MP4-12C photos and review/comparison

MP4-12C photos and review/comparison

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Discussion

1560

182 posts

169 months

Wednesday 5th October 2011
quotequote all
still haven't read any "big" problems,
only niggles,

sorry guys, for a UK-build-car that is NORMAL!!!!!!

and like always, don't buy a first series car,
wait for the second production year
or even better, the facelift

snaelro

88 posts

126 months

Wednesday 5th October 2011
quotequote all
ANDYCLAX said:
LMB.the point i was trying to make was that no customer cars were effected and the problem occured on a PP car,the window securing points were altered as a precaution.The main problem was that the PR promised us a perfect car,and because of that they are getting cut no slack,i think Mclaren have learnt a very expensive lesson,but if you look on any ferrari 458 forum,they are having just the same problems even after 18 months of production not just 3 months,ie 3 transmission failures in 750 miles,front lifter failure,brake caliper leaks,doors seals coming off,lights filling with water,air conditioning not working,ecu remap,steering failure,premature wearing of ceramics,plus may more and the more publicised ones.
This is not a dig at other manufacturers,it small volume production and problems happen,its how they are delt with that makes the difference,im more interested in the 98% that is world beating tecnology rather than the 2% that they have got wrong,but that is the British way wether it is a public or press attitude.And they will get it right,it just takes time
yes, problems happen. I think the disappointment comes from the fact that in the end, mclaren is no better than ferrari or porsche in their quest for perfection, exagerated by the fact that they showed a lot of arrogance and self confidence when they launched their car.
you mention some issues with the 458. well they seem to affect a limited number. it is not an excuse, but it happens. and there is a good 2 or 3000 458 on the roads.
mclaren delivered probably 100 or 200 cars, ALL with niggles. they actually knew the cars were faulty and not finished. from outside, it sounds as professional as a kit car company.
and they find new issues every month (leaking suspension in the test cars, doors, engine cover flying off, IRIS that never worked, overheating gearboxes, etc...)
most of those problems are electronic related, can be worrying considering the car dynamics rely entirely on computers...

ANDYCLAX

191 posts

135 months

Wednesday 5th October 2011
quotequote all
snaelro said:
ANDYCLAX said:
LMB.the point i was trying to make was that no customer cars were effected and the problem occured on a PP car,the window securing points were altered as a precaution.The main problem was that the PR promised us a perfect car,and because of that they are getting cut no slack,i think Mclaren have learnt a very expensive lesson,but if you look on any ferrari 458 forum,they are having just the same problems even after 18 months of production not just 3 months,ie 3 transmission failures in 750 miles,front lifter failure,brake caliper leaks,doors seals coming off,lights filling with water,air conditioning not working,ecu remap,steering failure,premature wearing of ceramics,plus may more and the more publicised ones.
This is not a dig at other manufacturers,it small volume production and problems happen,its how they are delt with that makes the difference,im more interested in the 98% that is world beating tecnology rather than the 2% that they have got wrong,but that is the British way wether it is a public or press attitude.And they will get it right,it just takes time
yes, problems happen. I think the disappointment comes from the fact that in the end, mclaren is no better than ferrari or porsche in their quest for perfection, exagerated by the fact that they showed a lot of arrogance and self confidence when they launched their car.
you mention some issues with the 458. well they seem to affect a limited number. it is not an excuse, but it happens. and there is a good 2 or 3000 458 on the roads.
mclaren delivered probably 100 or 200 cars, ALL with niggles. they actually knew the cars were faulty and not finished. from outside, it sounds as professional as a kit car company.
and they find new issues every month (leaking suspension in the test cars, doors, engine cover flying off, IRIS that never worked, overheating gearboxes, etc...)
most of those problems are electronic related, can be worrying considering the car dynamics rely entirely on computers...
I have mentioned that the PR have got it completely wrong,and when you have driven the car its easier to marvel in the 98% rather than worry about the 2%,i am in contact with several owners that feel the same,and its these people that will sell the car in the long run,as for the customer service,its streets ahead of the competition.All the above issues were sorted in a matter of days and people who took the cars were aware of the iris problem ,due to unforseen circumstances.As for the gearbox overheating ,there was only one (mine)due to driver error while operating the launch control.
There have been 100 cars delivered,all have some issues ,but mostly minor,thats why they are not shipping more untill this is sorted,and the build quaility is certainly excellent

snaelro

88 posts

126 months

Wednesday 5th October 2011
quotequote all
ANDYCLAX said:
for the customer service,its streets ahead of the competition.
[...]
There have been 100 cars delivered
that was my point. mclaren delivered 100 cars and stopped its production to focus on adressing the problems. it sounds normal that the customer service is excellent! (still they seem unable to give production dates or clear explanations on various issues like when is the IRIS coming)
the real test will be when 1000 or 2000 cars will be on the road or even more, in several years.



