Collecting Cars auction results

Collecting Cars auction results

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rat rod

1,213 posts

27 months

Saturday 28th November 2020
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OSMojo said:
They'd still have to have at least be registered bidders though (credit card on file etc). I second what you said, I too mean no offence to genuine PHers, but it is a problem with bitter dreamers.
I'm not a registered bidder and can read questions and answers but just can't ask a question myself until i register ,

Never very keen on leaving my card retails on the internet no matter how secure they tell me it is.

Just me ,l'm a dinosaur in this modern world,

Cheib

20,003 posts

137 months

Saturday 28th November 2020
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rat rod said:
OSMojo said:
The main problem for anyone listing their car on CC IMO is this very thread, people who have no intention of bidding and / or cannot afford to, slagging off and impacting seller's assets, questioning everything and anything, groundless scare mongering.

Then when you look at their 'garages' they either don't show one, or they have a 300zx 'lowered' with bake bean can exhausts and half of Halfords glued on it, and there they are slagging of someones Enzo "Are wouldn't buy it, naaa, too risky, I think it might have a broken chassis, I think it might be clocked, a mate of my mates dads cousin's mum told me it's not originally red, it was factory pink"

On CC you can only post questions if you are bidding, keeps out people who have no interest in the car, or who can't afford it. So they come on here and puke.

Edited by OSMojo on Saturday 28th November 20:14
Been thinking the same,CC have contacted me regarding listing a couple of my cars that i've been thinking about selling.

The two things that put me off is the open E mails and questions for all to read including any none buyers ,just watchers.

And the washer woman line that is the PH forum who have no interest in your car apart from bad mouthing it with no intention of buying
it or anyone else's for that matter, Apologies to all the genuine P H contributors .

For that reason alone have sat on the fence about entering them on said auction.
The system works absolutely fine on Bring A Trailer and is left there in posterity for all cars whether they sell or not. I don’t know if there’s any moderation but I’ve looked at a few cars about which there has been healthy debate. I imagine if someone raises allegations of say historical damage without proof I imagine it gets deleted.

OSMojo

49 posts

37 months

Saturday 28th November 2020
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Cheib said:
The system works absolutely fine on Bring A Trailer and is left there in posterity for all cars whether they sell or not. I don’t know if there’s any moderation but I’ve looked at a few cars about which there has been healthy debate. I imagine if someone raises allegations of say historical damage without proof I imagine it gets deleted.
The comments on CC itself are reasonable (from the ones I have seen) probably because people commenting are serious about the car in question.

My post is specifically about this CC thread on PH as it gives anyone the chance to comment and ruin the reputation of assets without any repercussions, and that many of these commenters on PH have no desire or inclination to bid for nor probably the funds.

21ATS

254 posts

34 months

Saturday 28th November 2020
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OSMojo said:
The comments on CC itself are reasonable (from the ones I have seen) probably because people commenting are serious about the car in question.

My post is specifically about this CC thread on PH as it gives anyone the chance to comment and ruin the reputation of assets without any repercussions, and that many of these commenters on PH have no desire or inclination to bid for nor probably the funds.
CC and PH monitor this thread. I know, I received a phone call from the owner of CC as a result of a conversation we were having on this thread, not about a specific vehicle but about how "managed" sales were being presented (I felt and still feel there is an element of misrepresentation and it's being used for motor traders to circumvent their legal obligations as a trader).

I was bidding on a car at the time, my screen name here is the same as my CC log in so I'm easy to find for CC. They reached out, we had a conversation and we agreed to disagree.

If it's a healthy debate or a reasonable question I see no problem. People are free to comment as they see fit on cars advertised for sale no matter what the platform.

Edited by 21ATS on Saturday 28th November 23:29

OSMojo

49 posts

37 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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21ATS said:
If it's a healthy debate or a reasonable question I see no problem. People are free to comment as they see fit on cars advertised for sale no matter what the platform.

Edited by 21ATS on Saturday 28th November 23:29
But that's precisely my point, on PH many times it is not 'healthy' or 'reasonable'. Furthermore, those who raise 'concerns' don't have any particular information privy only to them that they should be compelled to share, it's just public guess work, they have no interest in bidding on the car, nor maybe the funds, so why the questions? why the comments?

