Collecting Cars auction results

Collecting Cars auction results

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fridaypassion

5,346 posts

189 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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21ATS said:
So now it's starting to sink in?

At no point is a car consigned to CC (like it is to a bricks and mortar - now on line traditional auction). If you buy at Silverstone Auctions you are buying the car from Silverstone Auctions with the legal ramifications that entails. I.e. not as described, stolen/recovered etc.

CC simply advertise a car for sale, that's it. They are different to Autotrader and eBay fixed priced sales in that they don't advertise a fixed price, they allow potential buyers to make increasing offers until a final price is met or not.

If you buy a car via CC you are buying from the owner or a trader, the legal comeback on that vehicle is then determined by the vendors status.

A few months ago CC then created an entirely new category which didn't exist before, "Managed Sales" this is where a trader sells a car in a way that allows them to circumvent their legal responsibilites as a motor trader.

You then pay 6% to CC for advertising the car.

As a business model it's outstanding. From a sellers perespective it's outstanding. From a buyers perspective it's quite possibly the worst way to buy a car possible unless you completely understand who is and isn't responisble legally.

You clearly didn't graps this and I believe a lot of others don't either. I think a lot of people looking and bidding on this site genuinely believe they are buying a car from CC and that CC are a Motor Trader/Auction House. When the reality is all they are is an advertising platform.
That's an interesting post which very nearly makes up for your condescending tone (for which there is no need).

It would be interesting to see tested as I would 100% not expect any come back of I had used CC to dispose of overage business stock. I guess you could draw up a tailored order. There will be a big lemon sold on there at some point its inevitable so I guess we will see in the end.

It doesn't change the fact that 99% of bidders would assume in my view correctly that they are buying with no warranty and as I previously commented on this thread I would not take the fact that Chris Harris is "involved" with the business as any degree of comfort that the car is right or not. They check HPI and after that its up to you just as Silverstone or whoever else would operate.

CC do encourage you to view the car prior to purchase and indeed the guy that bought the car I sold did just this.

At some stage people just need to take responsibility for their own actions and I don't think CC are misleading anyone. I think this on each listing:

"bidders must satisfy themselves as to the accuracy of the description, and conduct any research they feel is necessary before committing to a bid" is fair enough. They are telling you to check it out which you should do. CC is absolutely not a convenient outlet for dealers to swerve responsibility for the reasons I've stated in my earlier post. As a dealer you want it on your own platform with maximum margin on it not to risk something going for a loss.

I do however acknowledge that their system is wide open to someone sticking a right old bag of spanners on there and rinsing some poor unfortunate. I would say though that although I have first hand experience at the dodgy dealings of supposedly respected traders the very worst behaviour I've seen in my 10 years of specialist car trading has always come from private individuals.

Trevor555

2,423 posts

45 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
fridaypassion said:
21ATS said:
So now it's starting to sink in?

At no point is a car consigned to CC (like it is to a bricks and mortar - now on line traditional auction). If you buy at Silverstone Auctions you are buying the car from Silverstone Auctions with the legal ramifications that entails. I.e. not as described, stolen/recovered etc.

CC simply advertise a car for sale, that's it. They are different to Autotrader and eBay fixed priced sales in that they don't advertise a fixed price, they allow potential buyers to make increasing offers until a final price is met or not.

If you buy a car via CC you are buying from the owner or a trader, the legal comeback on that vehicle is then determined by the vendors status.

A few months ago CC then created an entirely new category which didn't exist before, "Managed Sales" this is where a trader sells a car in a way that allows them to circumvent their legal responsibilites as a motor trader.

You then pay 6% to CC for advertising the car.

As a business model it's outstanding. From a sellers perespective it's outstanding. From a buyers perspective it's quite possibly the worst way to buy a car possible unless you completely understand who is and isn't responisble legally.

You clearly didn't graps this and I believe a lot of others don't either. I think a lot of people looking and bidding on this site genuinely believe they are buying a car from CC and that CC are a Motor Trader/Auction House. When the reality is all they are is an advertising platform.
That's an interesting post which very nearly makes up for your condescending tone (for which there is no need).

It would be interesting to see tested as I would 100% not expect any come back of I had used CC to dispose of overage business stock. I guess you could draw up a tailored order. There will be a big lemon sold on there at some point its inevitable so I guess we will see in the end.
A tailored order?

One that exempts you from the sales of goods act, and the buyers statutory rights?

If you're a dealer, and you choose to sell to a member of the public, I didn't think there was any way you could get out of the legal implications of retailing to the public.

I'm happy to be educated.

21ATS

237 posts

33 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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bennno said:
That said there is a striking similarity between the descriptive text that accompanies every advert, so in some respects it’s far more akin to acting as an agent than just providing an advertising platform.
I think they prefer the term "Broker" in so much as they are simply brokering a deal and in no other way involved.

It's a sitatuation I came across by accident and until that point in time I didn't even know it was a thing.

I was interested in a car that was over my cash budget so I wanted to finance the difference. I spoke with the guy that has organised vehicle finance for me in the past (quite well known now due to social media) and he explained that dealing with these particular "brokers" was an absolute nightmare when it came to arranging finance.

