Future-proofing the AJP

Future-proofing the AJP

Author
Discussion

Byker28i

35,612 posts

184 months

Friday 11th June
quotequote all
So Mr Melling thinks he can add 120bhp - ish with new heads... another 30% for the 4.2...

Gazzab

18,871 posts

249 months

Friday 11th June
quotequote all
rev-erend said:
So has anyone actually call powers performance to see if new heads are actually available and if you need to
go down this alternative route?
On the fb chat it’s confirmed they are old new stock. So the moulds were destroyed.

Jhonno

4,034 posts

108 months

Friday 11th June
quotequote all
Gazzab said:
rev-erend said:
So has anyone actually call powers performance to see if new heads are actually available and if you need to
go down this alternative route?
On the fb chat it’s confirmed they are old new stock. So the moulds were destroyed.
Moulds may still exist with the original supplier/foundry..

Gazzab

18,871 posts

249 months

Friday 11th June
quotequote all
Jhonno said:
Gazzab said:
rev-erend said:
So has anyone actually call powers performance to see if new heads are actually available and if you need to
go down this alternative route?
On the fb chat it’s confirmed they are old new stock. So the moulds were destroyed.
Moulds may still exist with the original supplier/foundry..
They are confirmed to have been destroyed.

m4tti

5,012 posts

122 months

Friday 11th June
quotequote all
Ultimate performance cnc the speed six FFF head and are second to none. They produce works of art.

See what they can do. You do away with the variability of the (junk) TVR castings.

https://www.ultimatep.com/expertise/#cylinder-head...

Mr Cerbera

Original Poster:

4,774 posts

197 months

Sunday 13th June
quotequote all
Sorry, re-posting this as I deleted it by mistake....

For those of you who aren't interested in FaceBook, here are some comments from Mr. Melling, (The designer of the AJP8), that can be found on his 'Musings' account.

"Ok its now time for you guys to sort this.
We have been trying ,with lots of ideas to get an inexpensive cylinder heads, as you know you guys sent me a pair of heads, which shortly will have to be returned.

Our cost to date is just over £12k and course i want to get this completed.
1 Its very difficult to make the heads in billet ,looking at the section drawings you can imagine, but say if you insists ,then by lifting the cam and longer valves it can be done ,but then a new cam cover will be required.
To machine this would be -for the CNC model say £3000 For the actual machining 2 items £4000 =£8000pair.
The tooling initial £5000
So the full cost of the first pair would be £16000.
Future would be £8000.
If your going to get a number of you then the machine company may amortise the cost of the model and the tooling. Say £1000 on each pair delivered.
I am now looking .giving it ,more time.
2 the existing cylinder head design and casting them.
A pair of existing cylinder heads to be used as a sample and get a pattern company (there are lots in the internet,) and they stick machining allowance on the joint faces and then make a water jacket core ,the foundry can cast them, this is a very inexpensive way of casting . The castings you find a small business guy to machine them with a Bridgeport Mill and he machines them at a budget price, all you require to machine them is that mill and a boring head and 90 degree atachment. Any questions on this i can speak to the people doing the job.
3 if you decide to go for cast cylinder heads then (looking at the scruffy drawing ) you can see an outline in red ,that is the existing inlet port and valve position.the black line inlet port and valve is a suggestion to increase power and fuel consumption, this new port would give you another 35/40bhp. IF YOU WANT .this modification does not effect the exhausts or inlet ,or throttle body,
this modification can be done to your existing cylinder heads, let me know.
Initial pattern work £500, water jacket pattern £2500,machining £ 4000, casting £1000pair.
Initial cost £7000 .
Production £5000 pair.
4 A 4 valve pair of heads in billet would be about the same as the 2 valve, on cost and unit costs , easier and quicker,but the problem is it would need a new timing cover (inexpensive ) and cam cover ( inexpensive) but you would have over 500bhp ,a 4.2 with 460bhp.
I want you to decide what you want to do. And let me know. Get talking to the people who wanted new cylinder heads.
Also the heads you have what is wrong with them, get intouch with me."



Byker28i

35,612 posts

184 months

Sunday 13th June
quotequote all
and as I said previously...
Byker28i said:
So Mr Melling thinks he can add 120bhp - ish with new heads... another 30% for the 4.2...

Gazzab

18,871 posts

249 months

Sunday 13th June
quotequote all
Personally I am sceptical but the fb request is very confused.

m4tti

5,012 posts

122 months

Sunday 13th June
quotequote all
Hold up… the crew he used to work with tried to slap on some 4v heads many years back.

Is there enough room between rails

It would need proper prototyping, mapping and testing blah blah blah.

Edited by m4tti on Sunday 13th June 21:54

Byker28i

35,612 posts

184 months

Monday 14th June
quotequote all
but are the current heads so compromised that there's another 30% of power available with new heads? Is that possible?

