Engine rebuild

Engine rebuild

Author
Discussion

Raven Flyer

1,587 posts

179 months

Monday 13th January
quotequote all
That gas flow work looks like it could release some interesting extra power!

rkanaga

328 posts

175 months

Tuesday 14th January
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rossyl said:
Amazing thread

A questions if you don't mind

- Do de-catted cars pass MOT requirements, or, are you refitting the CATs before an MOT?

- Also, is there any way at all to tell if your pre-LP Gallardo's CATs are disintegrating?


Yes I was wondering that as well

That V10 is a thing of beauty seen like that though!

Thanks very much

4321go

Original Poster:

553 posts

142 months

Friday 17th January
quotequote all
A couple of short updates today. I promised “ancillaries”, but first.......

Remember the talk on torque (plates)? Before the cylinder liners are honed to their final finish, thick aluminium plates are bolted down onto the block, deforming it in exactly the same way that the torqued-down cylinder heads do? And that was one of the things that delayed the final finishing of my block; the engineering company doing the machining had to make their own set as Ricky’s extant pair were too deep for their equipment to deal with?

Well, here are the “offending” items. A fairly hefty investment in billet aluminium for what is an uncommon operation on a relatively rare engine!


olv

97 posts

170 months

Friday 17th January
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Well I suppose you could make some furniture from them to get your money worth.

Superleg48

945 posts

88 months

Friday 17th January
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They could be exotic speaker carcasses for the latest B&O creation....

4321go

Original Poster:

553 posts

142 months

Friday 17th January
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Oh, they’re perfectly usable! Just not by the company that Ricky was using. That’s not to say that they won’t be used for their intended purpose in the future.........

4321go

Original Poster:

553 posts

142 months

Friday 17th January
quotequote all
As for the ancillaries.....

All of the ancillaries are accessible with the engine in situ, so there’s no need to replace any of them as a precaution whilst the engine is out, as is sometimes done with (for example) water pumps when servicing cam belts. And none of the various pumps, etc. are “serviceable” in the conventional sense. Their component pieces aren’t available separately. When they fail, then there’s little option but to replace the whole unit. And we’re talking Lambo prices here! So it’s a case of, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!”

That said......

The water pump was stripped and inspected. There was little wear, so it’s been reassembled and refitted. A new water pump is £684 (inc.)

Same goes for the oil pump (Praise the Lord!!).

If the oil pump fails in a “wet sump” engine then the oil pressure will immediately drop and the red warning light will illuminate on your dash. If you’re sensible and pull over/switch off immediately, then you might get lucky and cause no damage whatsoever! Continue running without oil pressure for a few seconds and you may need a crank grind and new camshafts.

But with a “dry sump” engine two oil pumps are required, although they’re usually combined into the one unit. The “feed” pump feeds the oil galleries with pressurised lubricating oil. Once it’s done it’s lubrication work, the oil falls to the bottom of the engine, from where it is sucked up by the “scavenge” pump (or “pumps”) and returned to the remote oil tank. There is very little volume beneath the crank in which oil can pool. So the scavenge pump must have a higher capacity than the feed pump, to ensure that all of the feed oil is scavenged back to the oil tank and that none remains pooled below crank.

If the scavenge pump fails in a dry sump engine, then in a very short space of time, there will be enough oil accumulated in the bottom of the engine to cause an hydraulic lock. In simple terms, with the pistons thrashing up and down above accumulating oil, sooner rather than later the engine will be trying to compress the incompressible oil. The next event will be catastrophic engine failure. All this goes some way to explaining the cost of a replacement oil pump (that, and the fact that it has a Lamborghini bull cast into it!): £3966 (Yes, you read that right.....)

This (and the cost of a new crank) was one of the reasons why I decided to have my engine rebuilt. Having de-catted it and therefore removed the most likely cause of failure, I could have probable continued to happily run it for many thousand of miles more, as long as I poured oil in (remember: 4 litres or more per thousand miles of gentle driving, and a litre per hundred miles when pressing on!!). But if the engine had gone bang, then in addition to the work that we’ve already undertaken, you could have added (as a minimum) a new crankshaft (£4626) and oil pump (which would have almost certainly been damaged by debris in the oil).

