cars in stock and I’ve been going there for over 15years. A chat with a couple of staff indicated that Porsche are forcing them to accept cars into stock. Not sure if these are on an unregistered or preregistered basis.
They had a used 911 there that I was interested in and made an offer a few thousand below, which they rejected. They just discounted it to £5k below what I offered and yet they haven’t contacted me.
Very odd times.
They had a used 911 there that I was interested in and made an offer a few thousand below, which they rejected. They just discounted it to £5k below what I offered and yet they haven’t contacted me.
Very odd times.
W12GT said:
I visited my local dealership last week - absolutely rammed with cars, ridiculous amounts and they are all squeezed in, even taking up all the customer parking and service yard, I’ve never seen it have so many cars in stock and I’ve been going there for over 15years. A chat with a couple of staff indicated that Porsche are forcing them to accept cars into stock. Not sure if these are on an unregistered or preregistered basis.
They had a used 911 there that I was interested in and made an offer a few thousand below, which they rejected. They just discounted it to £5k below what I offered and yet they haven’t contacted me.
Very odd times.
5k below what you offered a week back…..are you going for it? They had a used 911 there that I was interested in and made an offer a few thousand below, which they rejected. They just discounted it to £5k below what I offered and yet they haven’t contacted me.
Very odd times.
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