AW111

6,862 posts

100 months

Monday 14th June
quotequote all
Byker28i said:
but are the current heads so compromised that there's another 30% of power available with new heads? Is that possible?
I can only see major power gains if there's a breathing problem at high RPM.

How quickly does the (stock) torque drop off at the top end?

Someone pls post a dyno graph.

Jhonno

4,034 posts

108 months

Monday 14th June
quotequote all
AW111 said:
Byker28i said:
but are the current heads so compromised that there's another 30% of power available with new heads? Is that possible?
I can only see major power gains if there's a breathing problem at high RPM.

How quickly does the (stock) torque drop off at the top end?

Someone pls post a dyno graph.
Power does tend to tail off over 6-6.5k

Demondad

463 posts

182 months

Monday 14th June
quotequote all
Personally I would be happy with new castings at £5k to keep as close to the originality of the engine. I'm not too bothered about another few HP but it would be nice. More important would be avoiding cracking heads as a sensible improvement. Without any options the future of the AJP8 and the 'real' Cerbera is looking bleak.

spitfire4v8

3,617 posts

148 months

Monday 14th June
quotequote all
Demondad said:
Personally I would be happy with new castings at £5k to keep as close to the originality of the engine. I'm not too bothered about another few HP but it would be nice. More important would be avoiding cracking heads as a sensible improvement. Without any options the future of the AJP8 and the 'real' Cerbera is looking bleak.
Is it though? it's not like we are down to the last 10 cerbs in the world? and most of us chatting here today probably won't be running cerbs in 20years time, and anyway the future of motoring is heading in a different direction.

I suspect we will have enough parts to keep the vast majority of cars running for as long as it's viable to do so. it's not like people are needing new blocks or heads every couple of years is it?

FarmyardPants

3,697 posts

185 months

Monday 14th June
quotequote all
Probably the rate of accidents that write the cars off but yield salvagable engine components exceeds the failure rate/need for replacements.

It doesn't take much to write off a cerbera - backwards into armco at 20mph is probably enough (sadly).

gruffalo

6,660 posts

193 months

Monday 14th June
quotequote all
Jhonno said:
AW111 said:
Byker28i said:
but are the current heads so compromised that there's another 30% of power available with new heads? Is that possible?
I can only see major power gains if there's a breathing problem at high RPM.

How quickly does the (stock) torque drop off at the top end?

Someone pls post a dyno graph.
Power does tend to tail off over 6-6.5k


The exhaust probably causes more of the drop off than the heads, if anything the heads are too big.

Byker28i

35,612 posts

184 months

Monday 14th June
quotequote all
Jhonno said:
AW111 said:
Byker28i said:
but are the current heads so compromised that there's another 30% of power available with new heads? Is that possible?
I can only see major power gains if there's a breathing problem at high RPM.

How quickly does the (stock) torque drop off at the top end?

Someone pls post a dyno graph.
Power does tend to tail off over 6-6.5k
But is there 30% to be gained? It seems rather a lot
"but you would have over 500bhp ,a 4.2 with 460bhp." seeing as a good standard 4.2 from the factory was 340bhp


This is mine, ACT manifolds and exhaust, mapped and some other magic

gruffalo

6,660 posts

193 months

Monday 14th June
quotequote all
m4tti said:
Hold up… the crew he used to work with tried to slap on some 4v heads many years back.

Is there enough room between rails

It would need proper prototyping, mapping and testing blah blah blah.

Edited by m4tti on Sunday 13th June 21:54
This is the old RND project that they were trying to get people to sign up to.

Where would the Air Conditioning compressor and the Alternator go, they can't go down the sides because of the chassis rails.

The 16V heads may make the car more driveable but I don't see huge power advantages from them.

gruffalo

6,660 posts

193 months

Monday 14th June
quotequote all
Byker28i said:
But is there 30% to be gained? It seems rather a lot
"but you would have over 500bhp ,a 4.2 with 460bhp." seeing as a good standard 4.2 from the factory was 340bhp


This is mine, ACT manifolds and exhaust, mapped and some other magic
That is a strong 4.2:-)


Jhonno

4,034 posts

108 months

Monday 14th June
quotequote all
Byker28i said:
Jhonno said:
AW111 said:
Byker28i said:
but are the current heads so compromised that there's another 30% of power available with new heads? Is that possible?
I can only see major power gains if there's a breathing problem at high RPM.

How quickly does the (stock) torque drop off at the top end?

Someone pls post a dyno graph.
Power does tend to tail off over 6-6.5k
But is there 30% to be gained? It seems rather a lot
"but you would have over 500bhp ,a 4.2 with 460bhp." seeing as a good standard 4.2 from the factory was 340bhp


This is mine, ACT manifolds and exhaust, mapped and some other magic
I doubt the 30%, but.. Even an old A-Series/Pinto can make 100bhp/L..

There is power to be had out of the head. Imo.

I believe a 410bhp 4.2 exists also, and my 4.5 makes 430bhp.