As was, Ricky stripped, cleaned, inspected, declared healthy and reassembled my old pump.

Phew!

(This is what your £4000 buys you. Yes, all of it! Bargain, eh?)



The only ancillary that has required replacement is the HVAC pump (Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning). Infrequently (but nonetheless, very annoyingly) in hot weather, when in traffic (or just driving slowly) after the engine had been working hard, the air con pump would cut in and the engine would immediately stall! This (I surmise) is because the pump was stuck at its highest setting. The pump has a variable angle swashplate allowing it’s capacity to be infinitely varied between zero and 100%. Stuck at 100%, when it’s internal clutch engaged, the engine was immediately robbed of enough power to cause it to stall!! A new Nippon-Denso HVAC pump (OEM) is £961. We’ve fitted an identical Lucas unit for less than half of that price.

The alternator and starter motor both sit low down in the engine bay. The back of the alternator was removed to clean out “organic debris” (read: leaf-mould and general crud!), but other than that, both work and were replaced untouched, save for a quick clean.


Edited by 4321go on Friday 17th January 22:53

Megaflow

7,109 posts

180 months

Saturday 18th January
quotequote all
4321go said:
As for the ancillaries.....

All of the ancillaries are accessible with the engine in situ, so there’s no need to replace any of them as a precaution whilst the engine is out, as is sometimes done with (for example) water pumps when servicing cam belts. And none of the various pumps, etc. are “serviceable” in the conventional sense. Their component pieces aren’t available separately. When they fail, then there’s little option but to replace the whole unit. And we’re talking Lambo prices here! So it’s a case of, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!”

That said......

The water pump was stripped and inspected. There was little wear, so it’s been reassembled and refitted. A new water pump is £684 (inc.)

Same goes for the oil pump (Praise the Lord!!).

If the oil pump fails in a “wet sump” engine then the oil pressure will immediately drop and the red warning light will illuminate on your dash. If you’re sensible and pull over/switch off immediately, then you might get lucky and cause no damage whatsoever! Continue running without oil pressure for a few seconds and you may need a crank grind and new camshafts.

But with a “dry sump” engine two oil pumps are required, although they’re usually combined into the one unit. The “feed” pump feeds the oil galleries with pressurised lubricating oil. Once it’s done it’s lubrication work, the oil falls to the bottom of the engine, from where it is sucked up by the “scavenge” pump (or “pumps”) and returned to the remote oil tank. There is very little volume beneath the crank in which oil can pool. So the scavenge pump must have a higher capacity than the feed pump, to ensure that all of the feed oil is scavenged back to the oil tank and that none remains pooled below crank.

If the scavenge pump fails in a dry sump engine, then in a very short space of time, there will be enough oil accumulated in the bottom of the engine to cause an hydraulic lock. In simple terms, with the pistons thrashing up and down above accumulating oil, sooner rather than later the engine will be trying to compress the incompressible oil. The next event will be catastrophic engine failure. All this goes some way to explaining the cost of a replacement oil pump (that, and the fact that it has a Lamborghini bull cast into it!): £3966 (Yes, you read that right.....)

This (and the cost of a new crank) was one of the reasons why I decided to have my engine rebuilt. Having de-catted it and therefore removed the most likely cause of failure, I could have probable continued to happily run it for many thousand of miles more, as long as I poured oil in (remember: 4 litres or more per thousand miles of gentle driving, and a litre per hundred miles when pressing on!!). But if the engine had gone bang, then in addition to the work that we’ve already undertaken, you could have added (as a minimum) a new crankshaft (£4626) and oil pump (which would have almost certainly been damaged by debris in the oil).

As was, Ricky stripped, cleaned, inspected, declared healthy and reassembled my old pump.

Phew!

