How threatened is JLR?...sounds worrying.

How threatened is JLR?...sounds worrying.

Author
Discussion

RDMcG

Original Poster:

15,875 posts

166 months

Friday 15th November 2019
quotequote all
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-11...

I recall some of the mighty days of Jaguar in particular....but it does not look good.

bartelbe

49 posts

39 months

Saturday 16th November 2019
quotequote all
The problem is the short termism and unwillingness of this country and our idiot government to back British companies. Yes some companies should be allowed to good under, like the old mills, they had no future. Others obviously have a future but need short term backing because the market has suddenly changed, they invested in the wrong product or there was an unexpected fault in one the major projects.

Other countries take a long term view, would JLR be a viable and valuable company for Britain in 10 years time? The answer is obviously yes, so we should support them. The odds of the idiots in Westminster doing so are very long. Which is why our economy is such a joke.

Monkeylegend

19,884 posts

190 months

Saturday 16th November 2019
quotequote all
bartelbe said:
The problem is the short termism and unwillingness of this country and our idiot government to back British companies. Yes some companies should be allowed to good under, like the old mills, they had no future. Others obviously have a future but need short term backing because the market has suddenly changed, they invested in the wrong product or there was an unexpected fault in one the major projects.

Other countries take a long term view, would JLR be a viable and valuable company for Britain in 10 years time? The answer is obviously yes, so we should support them. The odds of the idiots in Westminster doing so are very long. Which is why our economy is such a joke.
Maybe if JLR worked on improving their reliability and improve the after sales service of their franchise network, they would not be in this position. When you are paying for a premuim product you expect a premium service and far higher levels of reliability.

Why should they be bailed out with tax payers money for issues that are within their own control. They are the modern day British Leyland so we should not be surprised they find themselves in this position.

So

19,666 posts

181 months

Saturday 16th November 2019
quotequote all
Monkeylegend said:
Maybe if JLR worked on improving their reliability and improve the after sales service of their franchise network, they would not be in this position. When you are paying for a premuim product you expect a premium service and far higher levels of reliability.

Why should they be bailed out with tax payers money for issues that are within their own control. They are the modern day British Leyland so we should not be surprised they find themselves in this position.
I broadly agree with you.

bartelbe

49 posts

39 months

Sunday 17th November 2019
quotequote all
Monkeylegend said:
Maybe if JLR worked on improving their reliability and improve the after sales service of their franchise network, they would not be in this position. When you are paying for a premuim product you expect a premium service and far higher levels of reliability.

Why should they be bailed out with tax payers money for issues that are within their own control. They are the modern day British Leyland so we should not be surprised they find themselves in this position.
Because it is in the long term economic interests of the country. What people forget, is when we lose our big manufacturing companies, it destroys a whole eco-system of medium and small companies that supply them. Once those are gone, it is very difficult to recreate them. Which is on the reasons the foreign car plants in the UK use so little UK content, when it comes parts.

We have the world's second largest trade deficit, we are not paying our way in the world with services. If you have a suggestion on how we pay for all those imports, while making absolutely nothing, I am all ears.

Monkeylegend

19,884 posts

190 months

Sunday 17th November 2019
quotequote all
bartelbe said:
Monkeylegend said:
Maybe if JLR worked on improving their reliability and improve the after sales service of their franchise network, they would not be in this position. When you are paying for a premuim product you expect a premium service and far higher levels of reliability.

Why should they be bailed out with tax payers money for issues that are within their own control. They are the modern day British Leyland so we should not be surprised they find themselves in this position.
Because it is in the long term economic interests of the country. What people forget, is when we lose our big manufacturing companies, it destroys a whole eco-system of medium and small companies that supply them. Once those are gone, it is very difficult to recreate them. Which is on the reasons the foreign car plants in the UK use so little UK content, when it comes parts.