You're effectively trying to finance a private transaction, there is zero comeback, zero liability, the private seller has to provide proof of ownership down to what he paid, how he paid for it and where the money came from (to satisfy money laundering laws). That's just the start. It was a real eye opener how many "dealers" are trading in this manner.

Once the transaction has completed the private seller then pays the broker a pre agreed fee or percentage of the transaction for the introduction.

CC has simply taken this business model on line with bid format but they've gone one better. They even remove the sellers fee completely and get the buyer to pay that also.

So the reality is selling on CC is probably more secure than using a traditional auction house, you completely remove the possibility of the auction house going bust and losing your car (see Coys recent history) it costs you nothing to list/sell the car and you retain physical ownership until the cash is in your bank account. No wonder it's popular.

So why have I got a problem with it? Well fundamentally the idea is genius and has been blessed with a global pandemic meaning online trading is the way to go. I get that, I got rid of my B&M business a decade ago and took everything on line. It's the future.

The problem I have is the recent growth in this "broker" type of trading in which a motor trader is clearly engaging in the motor trade and circumventing the legal responisbilites of the same. The CC added a category to openly enable it. That's it in a nutshell.

I don't particualrly mind Yellow Lotus's or should that be Lotii?

Someone, somewhere with a lot of money will get their fingers burnt in a big way on CC or another platform/broker, there will likely be some legalities involved that will shine a light on the whole industry at which point it will likely be addressed. Until that happens I guess it will all continue.



21ATS

237 posts

33 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
As an example of why CC has grown I was looking at a car that interested me recently at Silverstone.

This is the maths comparison between CC and a traditional auction model. (It was a conversation I was having on FChat about a 550 Maranello - I've just cut and pasted)

There's a huge spread created with premiums on both ends that means someone really needs to overbid the car for the seller to get any reasonable return.

Silverstone charges are as follows:-

£250+vat catalogue fee
5%+vat sellers fee
12.5%+vat buyers fee (rising to 13.5% if you bid on line).

Vs Collecting cars

6% buyers fee.

Lets say the seller is expecting £60,000 back for their car - considering retail asking prices are currently circa £90,000 on the most part. Likely having seen the numbers achieved on line recently.

On CC bidding needs to hit £63,600 for the seller to hit his number.

At Silverstone he'd need a bid of £73,485 (£74,251.80 on line) to realise the same £60,000

So a potential buyer needs to be bidding £10,000 more for the seller to hit his number assuming that number is around the £60K mark.

This is no longer about "what's the car worth". The seller has chosen an outlet that's simply going to cost £10,000+ more in fees.

Edited by 21ATS on Sunday 29th November 17:49

fridaypassion

5,346 posts

189 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
Well you seem to have your Y fronts in a twist over trade using CC but hardly any of the listings are trade and as I have repeatedly said CC is not a super attractive option for traders.

As for yellow Lotus you'll be aware of the one that was on the other platform that went for crazy money when the chassis was scrap? The second time of listing they actually listed it detailing the scrap chassis and someone still bought it. Crazy.

I really don't feel that there's a conspiracy going on here with CC in any way shape or form.

bennno

6,914 posts

230 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
21ATS said:
As an example of why CC has grown I was looking at a car that interested me recently at Silverstone.

This is the maths comparison between CC and a traditional auction model. (It was a conversation I was having on FChat about a 550 Maranello - I've just cut and pasted)

There's a huge spread created with premiums on both ends that means someone really needs to overbid the car for the seller to get any reasonable return.

Silverstone charges are as follows:-

£250+vat catalogue fee
5%+vat sellers fee
12.5%+vat buyers fee (rising to 13.5% if you bid on line).

Vs Collecting cars

6% buyers fee.

Lets say the seller is expecting £60,000 back for their car - considering retail asking prices are currently circa £90,000 on the most part. Likely having seen the numbers achieved on line recently.

On CC bidding needs to hit £63,600 for the seller to hit his number.

At Silverstone he'd need a bid of £73,485 (£74,251.80 on line) to realise the same £60,000

So a potential buyer needs to be bidding £10,000 more for the seller to hit his number assuming that number is around the £60K mark.

This is no longer about "what's the car worth". The seller has chosen an outlet that's simply going to cost £10,000+ more in fees.

Edited by 21ATS on Sunday 29th November 17:49
63,600 figure wrong, vendor only needs the Bids to hit 60k to hit his number as buyer pays the fee.

21ATS

237 posts

33 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
bennno said:
63,600 figure wrong, vendor only needs the Bids to hit 60k to hit his number as buyer pays the fee.
I was including the 6% in that I just didn't express it particularly well.

21ATS

237 posts

33 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
fridaypassion said:
Well you seem to have your Y fronts in a twist over trade using CC but hardly any of the listings are trade and as I have repeatedly said CC is not a super attractive option for traders.

As for yellow Lotus you'll be aware of the one that was on the other platform that went for crazy money when the chassis was scrap? The second time of listing they actually listed it detailing the scrap chassis and someone still bought it. Crazy.

I really don't feel that there's a conspiracy going on here with CC in any way shape or form.
Sigh....

