Collecting Cars auction results

Collecting Cars auction results

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Drclarke

1,185 posts

172 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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Ferruccio said:
I suspect that that’s correct and that if the matter came to be litigated a judge would come to that conclusion pretty quickly.
But also can’t a private seller describe a car anything other than 100% accurately? So if I were to buy something from such a website and it wasn’t as described
in detail who do you sue? Collecting Cars
/ Chris Harris for promoting it or the private seller?

spikeyhead

17,222 posts

196 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
quotequote all
Drclarke said:
Ferruccio said:
I suspect that that’s correct and that if the matter came to be litigated a judge would come to that conclusion pretty quickly.
But also can’t a private seller describe a car anything other than 100% accurately? So if I were to buy something from such a website and it wasn’t as described
in detail who do you sue? Collecting Cars
/ Chris Harris for promoting it or the private seller?
A private seller has to mis describe a car rather than just omit something material

Drclarke

1,185 posts

172 months

Sunday 29th November 2020
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spikeyhead said:
A private seller has to mis describe a car rather than just omit something material
But if a private seller or collecting cars describes a car as being in excellent condition for example and you take it to a main dealer post sale for an appraisal and they come up with a list of things that deem it not so excellent, who would you sue for the repairs to make the substandard car ‘excellent’? I presume the auction house would leave the fall out to the private seller and keep their fee !


bish_345

135 posts

69 months

Monday 30th November 2020
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21ATS said:
If you buy at Silverstone Auctions you are buying the car from Silverstone Auctions with the legal ramifications that entails. I.e. not as described, stolen/recovered etc.
Potentially a misleading statement. When you buy at a Silverstone auction as opposed to through CC you are still technically buying from the seller. The auction house merely acts as agent for the seller and the purchase contract on the fall of the hammer is between the buyer and the seller (except in the rare cases where the auction house is acting as principal and owns the car itself, in which case that is clearly stated in the catalogue or before bidding starts).
This is all clearly stated right up front in Silverstone's terms and conditions (as is Silverstone's attempt to exclude any legal liability to the buyer for the description of the car and place liability for misdescriptions etc on the seller). See link. It's the same for every other auction house.
https://silverstoneauctions.com/pages/terms-and-co...



GT3Manthey

4,426 posts

48 months

Monday 30th November 2020
quotequote all
Drclarke said:
But if a private seller or collecting cars describes a car as being in excellent condition for example and you take it to a main dealer post sale for an appraisal and they come up with a list of things that deem it not so excellent, who would you sue for the repairs to make the substandard car ‘excellent’? I presume the auction house would leave the fall out to the private seller and keep their fee !
If the cars substandard and a dispute ensues between buyer and seller then CC's will refund the buyers commission

andymc

7,334 posts

206 months

Monday 30th November 2020
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is it any difference to the trade entering cars in BCA/Manheim etc?

Jonny TVR

4,533 posts

280 months

Monday 30th November 2020
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Noticed one on there that says he is a private seller .. but he isn't.

Cheib

23,110 posts

174 months

Monday 30th November 2020
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I don’t think anyone a motor trader or a private can waive there legal obligations by stating they’re “managing a sale” as has been previously said it will take someone addressing this because they have to....at some stage no doubt that will happen. I am sure CC have taken legal advice but personally I think they’ve invented a legal status which doesn’t exist under UK law by saying a dealer is “Managing” a sale. It’s just ludicrous and wouldn’t even get to court.

In other news I just saw this 911 R appearing as sold...did I miss this auction ? I see it ended this morning !

https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2016-porsche-9...

V-spec

754 posts

250 months

Monday 30th November 2020
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Cheib said:
In other news I just saw this 911 R appearing as sold...did I miss this auction ? I see it ended this morning !

https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2016-porsche-9...
Maybe sold via the « buy now » option?