We have the world's second largest trade deficit, we are not paying our way in the world with services. If you have a suggestion on how we pay for all those imports, while making absolutely nothing, I am all ears.
You don't show a garage but out of interest what do you drive?

mfp4073

1,661 posts

133 months

Sunday 17th November 2019
quotequote all
Monkeylegend said:
Maybe if JLR worked on improving their reliability and improve the after sales service of their franchise network, they would not be in this position. When you are paying for a premuim product you expect a premium service and far higher levels of reliability.

Why should they be bailed out with tax payers money for issues that are within their own control. They are the modern day British Leyland so we should not be surprised they find themselves in this position.
JLR have had decades to get their quality in order, and yet here we are with the same old issues. Years ago we had a small fleet of Range Rovers at work, guess what they were in the workshop every week with various problems.
A couple of friends actually bought new Range Rovers one quite recently, and surprise surprise they had electrical problems that even Range Rover couldn't fix.
The crazy thing is even though it's common knowledge that these things are money pits, Range Rovers are everywhere and seem to sell quite well.

Teddy Lop

3,813 posts

26 months

Sunday 17th November 2019
quotequote all
mfp4073 said:
JLR have had decades to get their quality in order, and yet here we are with the same old issues. Years ago we had a small fleet of Range Rovers at work, guess what they were in the workshop every week with various problems.
A couple of friends actually bought new Range Rovers one quite recently, and surprise surprise they had electrical problems that even Range Rover couldn't fix.
The crazy thing is even though it's common knowledge that these things are money pits, Range Rovers are everywhere and seem to sell quite well.
its not just range rovers though is it? Client of mine has had a mare with Porsche and he isn't alone from what i gather. Insert story of any brand you like here. Service today is terrible all round it seems, just nobody wants to bother.

Although, how you can have a product like range rovers which thanks to fashion sell like hot cakes at marked up prices, and be mired in debt is incredible.

So

19,666 posts

181 months

Sunday 17th November 2019
quotequote all
Teddy Lop said:
its not just range rovers though is it? Client of mine has had a mare with Porsche and he isn't alone from what i gather. Insert story of any brand you like here. Service today is terrible all round it seems, just nobody wants to bother.

Although, how you can have a product like range rovers which thanks to fashion sell like hot cakes at marked up prices, and be mired in debt is incredible.
I've had a lot of Range Rovers and a lot of Porsches. I would far rather be dealing with Porsche when there is a hard to solve problem. Furthermore, I've had ten Range Rover problems for every one Porsche problem.

MDL111

4,989 posts

136 months

Sunday 17th November 2019
quotequote all
Sure while you are at it with some state support for JLR, you might as well also throw a little money Aston Martin’s way - I wish them luck, but don’t see either of them them surviving as independent companies.
If the UK was not so dependent on imports, devaluing the currency could help to make the products more competitive in the world market - alas I don’t think that is an option

964Cup

951 posts

196 months

Sunday 17th November 2019
quotequote all
JLR completely missed the boat with hybrid. They also have terrible dealers. When we last replaced our Disco 4 (our third) we wanted to look at the FF RR hybrid - because inexplicably JLR launched the new Disco with no hybrid. The dealer was (predictably) rubbish at engaging and had no hybrid demonstrator, the eventual cost of a properly-specced FFRR P400E was 20k more than an equivalent XC90 for what appeared to be a less well-developed hybrid system (and we could test drive the XC90). So we bought the XC90 after more than a decade of JLR product loyalty.

The writing was on the wall for diesel at least four years ago. Somehow JLR completely missed the message. It doesn't matter if the message is misguided - this is politics, not science. Job 1 for a car company is to keep up with this kind of thing. Job 2 is to have a dealer network that knows how to make customers feel valued.

gmint24

15 posts

102 months

Sunday 17th November 2019
quotequote all
Have to agree what others have said, JLR have not helped themselves. Having had Jags for the last 7 years, all from new, it is with regret that I will not be having another for a number of reasons:

1. Their products look great on paper, but the reality is that the engineering and quality of the end product is woeful.

2. The dealer network is clueless with a level of service that is intended to baffle you to the point where you actually doubt yourself and not them (clever), so that you will leave them alone and actually blame yourself for buying on their products again.