There are even comments by people ridiculing the colour combinations of vehicles for sale. Now if these people don't like let's say for example Lotus Esprit S2s in yellow, then they should go to the Lotus forum and declare it 'hello I'm Bill and I don't like yellow Esprits'. What these people should not do is wait for someone to list their pride and joy Yellow Esprit and then slag it off.

IMO even comments meant well, but by people who are not bidding, and have no knowledge of the car for auction should also stay out. essentially they have no business in commenting in the car. I wouldn't even dream of commenting negatively or raising a list of possible nightmares on a car I know nothing about that is in auction, why would I do that?



Edited by OSMojo on Sunday 29th November 00:13


Edited by OSMojo on Sunday 29th November 00:14

DMZ

123 posts

122 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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This thread drives traffic to the site, keeps the interest going, etc etc etc. It would be a lot worse if no one cared. No such thing as bad publicity as you know. No one needs to use it, plenty of other ways to buy & sell, but it seems to work well. Some dreamers and haters are tagging along but that’s how it is.

OSMojo

49 posts

37 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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DMZ said:
This thread drives traffic to the site, keeps the interest going, etc etc etc. It would be a lot worse if no one cared. No such thing as bad publicity as you know. No one needs to use it, plenty of other ways to buy & sell, but it seems to work well. Some dreamers and haters are tagging along but that’s how it is.
Well possibly for the owners of CC you might be right, I honestly do not know. But for the owners of the cars in question I can't imagine it's anything but a nightmare, just a few jealous mugs finally able to feel better about themselves by slagging off a car they can never have.

Mezzanine

5,786 posts

181 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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OSMojo said:
DMZ said:
This thread drives traffic to the site, keeps the interest going, etc etc etc. It would be a lot worse if no one cared. No such thing as bad publicity as you know. No one needs to use it, plenty of other ways to buy & sell, but it seems to work well. Some dreamers and haters are tagging along but that’s how it is.
Well possibly for the owners of CC you might be right, I honestly do not know. But for the owners of the cars in question I can't imagine it's anything but a nightmare, just a few jealous mugs finally able to feel better about themselves by slagging off a car they can never have.
I would have faith that someone who was genuinely interested in a car would probably be grown up enough to be able to filter out the comments from the mugs and come to their own conclusions on the sale and whether a comment has any validity.


fridaypassion

5,397 posts

190 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
OSMojo said:
The main problem for anyone listing their car on CC IMO is this very thread, people who have no intention of bidding and / or cannot afford to, slagging off and impacting seller's assets, questioning everything and anything, groundless scare mongering.

Then when you look at their 'garages' they either don't show one, or they have a 300zx 'lowered' with bake bean can exhausts and half of Halfords glued on it, and there they are slagging of someones Enzo "Are wouldn't buy it, naaa, too risky, I think it might have a broken chassis, I think it might be clocked, a mate of my mates dads cousin's mum told me it's not originally red, it was factory pink"

On CC you can only post questions if you are bidding, keeps out people who have no interest in the car, or who can't afford it. So they come on here and puke.

Edited by OSMojo on Saturday 28th November 20:14
I doubt the buyer of a Pista will value the opinion of spare room dwellers on here!

To the chap complaining about trade sellers on CC sorry what's the problem here? I know some people just have a pathological hatred of the trade but if a trade seller puts a car to auction 2 things happen. Firstly and in my opinion quite rightly your consumer rights fall away. Secondly you are buying a car below its normal retail price (in most cases). You can't have it all. I sold a personal car on CC and would consider putting business stock on there but it wouldn't be an attempt to circumvent anything it would be to either clear overage stock or in some cases the platform might lend itself to a particular type of car. Evidently if you have an RS 911 you'd be a fool to retail it when you can get a very good result on CC with no hassle.

Also with regards to this thread every outlet for every car sale in the country is subject to scrutiny on here. CC are a young company and unless they have a howler of a sale that attracts some very negative publicity then having exposure on here can only be a good thing for them.

SFTWend

272 posts

37 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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If you put something on the internet there is every possibility it will be commented on elsewhere on the internet.

I think it's pretty easy to distinguish opinion from fact. If I had wanted to buy the Exige or manual 360 spyder commented on recently
I'd have welcomed finding out one was worn out and the other was major accident repaired.