ANDYCLAX

191 posts

135 months

Thursday 6th October 2011
quotequote all
snaelro said:
ANDYCLAX said:
for the customer service,its streets ahead of the competition.
[...]
There have been 100 cars delivered
that was my point. mclaren delivered 100 cars and stopped its production to focus on adressing the problems. it sounds normal that the customer service is excellent! (still they seem unable to give production dates or clear explanations on various issues like when is the IRIS coming)
the real test will be when 1000 or 2000 cars will be on the road or even more, in several years.
The customers know when iris is coming,and they havent stopped production,they have stopped deliveries,there is now no hardware problems,so no need to stop production,its a software issue that will be solved in a couple of weeks,then all the cars can be delivered at the same time when its downloaded,only the customers that were expecting their cars in the next 3 weeks will be affected,everyone has been told of a 3 month delay,but thats been the same for all

Lambo FirstBlood

799 posts

150 months

Thursday 6th October 2011
quotequote all
ANDYCLAX said:
The customers know when iris is coming,and they havent stopped production,they have stopped deliveries,there is now no hardware problems,so no need to stop production,its a software issue that will be solved in a couple of weeks,then all the cars can be delivered at the same time when its downloaded,only the customers that were expecting their cars in the next 3 weeks will be affected,everyone has been told of a 3 month delay,but thats been the same for all
This differs somewhat from what I've been told from Mclaren directly. There is no final fix date for IRIS. I've been told they're aiming for the end of the year but no guarantees. I've also been told by the head of after sales that it's definitely hardware too.

ANDYCLAX

191 posts

135 months

Thursday 6th October 2011
quotequote all
Lambo FirstBlood said:
ANDYCLAX said:
The customers know when iris is coming,and they havent stopped production,they have stopped deliveries,there is now no hardware problems,so no need to stop production,its a software issue that will be solved in a couple of weeks,then all the cars can be delivered at the same time when its downloaded,only the customers that were expecting their cars in the next 3 weeks will be affected,everyone has been told of a 3 month delay,but thats been the same for all
This differs somewhat from what I've been told from Mclaren directly. There is no final fix date for IRIS. I've been told they're aiming for the end of the year but no guarantees. I've also been told by the head of after sales that it's definitely hardware too.
Christian Marti,head of european sales is suggesting january,how near can you get with something so complicated,and the small amount of hardware needed for the iris dosent effect the continued production of the car,there are a few small hardware improvements to come ,but many will not be on a recall basis,such as a different type of bolt securing the front suspension onto the carbon tub,perfectly safe,but on some cars causes a squeek.LMB,things are moving along daily,i dont see things differing too much,when i said customers know when its coming,we are all being told similar things,without it in writing im suggesting we have an idea,and we are not being left in the dark,afterall we all talk to Mclaren directly.

Edited by ANDYCLAX on Thursday 6th October 20:41

Maff

Original Poster:

603 posts

238 months

Thursday 6th October 2011
quotequote all
ANDYCLAX said:
Christian Marti,head of european sales is suggesting january,how near can you get with something so complicated,and the small amount of hardware needed for the iris dosent effect the continued production of the car,there are a few small hardware improvements to come ,but many will not be on a recall basis,such as a different type of bolt securing the front suspension onto the carbon tub,perfectly safe,but on some cars causes a squeek.LMB,things are moving along daily,i dont see things differing too much,when i said customers know when its coming,we are all being told similar things,without it in writing im suggesting we have an idea,and we are not being left in the dark
Its unfortunately a bit more than software issues. My car is currently back with McLaren with a tech from the factory looking at the numerous non-software issues, and my business partners car was collected today, along with the software faults that all cars have, his has gone back for all hardware related faults/failures and paint defects.

Whilst the car is superb to drive and be in as a driving experience, the customer satisfaction experience still leaves room for improvement, which to be fair McLaren are working on. However, with the issues our two cars have (numerous stupid software faults aside, two of which keep putting my car in limp mode) have I do sometimes wonder what their test engineers were doing for 5+ years.