3. They seem way behind the times with tech, particularly when it comes to the hybrid market.

So I am probably like a lot of their JLR owners, enough is enough and time to move on...RIP JLR.

JagDriver

2 posts

59 months

Sunday 17th November 2019
quotequote all
I find this very upsetting. The I-Pace just won World Car of the Year. The platform is being rolled out across the range. The new XJ is rumoured to be an EV. I do feel a twinge of pity for those that fall for the 'new car on drive' drivel. I drive a 2003 4.2 XJ8. I might upgrade to a newer one but at 120K miles (bought at 6oK) its barely run in. I too have owed other marques (inc BMW and Mercs) but the Jag is he cheapest luxury motor I've ever owned long term.
I think Jag are lumbered with the mass market appeal of the LR part of JLR, but they survived Ford so LR should be easy.

cardigankid

8,500 posts

171 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
bartelbe said:
Monkeylegend said:
Maybe if JLR worked on improving their reliability and improve the after sales service of their franchise network, they would not be in this position. When you are paying for a premuim product you expect a premium service and far higher levels of reliability.

Why should they be bailed out with tax payers money for issues that are within their own control. They are the modern day British Leyland so we should not be surprised they find themselves in this position.
Because it is in the long term economic interests of the country. What people forget, is when we lose our big manufacturing companies, it destroys a whole eco-system of medium and small companies that supply them. Once those are gone, it is very difficult to recreate them. Which is on the reasons the foreign car plants in the UK use so little UK content, when it comes parts.

We have the world's second largest trade deficit, we are not paying our way in the world with services. If you have a suggestion on how we pay for all those imports, while making absolutely nothing, I am all ears.
This is exactly the same argument that was used to justify propping up British Leyland under the Labour Government in the 1970’s. In the end the Government, of whatever colour, did support them, searched for every possible way they could reorganise it and inject some business sense, and they still failed. They put in Don Ryder, they put in Michael Edwardes. In the end it was broken up and sold for washers.

The problem now is also exactly the same, which is political interference and the toleration of political interference. Britain went into WW2 with private enterprise in charge, and it came out of it with the politicians not only in charge but believing that they were capable of running the country and everything in it. Hence the NHS, hence nationalisation and all the rest. Since we are talking about JLR look specifically at Jaguar. Read Philip Porter’s superb book about Sir William Lyons. Lyons was starved of raw materials by Government departments and quotas, prevented by civil servants and exchange control from buying BMW which he could have done, and finally forced to allow his business to be run by civil service mandarins and the trade unions. Don’t take my word for it please read the book. In the end Lyons, who had lost his son in a tragic accident, gave up.

Political control of large business, particularly business which is seen as too large to fail, is insidious and extremely difficult to reverse, because it starts with the politicians ‘helping’ while the executives end up acting as functionaries and abdicate from any sense of responsibility for what ensues.

I have been predicting the demise of JLR for some time and giving the reasons for it. The biggest single factor has been following the political direction to move into diesel. I have no doubt JLR thought they were getting the inside track, and further, that because the politicians said it was going to happen that it was a guaranteed surefire winner. Anyone genuinely in business could tell you that everything is edgy, there are no surefire winners. They went all in and lost. That stripped the capital investment out of the business, and, in my judgement, Tata, which is not a sovereign wealth fund, isn’t going to refinance them and is looking to unload, partly or wholly. The next factor, which will certainly finish them if they last long enough, is the current political direction, which is BEV. Production of BEV is being driven by political dictat, not by customer demand. Even the Germans need to take care not to assume because politicians tell them BEV is the future, that they won’t change their minds. Because it isn’t. But JLR, having lost on diesel, are now betting their shirts and what’s left of the housekeeping money on BEV. And they are going to lose again because the market for these things is small and already saturated.