Cheib

20,003 posts

137 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
OSMojo said:
Cheib said:
The system works absolutely fine on Bring A Trailer and is left there in posterity for all cars whether they sell or not. I don’t know if there’s any moderation but I’ve looked at a few cars about which there has been healthy debate. I imagine if someone raises allegations of say historical damage without proof I imagine it gets deleted.
The comments on CC itself are reasonable (from the ones I have seen) probably because people commenting are serious about the car in question.

My post is specifically about this CC thread on PH as it gives anyone the chance to comment and ruin the reputation of assets without any repercussions, and that many of these commenters on PH have no desire or inclination to bid for nor probably the funds.
Wrong end of the stick then in my case ! The only person I would listen to if I was buying a car on CC is the person I pay to PPI it. I’ve only got close to bidding on one car this year on CC....I had it PPI’d. Didn’t buy it but I am not paying 6 figures for a car based on some photo’s and what the seller said about the car. It was a a Managed sale and whilst the description was largely accurate there were a couple of very obvious things that weren’t identified....nothing major and wouldn’t have stopped my buying it but would have pissed me off if I had bought the car.


21ATS

254 posts

34 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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fridaypassion said:
To the chap complaining about trade sellers on CC sorry what's the problem here? I know some people just have a pathological hatred of the trade but if a trade seller puts a car to auction 2 things happen. Firstly and in my opinion quite rightly your consumer rights fall away. Secondly you are buying a car below its normal retail price (in most cases). You can't have it all. I sold a personal car on CC and would consider putting business stock on there but it wouldn't be an attempt to circumvent anything it would be to either clear overage stock or in some cases the platform might lend itself to a particular type of car. Evidently if you have an RS 911 you'd be a fool to retail it when you can get a very good result on CC with no hassle.

Also with regards to this thread every outlet for every car sale in the country is subject to scrutiny on here. CC are a young company and unless they have a howler of a sale that attracts some very negative publicity then having exposure on here can only be a good thing for them.
If this is aimed at me and the misrepresentation of "managed" you are exactly the target audience for my complaint. You clearly have no grasp of the status or fundamental legal standing of CC which is why I believe they are misrepresenting certain sales.

Understand the following.

CC is not an "auction site" in any way shape or form similar to Bonhams, Silverstone or RM Auctions. They are an advertising platform no different to Autotrader or eBay for that matter, introducing two buyers either trader or private. The way you arrive at the final price for the vehicle is by way of a bidding format. You then pay CC 6% capped at £6000 for priveledge of allowing you to "bid" and win the car. Their involvement and legal responsibilites end there unless they have been involved materially in a vehicle being misdescribed.

When it started out there were two categories, Private or trade. All straightforward, a private sale is a private sale, no comebacks whatsoever, you could be buying a stolen vehcile and it's your problem, CC have no liability.

Trade on the other hand are selling through CC as though it's a forecourt sale, with all the legal ramifications that adds, then on top they have to also comply with distance selling regulations under consumer contract law, one thing they aren't doing is "disposing of a vehicle through auction at trade" as highlighted above CC is not a trade auction site.

Then a third murky category was introduce, "Managed Sale" this is where a private individual has employed a motor trader to sell their vehicle on CC. The motor trader markets the car, fields questions, may or may not make the vehicle available for viewings and by default lends a credibility to the sale that it may not have if it were a private sale (which it actually is). Now this could make sense if say the owner is abroad and actually handling the transaction is logitistically impossible. But it's being used by people who simply want to avoid much of what's being brought up in the last few posts, basically having to deal with the great unwashed.

My complaint is this. It is misrepresentation. A Motor Trader is selling a car and being paid to do so. They simply cannot choose to opt out of the legal obligations of being a motor trader claiming they are simply introducing two private parties for a transaction and are then exhonerated from any come back on the deal.

It would be an in interesting conversation to raise with Martin Lewis, it's just the sort of thing he likes to get get his teeth into, but he's a rather busy chap at the moment with everything going on.

I own an E Commerce business (not connected with a motor trade) and as a director it is my responsibility to clearly understand what the legal responsibilites are of trading in this manner. I'm looking at how CC operates and I beleive they are currently in a grey area when it comes to Consumer credit law and distance selling regs within that - but I believe the Managed Sale component goes beyond that. The thing is it will take either a court case or an intervention from a martin Lewis type to define.

So my interest is in the legalities.