JamieBeeston

9,258 posts

236 months

Thursday 6th October 2011
quotequote all
Maff said:
ANDYCLAX said:
Christian Marti,head of european sales is suggesting january,how near can you get with something so complicated,and the small amount of hardware needed for the iris dosent effect the continued production of the car,there are a few small hardware improvements to come ,but many will not be on a recall basis,such as a different type of bolt securing the front suspension onto the carbon tub,perfectly safe,but on some cars causes a squeek.LMB,things are moving along daily,i dont see things differing too much,when i said customers know when its coming,we are all being told similar things,without it in writing im suggesting we have an idea,and we are not being left in the dark
Its unfortunately a bit more than software issues. My car is currently back with McLaren with a tech from the factory looking at the numerous non-software issues, and my business partners car was collected today, along with the software faults that all cars have, his has gone back for all hardware related faults/failures and paint defects.

Whilst the car is superb to drive and be in as a driving experience, the customer satisfaction experience still leaves room for improvement, which to be fair McLaren are working on. However, with the issues our two cars have (numerous stupid software faults aside, two of which keep putting my car in limp mode) have I do sometimes wonder what their test engineers were doing for 5+ years.
Can you not ask them for an F1 courtesy car smile

Think of it this way, they will always owe you a favour now, and you're known by some big people!

Just a shame you dont any any other cars to pootle around in hey Matt smile

snaelro

88 posts

126 months

Thursday 6th October 2011
quotequote all
Lambo FirstBlood said:
This differs somewhat from what I've been told from Mclaren directly. There is no final fix date for IRIS. I've been told they're aiming for the end of the year but no guarantees. I've also been told by the head of after sales that it's definitely hardware too.
and have you got rid of your mclaren?

ANDYCLAX

191 posts

135 months

Thursday 6th October 2011
quotequote all
Maff said:
ANDYCLAX said:
Christian Marti,head of european sales is suggesting january,how near can you get with something so complicated,and the small amount of hardware needed for the iris dosent effect the continued production of the car,there are a few small hardware improvements to come ,but many will not be on a recall basis,such as a different type of bolt securing the front suspension onto the carbon tub,perfectly safe,but on some cars causes a squeek.LMB,things are moving along daily,i dont see things differing too much,when i said customers know when its coming,we are all being told similar things,without it in writing im suggesting we have an idea,and we are not being left in the dark
Its unfortunately a bit more than software issues. My car is currently back with McLaren with a tech from the factory looking at the numerous non-software issues, and my business partners car was collected today, along with the software faults that all cars have, his has gone back for all hardware related faults/failures and paint defects.

Whilst the car is superb to drive and be in as a driving experience, the customer satisfaction experience still leaves room for improvement, which to be fair McLaren are working on. However, with the issues our two cars have (numerous stupid software faults aside, two of which keep putting my car in limp mode) have I do sometimes wonder what their test engineers were doing for 5+ years.
I agree,that all the first cars have problems and are being worked through,this is why deliveries have stopped,but production hasnt,so one would assume those issues have been delt with on the line,and its not good PR to say the least,but as you say they are on to it very quickly.,but im sorry to hear about your problems,are they minor enough to be fixed quickly do you think?

Frik

12,963 posts

214 months

Thursday 6th October 2011
quotequote all
LongLiveTazio said:
Whilst I agree some of that may well be true - and I can imagine just how difficult getting going must have been - my gut reaction is that it isn't a low volume car. 1,000 units were originally proposed to be built this year. It's also part of a 12-year offensive of new models to compete with established brands. 'Low volume' has the kind of kit car connotations they wanted to stay away from.
I said low volume, not "low volume". Porsche make about 40,000 911s a year.

LongLiveTazio

2,714 posts

168 months

Thursday 6th October 2011
quotequote all
Frik said:
I said low volume, not "low volume". Porsche make about 40,000 911s a year.
Not sure what your point is. McLaren aren't Caterham or Ginetta, nor does Ron Dennis aspire to be anything other than perfect. From the architecture of their base to what they originally promised they have set out, and more importantly, claimed to be able to do things *significantly better* than their rivals.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating and unfortunately it's scrambled eggs á la face.

Lambo FirstBlood

799 posts

150 months

Thursday 6th October 2011
quotequote all
snaelro said:
and have you got rid of your mclaren?
It's being collected tomorrow. I did try to live with it for another week or two after I posted that I was going to sell it but the problems just got worse and more frequent. On Saturday, at different times, I was told by the computer I had 4 punctures, the airbags weren't working, the air brake wasn't working, the air brake then got stuck, and the car told me that the passenger seat belt was not fastened even though no passenger was in the car.