(This is what your £4000 buys you. Yes, all of it! Bargain, eh?)



The only ancillary that has required replacement is the HVAC pump (Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning). Infrequently (but nonetheless, very annoyingly) in hot weather, when in traffic (or just driving slowly) after the engine had been working hard, the air con pump would cut in and the engine would immediately stall! This (I surmise) is because the pump was stuck at its highest setting. The pump has a variable angle swashplate allowing it’s capacity to be infinitely varied between zero and 100%. Stuck at 100%, when it’s internal clutch engaged, the engine was immediately robbed of enough power to cause it to stall!! A new Nippon-Denso HVAC pump (OEM) is £961. We’ve fitted an identical Lucas unit for less than half of that price.

The alternator and starter motor both sit low down in the engine bay. The back of the alternator was removed to clean out “organic debris” (read: leaf-mould and general crud!), but other than that, both work and were replaced untouched, save for a quick clean.


Edited by 4321go on Friday 17th January 22:53
Four grand for an oil pump!

yikes

As a Cost Engineer for an engine manufacturer, I am not going to tell you what my quick back of fag packet cost, not price, from the photo to have posted is, I don't like to make grown men cry!

hehe

200Plus Club

7,229 posts

233 months

Saturday 18th January
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I'm guestimating less than £100?

Raven Flyer

1,587 posts

179 months

Wednesday 22nd January
quotequote all
200Plus Club said:
I'm guestimating less than £100?
For a run of a 1000, I agree.

As a one off, machined from billets, it would still be way below the price that Lambo are asking.

4321go

Original Poster:

553 posts

142 months

Tuesday 25th February
quotequote all
Well, we’re almost there.......



But first, I need to take you back a bit. And step somewhat off topic. The title of this thread is “Engine Rebuild”. So let’s look at a gearbox rebuild instead. Don’t worry, we won’t dwell on it too long; they mystify me too!

When I bought the car (some 65,000 miles ago) second gear was a little bolshy. And it hasn’t improved with age. But shifting around second wasn’t a problem, and once the ‘box was warm you could wrestler it into second if you really wanted to. But it wasn’t a pleasant operation. Ricky has at least as many Gallardo/Gen1 R8 gearboxes knocking about as he does engines (well, they DO tend to come in pairs!) so it made sense to have him open mine up and inspect it.



And yet again, he expressed genuine surprise at how little wear was evident, given the mileage. However, there WAS wear visible on the teeth of both the second gear gear-wheel and the engagement teeth within the locking collar of the second gear synchro set.

Sorry, no photos, largely because it looks like such light wear that I didn’t bother! I’ve only just started to wear reading glasses, and my near-vision is still pretty good without them, yet I had to look really carefully to see the rounding of the engagement faces of the gear teeth. But Ricky assures me that it’s this almost insignificant wear that was the culprit. As ever, prices are silly (but actually comparable to Audi’s prices for the Gen 1 R8, who’s Graziano-supplied gearbox is almost identical). Writing this at home, I’ve just looked at the Eurospares website for the prices, but I’m fairly sure that they’re quite wrong. I’ll edit this post with the actual prices once I’ve looked them out.



More surprising was the almost (but not quite) identical wear to the fourth gear gear-set. I’ve not noticed any difficulties with fourth gear, but Ricky assures me that I would have, probably sooner rather than later. So we elected to also replace both fourth and its corresponding synchro set (and they’re even pricier than second!). However, whilst the fourth gear gear-wheel is available, the synchro set isn’t! Despite having done 106,000 miles, the actual synchro rings were good; Ricky wouldn’t have bothered replacing them alone. But the engagement teeth within the locking collar were worn, and reinstalling it would result in premature wear of the brand new fourth gear. Luckily, Ricky dismantled a couple of his spare ‘boxes and the second one yielded a good-as-new fourth gear locking collar. One of the very many advantages of having your engine rebuilt by someone who really knows his stuff!