Of course, there are plenty of other issues, most of them self generated, and most of them with echoes of the 1970’s. Over ambitious unrealistic targets. Range Rover is going to take on Rolls-Royce. Of course they are. Delusional policy statements. A massively overblown Head Office function. Too many PR, Marketing and CI wonks. A megalomaniac dealership roll out programme. Failure to understand that in taking on the Germans they were fighting a war not a battle. Failure to follow through on the brilliant XF with finance deals that would have got real market penetration. Failure to deal with basic quality issues, because that, and the reputational damage it causes is the root cause of poor residuals. Extraordinary costly PR stunts. Far too much indulgence of executives. Squandering money as if they were already on a par with BMW, Mercedes or Volkswagen. And who is actually taking the decisions? Is there a committee somewhere dictating the design decisions? Compromised vehicles like the F Type. Balls ups like the XF facelift. Cars they did not need at all, like the XE. Complete dustbins like the new XJ. Sir W Lyons would never have allowed stuff like that to proceed in the days when he was really running the company. Callum was at best a 50/50 designer. Half his designs were clunkers, even if the other half were great. You point to one bum design Lyons approved. He didn’t need committees. That is the kind of guy you need running a car company. McGovern has also been given enough rope to hang himself. There are FAR too many models in the LR range. The Velar is a beautiful car. So what is the Range Rover Sport about? And who made the asinine decision NOT to release the bargain model Defender until 2021? Because that is the only model with a hope of selling in serious volume. How many expensive 4x4’s do you think they can sell? The company seems to be being dictated to by a committee which doesn’t know what it is doing.

I will tell you something else. The politicians of the UK don’t think they need a car industry, so they don’t care if JLR goes. I was told this by a senior civil servant. They think it is the past, they place no value on the huge and complex infrastructure, supply chains and expertise built up in the country over many decades. They are happy to see it scrapped the way Margaret Thatcher destroyed British industry in the belief that she was destroying trade unionism, and that we could survive as a service economy.

The British Government deserves to nationalise JLR. Because then it will be obvious who is responsible, and down to them to sort out the problems they have created. Which, equally obviously, they will fail to do.

You are right, by and large we are not paying our way in the world. We have somehow been separated from the need to be competitive. Whatever the solution is (and it could be to hit rock bottom and realise there is only one way forward which is going to be a far harder thing than people realise) it certainly isn’t Brexit. We are cutting ourselves off from the only people we know who can actually run car businesses.

Flumpo

2,247 posts

32 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
cardigankid said:
bartelbe said:
Monkeylegend said:
Maybe if JLR worked on improving their reliability and improve the after sales service of their franchise network, they would not be in this position. When you are paying for a premuim product you expect a premium service and far higher levels of reliability.

Why should they be bailed out with tax payers money for issues that are within their own control. They are the modern day British Leyland so we should not be surprised they find themselves in this position.
Because it is in the long term economic interests of the country. What people forget, is when we lose our big manufacturing companies, it destroys a whole eco-system of medium and small companies that supply them. Once those are gone, it is very difficult to recreate them. Which is on the reasons the foreign car plants in the UK use so little UK content, when it comes parts.

We have the world's second largest trade deficit, we are not paying our way in the world with services. If you have a suggestion on how we pay for all those imports, while making absolutely nothing, I am all ears.
This is exactly the same argument that was used to justify propping up British Leyland under the Labour Government in the 1970’s. In the end the Government, of whatever colour, did support them, searched for every possible way they could reorganise it and inject some business sense, and they still failed. They put in Don Ryder, they put in Michael Edwardes. In the end it was broken up and sold for washers.