On a seperate point, I also see very little selling at "Trade Price" bar a few early examples of cars when we were in the initial lockdown meltdown and in a period of unknown.



Edited by 21ATS on Sunday 29th November 10:47


Edited by 21ATS on Sunday 29th November 11:49

fridaypassion

5,397 posts

190 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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In what way is CC not an auction? It looks a awful lot like an auction?

What is the difference for me putting something out via Silverstone vs CC? If there's a legal difference educate me I'm genuinely interested. Every days a school day etc but to me why would I put a car through auction leaving myself exposed to the possibility of taking less for it and then still have all the weight of the CRA hanging over me?

As a punter I think its plain to see on some cars you would be completely nuts to buy one from auction with no comeback when you can have a dealer on the hook for 3/6/12 months.

The problem is people always want a bargain but can't handle it when something then goes wrong.

jtremlett

982 posts

184 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
OSMojo said:
The main problem for anyone listing their car on CC IMO is this very thread, people who have no intention of bidding and / or cannot afford to, slagging off and impacting seller's assets, questioning everything and anything, groundless scare mongering.

Then when you look at their 'garages' they either don't show one, or they have a 300zx 'lowered' with bake bean can exhausts and half of Halfords glued on it, and there they are slagging of someones Enzo "Are wouldn't buy it, naaa, too risky, I think it might have a broken chassis, I think it might be clocked, a mate of my mates dads cousin's mum told me it's not originally red, it was factory pink"

On CC you can only post questions if you are bidding, keeps out people who have no interest in the car, or who can't afford it. So they come on here and puke.
I really don't agree with this. I'm not looking to buy but if I were then I would want to know of any potential issues that might be known about and then do appropriate due diligence - and I'd be perfectly capable of filtering out the "I don't like yellow Esprit" comments. Nor do I see any great difference with similar discussions about cars listed on Pistonheads or elsewhere.

As it happens, the issues that came to light with the Ferrari 360 recently were from when I had been specifically asked about that car three years ago when it was for sale through an entirely different channel.

Obviously, if you're wanting to sell and what you are selling has issues you would rather weren't known then I can see that you might have a different view but I don't see any evidence of any untruths impacting upon the sale or selling price of a car. Also, as has been mentioned, the US Bring A Trailer site allows anyone to comment and those comments remain for posterity. It is then frequently soon clear, when an issue is raised, if a seller is being evasive or dishonest or equally if it is debunked. Presumably, from the number of listings on that site, it must work for buyers and sellers.

21ATS

254 posts

34 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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fridaypassion said:
In what way is CC not an auction? It looks a awful lot like an auction?

What is the difference for me putting something out via Silverstone vs CC? If there's a legal difference educate me I'm genuinely interested. Every days a school day etc but to me why would I put a car through auction leaving myself exposed to the possibility of taking less for it and then still have all the weight of the CRA hanging over me?

As a punter I think its plain to see on some cars you would be completely nuts to buy one from auction with no comeback when you can have a dealer on the hook for 3/6/12 months.

The problem is people always want a bargain but can't handle it when something then goes wrong.
So now it's starting to sink in?

At no point is a car consigned to CC (like it is to a bricks and mortar - now on line traditional auction). If you buy at Silverstone Auctions you are buying the car from Silverstone Auctions with the legal ramifications that entails. I.e. not as described, stolen/recovered etc.

CC simply advertise a car for sale, that's it. They are different to Autotrader and eBay fixed priced sales in that they don't advertise a fixed price, they allow potential buyers to make increasing offers until a final price is met or not.

If you buy a car via CC you are buying from the owner or a trader, the legal comeback on that vehicle is then determined by the vendors status.

A few months ago CC then created an entirely new category which didn't exist before, "Managed Sales" this is where a trader sells a car in a way that allows them to circumvent their legal responsibilites as a motor trader.

You then pay 6% to CC for advertising the car.

As a business model it's outstanding. From a sellers perespective it's outstanding. From a buyers perspective it's quite possibly the worst way to buy a car possible unless you completely understand who is and isn't responisble legally.