Provided they get rid of the car quickly and I'm not out of pocket, I am prepared to give Mclaren and the dealer another chance at a later date, but I get a very strong sense from the people I talk to there, that whilst they hope to have some fixes in the next 2-3 weeks, they are a LONG way from fixes for all of this stuff and the fact that production has now stopped highlights just how far away they are.


JamieBeeston

9,258 posts

236 months

Thursday 6th October 2011
quotequote all
Lambo FirstBlood said:
snaelro said:
and have you got rid of your mclaren?
It's being collected tomorrow. I did try to live with it for another week or two after I posted that I was going to sell it but the problems just got worse and more frequent. On Saturday, at different times, I was told by the computer I had 4 punctures, the airbags weren't working, the air brake wasn't working, the air brake then got stuck, and the car told me that the passenger seat belt was not fastened even though no passenger was in the car.

Provided they get rid of the car quickly and I'm not out of pocket, I am prepared to give Mclaren and the dealer another chance at a later date, but I get a very strong sense from the people I talk to there, that whilst they hope to have some fixes in the next 2-3 weeks, they are a LONG way from fixes for all of this stuff and the fact that production has now stopped highlights just how far away they are.
Ouch! There speaks the voice of an owner!

kryten

597 posts

196 months

Thursday 6th October 2011
quotequote all

Hmmm, as someone waiting for a car, its actually quite worrying. When I first saw the pictures I thought it looked a bit Lotus (looks much better 'for real') and all the problems remind me of owning a Lotus!

What is really surprising (and disappointing) is that these don't seem to be isolated build issues with a few particular cars. They seem to suggest major flaws in development, testing and production processes.

Having a second test drive in a couple of weeks in a demo car with the ceramics on roads near me, so will see how that goes - I guess the 3 month delay gives me a bit longer to see if/how/when they do sort all the issues...

groak

3,254 posts

150 months

Thursday 6th October 2011
quotequote all
I'm a bit shocked by this thread, particularly the comments from LFB and Maff, both of whom obviously approached their MP4-12C ownership with total positivity.

As a very happy Ferrari driver slightly overdue to upgrade a well-loved 430, I'd been considering both the MP4 and 570-4 as well as Ferrari's 458. But this thread has been an eye-opener and I'm sure I'm not alone in being grateful that these and other MP4 owners have been frank and honest about their experiences.












Beefmeister

16,482 posts

201 months

Friday 7th October 2011
quotequote all
This really is shocking to me, as an automotive engineer. I can't imagine any of the companies I've worked for (Ford, Jag, LR, Aston, Fiat to name a few) ever getting away with half of the faults the MP4 has had at launch.

To say 'Yes, you can have your car but no infotainment system for 3 months' is baffling. I just can't understand why they would let cars go out the door with known issues. As has been said before, what exactly was going on in the development testing phase?

Did they purely concentrate on the drivetrain? That seems to be sorted, but the electronics reek of a 1980s Rover.

Genuinely shocked and frankly annoyed that they have dropped the ball so much - they had the opportunity to smash Ferrari with this car, and they are just going to end up a laughing stock and lose customers.

Such a shame, such a waste.

jtremlett

1,089 posts

193 months

Friday 7th October 2011
quotequote all
Maff said:
...I do sometimes wonder what their test engineers were doing for 5+ years.
Enjoying themselves testing Ferraris...?;)

Beefmeister said:
...To say 'Yes, you can have your car but no infotainment system for 3 months' is baffling. I just can't understand why they would let cars go out the door with known issues. As has been said before, what exactly was going on in the development testing phase?...
Whilst I am surprised by all the faults being reported (and surprised by how forgiving some are) and I think it is clear they shouldn't have started deliveries for perhaps another 6 months, the pressures to get cars out must have been huge. Both from the point of view of getting money in to offset the up front expenditure and also from customers wanting their cars.

Jonathan

revrange

1,177 posts

155 months

Friday 7th October 2011
quotequote all
Are cars being delivered yet in Italy, USA etc?

Sounds like they sent 100 guniea pig cars out there in the UK?

As another poster said, if it was one friday afternoon car, i think people would be ok with it, but the same faults across most of these cars, isn't good. I guess its going to take a good few months to iron those out.