The problem now is also exactly the same, which is political interference and the toleration of political interference. Britain went into WW2 with private enterprise in charge, and it came out of it with the politicians not only in charge but believing that they were capable of running the country and everything in it. Hence the NHS, hence nationalisation and all the rest. Since we are talking about JLR look specifically at Jaguar. Read Philip Porter’s superb book about Sir William Lyons. Lyons was starved of raw materials by Government departments and quotas, prevented by civil servants and exchange control from buying BMW which he could have done, and finally forced to allow his business to be run by civil service mandarins and the trade unions. Don’t take my word for it please read the book. In the end Lyons, who had lost his son in a tragic accident, gave up.

Political control of large business, particularly business which is seen as too large to fail, is insidious and extremely difficult to reverse, because it starts with the politicians ‘helping’ while the executives end up acting as functionaries and abdicate from any sense of responsibility for what ensues.

I have been predicting the demise of JLR for some time and giving the reasons for it. The biggest single factor has been following the political direction to move into diesel. I have no doubt JLR thought they were getting the inside track, and further, that because the politicians said it was going to happen that it was a guaranteed surefire winner. Anyone genuinely in business could tell you that everything is edgy, there are no surefire winners. They went all in and lost. That stripped the capital investment out of the business, and, in my judgement, Tata, which is not a sovereign wealth fund, isn’t going to refinance them and is looking to unload, partly or wholly. The next factor, which will certainly finish them if they last long enough, is the current political direction, which is BEV. Production of BEV is being driven by political dictat, not by customer demand. Even the Germans need to take care not to assume because politicians tell them BEV is the future, that they won’t change their minds. Because it isn’t. But JLR, having lost on diesel, are now betting their shirts and what’s left of the housekeeping money on BEV. And they are going to lose again because the market for these things is small and already saturated.

Of course, there are plenty of other issues, most of them self generated, and most of them with echoes of the 1970’s. Over ambitious unrealistic targets. Range Rover is going to take on Rolls-Royce. Of course they are. Delusional policy statements. A massively overblown Head Office function. Too many PR, Marketing and CI wonks. A megalomaniac dealership roll out programme. Failure to understand that in taking on the Germans they were fighting a war not a battle. Failure to follow through on the brilliant XF with finance deals that would have got real market penetration. Failure to deal with basic quality issues, because that, and the reputational damage it causes is the root cause of poor residuals. Extraordinary costly PR stunts. Far too much indulgence of executives. Squandering money as if they were already on a par with BMW, Mercedes or Volkswagen. And who is actually taking the decisions? Is there a committee somewhere dictating the design decisions? Compromised vehicles like the F Type. Balls ups like the XF facelift. Cars they did not need at all, like the XE. Complete dustbins like the new XJ. Sir W Lyons would never have allowed stuff like that to proceed in the days when he was really running the company. Callum was at best a 50/50 designer. Half his designs were clunkers, even if the other half were great. You point to one bum design Lyons approved. He didn’t need committees. That is the kind of guy you need running a car company. McGovern has also been given enough rope to hang himself. There are FAR too many models in the LR range. The Velar is a beautiful car. So what is the Range Rover Sport about? And who made the asinine decision NOT to release the bargain model Defender until 2021? Because that is the only model with a hope of selling in serious volume. How many expensive 4x4’s do you think they can sell? The company seems to be being dictated to by a committee which doesn’t know what it is doing.

I will tell you something else. The politicians of the UK don’t think they need a car industry, so they don’t care if JLR goes. I was told this by a senior civil servant. They think it is the past, they place no value on the huge and complex infrastructure, supply chains and expertise built up in the country over many decades. They are happy to see it scrapped the way Margaret Thatcher destroyed British industry in the belief that she was destroying trade unionism, and that we could survive as a service economy.

The British Government deserves to nationalise JLR. Because then it will be obvious who is responsible, and down to them to sort out the problems they have created. Which, equally obviously, they will fail to do.