There's no conspiracy.

The fact there are hardly any trade listings is actually part of the point I'm making.

Drclarke

1,072 posts

134 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
21ATS said:
Sigh....

There's no conspiracy.

The fact there are hardly any trade listings is actually part of the point I'm making.
Which kind of proves my theory, that the trade retail the best cars for themselves and we get the rest and pay top dealer rates for second rate cars.

Ferruccio

1,385 posts

80 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
Trevor555 said:
If you're a dealer, and you choose to sell to a member of the public, I didn't think there was any way you could get out of the legal implications of retailing to the public.
I suspect that that’s correct and that if the matter came to be litigated a judge would come to that conclusion pretty quickly.

Drclarke

1,072 posts

134 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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Ferruccio said:
I suspect that that’s correct and that if the matter came to be litigated a judge would come to that conclusion pretty quickly.
But also can’t a private seller describe a car anything other than 100% accurately? So if I were to buy something from such a website and it wasn’t as described
in detail who do you sue? Collecting Cars
/ Chris Harris for promoting it or the private seller?

spikeyhead

12,084 posts

158 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
Drclarke said:
Ferruccio said:
I suspect that that’s correct and that if the matter came to be litigated a judge would come to that conclusion pretty quickly.
But also can’t a private seller describe a car anything other than 100% accurately? So if I were to buy something from such a website and it wasn’t as described
in detail who do you sue? Collecting Cars
/ Chris Harris for promoting it or the private seller?
A private seller has to mis describe a car rather than just omit something material

Drclarke

1,072 posts

134 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
spikeyhead said:
A private seller has to mis describe a car rather than just omit something material
But if a private seller or collecting cars describes a car as being in excellent condition for example and you take it to a main dealer post sale for an appraisal and they come up with a list of things that deem it not so excellent, who would you sue for the repairs to make the substandard car ‘excellent’? I presume the auction house would leave the fall out to the private seller and keep their fee !


bish_345

88 posts

31 months

Monday 30th November 2020
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21ATS said:
If you buy at Silverstone Auctions you are buying the car from Silverstone Auctions with the legal ramifications that entails. I.e. not as described, stolen/recovered etc.
Potentially a misleading statement. When you buy at a Silverstone auction as opposed to through CC you are still technically buying from the seller. The auction house merely acts as agent for the seller and the purchase contract on the fall of the hammer is between the buyer and the seller (except in the rare cases where the auction house is acting as principal and owns the car itself, in which case that is clearly stated in the catalogue or before bidding starts).
This is all clearly stated right up front in Silverstone's terms and conditions (as is Silverstone's attempt to exclude any legal liability to the buyer for the description of the car and place liability for misdescriptions etc on the seller). See link. It's the same for every other auction house.
https://silverstoneauctions.com/pages/terms-and-co...



GT3Manthey

548 posts

10 months

Monday 30th November 2020
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Drclarke said:
But if a private seller or collecting cars describes a car as being in excellent condition for example and you take it to a main dealer post sale for an appraisal and they come up with a list of things that deem it not so excellent, who would you sue for the repairs to make the substandard car ‘excellent’? I presume the auction house would leave the fall out to the private seller and keep their fee !
If the cars substandard and a dispute ensues between buyer and seller then CC's will refund the buyers commission

andymc

6,604 posts

168 months

Monday 30th November 2020
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is it any difference to the trade entering cars in BCA/Manheim etc?

Jonny TVR

3,529 posts

242 months

Monday 30th November 2020
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Noticed one on there that says he is a private seller .. but he isn't.

Cheib

19,803 posts

136 months

Monday 30th November 2020
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I don’t think anyone a motor trader or a private can waive there legal obligations by stating they’re “managing a sale” as has been previously said it will take someone addressing this because they have to....at some stage no doubt that will happen. I am sure CC have taken legal advice but personally I think they’ve invented a legal status which doesn’t exist under UK law by saying a dealer is “Managing” a sale. It’s just ludicrous and wouldn’t even get to court.

In other news I just saw this 911 R appearing as sold...did I miss this auction ? I see it ended this morning !

https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2016-porsche-9...

V-spec

689 posts

212 months

Monday 30th November 2020
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Cheib said:
In other news I just saw this 911 R appearing as sold...did I miss this auction ? I see it ended this morning !

https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2016-porsche-9...
Maybe sold via the « buy now » option?

WojaWabbit

957 posts

179 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
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The Managed Sale thing piqued my interest when I first saw it being mentioned on CC but it only took a minute to note that its a private sale, managed by someone on behalf of the owner.

If a friend wanted to sell their car and asked me to do the donkey work for him, I wouldn't expect to be held responsible for any issues post transaction. Or does the issue only arise if the donkey is a dealer? I think the first listing I saw this on was a Ferrari managed by DK. They have a storage and service operation, as well as the sales side of their business. If the storage manager is coordinating a sale on behalf of a client why would they become responsible for any legalities of a sale, if the transaction and signing over of docs is ultimately between the buyer and the owner? Would it make a difference to those questioning the legalities of this type of sale if it was listed as "Private sale with a nominated point of contact"?
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