Several runs through the parts washer later and the ‘box was reassembled with new bearings throughout. Some of the gear wheels require heating to expand them before they are dropped onto the shaft. Amusingly, Ricky uses a (very) small domestic countertop oven/grill.



Reinstalled on the car, it was pretty much ready to start........

Trev450

5,926 posts

127 months

Tuesday 25th February
quotequote all
I'm pleased to hear that things are progressing well and that Ricky is working his magic.

4321go

Original Poster:

553 posts

142 months

Tuesday 25th February
quotequote all
Cheers, Trev. Keep it under your hat, but we’re very close to finishing now. The engine was started for the first time early last week; without the silencers or air boxes, just in case it needed to be removed again. We’ve bought a couple of pairs of stainless exhaust clamps (Hill Engineering, see here https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... ) but we were awaiting the ceramic inserts for these from Lamborghini. They arrived yesterday and the reassembly of the rear end began today.

And then annoyingly, whilst getting the engine up to temperature this afternoon, it sprang two leaks. Neither are from the rebuilt engine or gearbox, but from some of the only hoses that weren’t already renewed! The coolant leak is a cheap and simple fix; it’s just a braided hose with crimped clips at either end. The oil leak is more costly. Just about all of the oil hoses have already been replaced as they were all looking rather “used”. One of the few original oil hoses has developed a leak where a flexible section is joined to a rigid length. Although it’s almost certainly a result of it being disturbed during removal/refitting, it would probably have failed soon anyway. Sooner it goes when it’s on Ricky’s lift, rather than on the road. A new pipe is available from Italy, but is typically pricy, being unique to the pre-LP engine.

The offending pipe is accessible via the nearside rear wheelarch, once the wheel has been removed; so the build-up of the rear end can continue (although we’ve elected to do some last-minute painting of some more components as they were letting the side down).

Running in on the dyno will follow very shortly, once we’re leak free.......

Trev450

5,926 posts

127 months

Wednesday 26th February
quotequote all
Although not entirely unexpected, these lesser issues are still frustrating nonetheless. Hopefully progress will be swift after these issues are resolved and the move to getting back behind the wheel will not be too far away.

TobyPS

6 posts

11 months

Thursday 27th February
quotequote all
Simon.

Very interesting thread. Hope it comes together soon.

I've seen your car on the top floor of the work car park in the past. How on Earth did you manage to get it up there (serious question!)?

4321go

Original Poster:

553 posts

142 months

Friday 28th February
quotequote all
Carefully rofl

Seriously, there’s always some berk right up my arse on the ramps. And those little kerbs on said ramps are a pain; I thoroughly recommend Alloygators. It’ll be back in service as my daily driver just as soon as it’s finished and run in.

jakesmith

7,136 posts

126 months

Saturday 29th February
quotequote all
Did you expect it to take this long? 15 months so far isn’t it?

4321go

Original Poster:

553 posts

142 months

Saturday 29th February
quotequote all
No. Yes. Nearly there.........

OLDBENZ

226 posts

91 months

Sunday 1st March
quotequote all
4321go said:
Carefully rofl

Seriously, there’s always some berk right up my arse on the ramps. And those little kerbs on said ramps are a pain; I thoroughly recommend Alloygators. It’ll be back in service as my daily driver just as soon as it’s finished and run in.
"Alloygators" - that explains why the tyres look undersized on the wheels in some pictures - its not the rims sticking out - its your Alloygators!

Probably a sensible mod. The day I took delivery of my new Gallardo in 2005 I kerbed a wheel in our underground carpark on a very narrow ramp with high kerbs. Spoilt a day I had been looking forward to for months and still makes me wince when I think about it.

Do not worry about the rebuild taking a lifetime. You will always have the historic tax exemption and no MOT to look forward to.laugh

sambalee

57 posts

114 months

Thursday 5th March
quotequote all
I'm just jumping in here to join the party and was chatting to Simon yesterday.

I suppose I hope never to have to rebuild my engine (04 manual), but from what I read on the thread I certainly know who would be doing it!

Lee
@lambolamblee