You are right, by and large we are not paying our way in the world. We have somehow been separated from the need to be competitive. Whatever the solution is (and it could be to hit rock bottom and realise there is only one way forward which is going to be a far harder thing than people realise) it certainly isn’t Brexit. We are cutting ourselves off from the only people we know who can actually run car businesses.
Is this going to be available on audible? If not will there be a condensed version?

Audemars

472 posts

57 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
How can JLR be in so much financial trouble? Given how the public have lapped up RRs despite their dreadfull unreliability and awfulness, they should really be the most profitable car company out there.

Absolutely amazed how they are not amassing cash reserves at a similar level to Apple.

Edited by Audemars on Monday 18th November 23:19

RDMcG

Original Poster:

15,875 posts

166 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
Look at any photograph of a British city from (say 1958) and you will see a huge preponderance of domestically produce cars. By the way, look at the US from the same period and the same will apply. Of course there were some wonderful cars at the pinnacle, but where the average buyer sat the cars were good but a little dull.

Roll forward and the first low quality Japanese stuff appeared, followed by low quality Korean stuff. It was cheap and economical though and it gradually got MUCH better at the same time as domestic production was inefficient and of declining quality.

Forget all the Mercedes/Porsche/ Ferrari stuff...rare and hens' teeth with tiny volumes so did not matter. VW,Toyota,Renault and the rest were on the move while domestic was increasingly strangled by unions and regulation. In the US a backward-looking industry produced big old car and some muscle cars and sneered at the emergency of the little foreign junk.

Very little was produced for enthusiasts...the Jag was closest, but then people like BMW were producing quality product like the 2002 which I remember fondly in my young days. Tastes had changed and the underinvestment domestically was showing. IN the end, the quality was much lower than the Germans and the Japanese, and , astonishingly, the Korean cars that had started with thing like the abominable Hyundai Pony.

Now we will start to proclaim the awful Chinese junk ( no not the boat) when it arrives. It will be bad, then good, then excellent. The secret it to make the intro product so cheap that people will accept the problems and then build up the market to good product.

At the high end like JLR, the product must be bulletproof. No excuses.

For instance Porsche makes a very high quality product. (Yes, I have some, but not a purist, and am well aware of exploding GT3s). the statistics for the volume stuff like Macans and the like are very good. Toyota/Lexus/Kia make very good product and have the resources to develop new stuff. VW is putting $50 Billion into electric and sharing the cost across all of its Marques. The Taycan is really a badge-engineered ( but good ) platform for all of the others. This the development cost is manageable.

As I posted to start the thread....it is worrying for JLR.
I take no satisfaction either. These brands have important and impressive history and it would be a crying shame to lost them.


cardigankid

8,500 posts

171 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
JLR could yet be saved. But they would need to get real in a way I don’t think they are capable of. And they would need to go to the politicians and tell them, if they want a range of BEV’s, they need to pay for them. Don't spend another penny of their own money on EV's. Use the existing technology until the tech and market settles down and they can see the best way to go. Do NOT throw the company's money into developmental technology.

They say now that they are a niche manufacturer - that's not what they were saying when they started redeveloping all these dealerships (which is of course at the dealership's cost). They thought they were the next Mercedes Benz, and they started believing their own publicity and behaving accordingly. They have got the dealerships now whether they need them or not. They need to get rid of all the marble halls and gin palace HQ's and production facilities they are not going to need and get back to basics, get rid of a whole tranche of airy fairy nonsense which is not mission critical. They need to understand where they are, instead of giving interviews to Autocar describing how they are going to take over the world. Speth must be about ready to shoot himself. Then they need to focus on what they are good at and do it brilliantly with total dedication, not pausing for a day an hour or a minute.

They need to get the right CEO (for pity's sake not Andy Palmer) and a top production guy, go into the factories, examine every assembly operation, every component and sack every manager, every employee and every supplier who is not up to scratch.