You clearly didn't graps this and I believe a lot of others don't either. I think a lot of people looking and bidding on this site genuinely believe they are buying a car from CC and that CC are a Motor Trader/Auction House. When the reality is all they are is an advertising platform.

ferrisbueller

25,988 posts

189 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
OSMojo said:
Cheib said:
The system works absolutely fine on Bring A Trailer and is left there in posterity for all cars whether they sell or not. I don’t know if there’s any moderation but I’ve looked at a few cars about which there has been healthy debate. I imagine if someone raises allegations of say historical damage without proof I imagine it gets deleted.
The comments on CC itself are reasonable (from the ones I have seen) probably because people commenting are serious about the car in question.

My post is specifically about this CC thread on PH as it gives anyone the chance to comment and ruin the reputation of assets without any repercussions, and that many of these commenters on PH have no desire or inclination to bid for nor probably the funds.
To suggest that people who can't afford something, or have no interest in buying that specific item, shouldn't be allowed to comment isn't great for a host of reasons and, if universally applied, would probably signal the demise of chunks of forums. I'm also dubious that someone who reads a comment about something like the colour of some seats wouldn't buy the car as a consequence, like the post was some sort of revelation that 5 high res pictures hadn't triggered.

If people make statements about cars which aren't supported by any evidence then I've no doubt those comments will be moderated, as they should be. Malicious mud slinging isn't fair game. What is fair game is asking questions or making a community aware of something that may need looking at. Issues were highlighted with a car here recently, which were validated and it was found there was some undeclared history. The impact of that is a significant five figure number.

In the same way posters don't have free reign to make unsubstantiated claims, then sellers can't be protected when issues aren't declared. If anything, buyers should have more protection. It's commonplace for people to ask questions about specific cars on threads across these forums as part of due diligence when looking at things. Virtual tyre kicking is a PH mainstay. There are numerous threads dedicated to it. Cars are frequently picked apart on these forums, though dealers are protected (you need to go elsewhere to find truths on that front, something I feel PH has been very wrong about historically, but that's a different thread).

Posters often point things out that potential buyers had not seen or were not aware of. And buyers can pick what is a relevant piece of information and what isn't. I certainly wouldn't feel happy buying something which some people knew had issues and finding that out at a later date having parted with the cash with no means to redress the situation (per 21ATS's repeated postings). I'm also uncomfortable watching someone potentially stumble into a situation unawares.


will_

5,998 posts

165 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
fridaypassion said:
In what way is CC not an auction? It looks a awful lot like an auction?

What is the difference for me putting something out via Silverstone vs CC? If there's a legal difference educate me I'm genuinely interested. Every days a school day etc but to me why would I put a car through auction leaving myself exposed to the possibility of taking less for it and then still have all the weight of the CRA hanging over me?

As a punter I think its plain to see on some cars you would be completely nuts to buy one from auction with no comeback when you can have a dealer on the hook for 3/6/12 months.

The problem is people always want a bargain but can't handle it when something then goes wrong.
CC are not acting as agents for the seller in the same way that Bonhams or Silverstone are.

CC is the equivalent of putting an advert on PH asking for offers. PH isn't held responsible if something goes wrong with that deal, and neither would CC be.

will_

5,998 posts

165 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
OSMojo said:
Well possibly for the owners of CC you might be right, I honestly do not know. But for the owners of the cars in question I can't imagine it's anything but a nightmare, just a few jealous mugs finally able to feel better about themselves by slagging off a car they can never have.
Do you have some examples of this? And is a problem which you perceive to be unique to cars advertised on CC?

bennno

7,001 posts

231 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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will_ said:
CC are not acting as agents for the seller in the same way that Bonhams or Silverstone are.

CC is the equivalent of putting an advert on PH asking for offers. PH isn't held responsible if something goes wrong with that deal, and neither would CC be.
That said there is a striking similarity between the descriptive text that accompanies every advert, so in some respects it’s far more akin to acting as an agent than just providing an advertising platform.

will_

5,998 posts

165 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
bennno said:
will_ said:
CC are not acting as agents for the seller in the same way that Bonhams or Silverstone are.

CC is the equivalent of putting an advert on PH asking for offers. PH isn't held responsible if something goes wrong with that deal, and neither would CC be.
That said there is a striking similarity between the descriptive text that accompanies every advert, so in some respects it’s far more akin to acting as an agent than just providing an advertising platform.
Any facts stated in the advert will have been provided or approved by the vendor, so it is the vendor which remain responsible. None of the rest would be actionable.

It's why "traditional" auction houses don't need to explain whether a consignor is "private" or "trade"; there's no such distinction, because it is a different sales format.
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