As far as engines are concerned they should get into a deal with BMW and use modified versions of their engines. And maybe they can get rid of the DPF problem, which is a direct result of poor design and inadequate product development. Imagine a Jag with a straight six again. They need to simplify the product range, ditch the RR Sport and the XE, facelift the XF so it looks more like what it was designed to be and less like a wannabe 5-series. Release the entry level Defender but make sutre that it is as robust as a Toyota Hi-Lux. Release some bargain stripped out XF's as Jag's entry model - like the 240 & 340 - style and performance at a good price - that's what people want from Jags. Facelift the XJ so it looks like something - frankly the X350 was a much more appealing car than the current scrapheap. Get into the F type and lose 200kg. Then you have a sports car that not only looks fabulous, which I accept it does, but can beat anything.

Most of all, get over this modern corporate disease of always having to pretend everything is wonderful, which just becomes self delusion. Get real.

Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 19th November 09:36

cardigankid

8,500 posts

171 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
MDL111 said:
Sure while you are at it with some state support for JLR, you might as well also throw a little money Aston Martin’s way - I wish them luck, but don’t see either of them them surviving as independent companies.
If the UK was not so dependent on imports, devaluing the currency could help to make the products more competitive in the world market - alas I don’t think that is an option
That’s the other thing they tried in the 60’s. The problem is that if you have turned your car industry into a politically manipulated branch of the welfare state, you might shelter it for a while by devaluation, but it remains inefficient, or even gets worse. Cost of supplies goes up then your cars are a. More expensive and b. Still ste.

And on the subject of quality, you get a 5 year old Porsche on a ramp, and a 5 year old Jaguar on the ramp next to it, and compare the condition of their suspension. Don’t kid yourselves.

So

19,666 posts

181 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
quotequote all
RDMcG said:
Look at any photograph of a British city from (say 1958) and you will see a huge preponderance of domestically produce cars. By the way, look at the US from the same period and the same will apply. Of course there were some wonderful cars at the pinnacle, but where the average buyer sat the cars were good but a little dull.

Roll forward and the first low quality Japanese stuff appeared, followed by low quality Korean stuff. It was cheap and economical though and it gradually got MUCH better at the same time as domestic production was inefficient and of declining quality.

Forget all the Mercedes/Porsche/ Ferrari stuff...rare and hens' teeth with tiny volumes so did not matter. VW,Toyota,Renault and the rest were on the move while domestic was increasingly strangled by unions and regulation. In the US a backward-looking industry produced big old car and some muscle cars and sneered at the emergency of the little foreign junk.

Very little was produced for enthusiasts...the Jag was closest, but then people like BMW were producing quality product like the 2002 which I remember fondly in my young days. Tastes had changed and the underinvestment domestically was showing. IN the end, the quality was much lower than the Germans and the Japanese, and , astonishingly, the Korean cars that had started with thing like the abominable Hyundai Pony.

Now we will start to proclaim the awful Chinese junk ( no not the boat) when it arrives. It will be bad, then good, then excellent. The secret it to make the intro product so cheap that people will accept the problems and then build up the market to good product.

At the high end like JLR, the product must be bulletproof. No excuses.

For instance Porsche makes a very high quality product. (Yes, I have some, but not a purist, and am well aware of exploding GT3s). the statistics for the volume stuff like Macans and the like are very good. Toyota/Lexus/Kia make very good product and have the resources to develop new stuff. VW is putting $50 Billion into electric and sharing the cost across all of its Marques. The Taycan is really a badge-engineered ( but good ) platform for all of the others. This the development cost is manageable.

As I posted to start the thread....it is worrying for JLR.
I take no satisfaction either. These brands have important and impressive history and it would be a crying shame to lost them.
Interesting post Ronan and I agree with you. Though I defer to your knowledge of 50s cars - I am much younger than you and don't remember them.

I really want JLR in the world. I just want them to be good. However prima facie there is too much work to do.