WojaWabbit

1,112 posts

217 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
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The Managed Sale thing piqued my interest when I first saw it being mentioned on CC but it only took a minute to note that its a private sale, managed by someone on behalf of the owner.

If a friend wanted to sell their car and asked me to do the donkey work for him, I wouldn't expect to be held responsible for any issues post transaction. Or does the issue only arise if the donkey is a dealer? I think the first listing I saw this on was a Ferrari managed by DK. They have a storage and service operation, as well as the sales side of their business. If the storage manager is coordinating a sale on behalf of a client why would they become responsible for any legalities of a sale, if the transaction and signing over of docs is ultimately between the buyer and the owner? Would it make a difference to those questioning the legalities of this type of sale if it was listed as "Private sale with a nominated point of contact"?

kevinon

799 posts

59 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
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WojaWabbit said:
Would it make a difference to those questioning the legalities of this type of sale if it was listed as "Private sale with a nominated point of contact"?
Good question. For me, it feels like ambiguity is part of the plan, rather than an unintended outcome.

If I were a seller I'd love my ego stroked by the buttery descriptions; who wouldn't love their asset to be described in honeyed phrases?

But as a buyer, it's just an eBay clone, but you pay 6% fees for having someone write the copy that I find oily, but others find motivational.

Cheib

23,110 posts

174 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
quotequote all
WojaWabbit said:
The Managed Sale thing piqued my interest when I first saw it being mentioned on CC but it only took a minute to note that its a private sale, managed by someone on behalf of the owner.

If a friend wanted to sell their car and asked me to do the donkey work for him, I wouldn't expect to be held responsible for any issues post transaction. Or does the issue only arise if the donkey is a dealer? I think the first listing I saw this on was a Ferrari managed by DK. They have a storage and service operation, as well as the sales side of their business. If the storage manager is coordinating a sale on behalf of a client why would they become responsible for any legalities of a sale, if the transaction and signing over of docs is ultimately between the buyer and the owner? Would it make a difference to those questioning the legalities of this type of sale if it was listed as "Private sale with a nominated point of contact"?
That’s all very well but several of these cars that appear on CC as Managed have previously been for sale through the dealer who is now Managing them.

Like this 2.7 RS which was sold on a “Managed” basis having previously been for sale through International Collectibles for several months. So in that case International Collectibles will be getting paid a few for Managing the sale in the same way it would if they had managed to sell that car on SoR.

That’s where the Managed status is a nonsense. Same dealer getting paid for doing the same thing...ie handling queries from potential buyers, arranging inspections etc

No company or individual has the ability to make a unilateral statement that removes their legal liability. It’s an utter nonsense, think if that was actually possible what chaos there would be.

21ATS

1,100 posts

71 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
quotequote all
WojaWabbit said:
The Managed Sale thing piqued my interest when I first saw it being mentioned on CC but it only took a minute to note that its a private sale, managed by someone on behalf of the owner.

If a friend wanted to sell their car and asked me to do the donkey work for him, I wouldn't expect to be held responsible for any issues post transaction. Or does the issue only arise if the donkey is a dealer? I think the first listing I saw this on was a Ferrari managed by DK. They have a storage and service operation, as well as the sales side of their business. If the storage manager is coordinating a sale on behalf of a client why would they become responsible for any legalities of a sale, if the transaction and signing over of docs is ultimately between the buyer and the owner? Would it make a difference to those questioning the legalities of this type of sale if it was listed as "Private sale with a nominated point of contact"?
If you managed a sale for a friend to simply take the hassle out of it you're absolutely spot on.

In the case of the Ferrari you mention, DK were managing the the sale, providing viewing and inspection facilities, "vouching" for the condition of the vehicle and therefore providing a degree of provenance by default and were being paid for doing so. As a Motor Trader being paid to undertake a sale they simply can't choose to opt out of the legal requirements of being a motor trader. If we chose your interpretation then surely any Sale or Return dealer are in fact not dealers - just brokers overseeing a private transaction between individuals.

The key point here is the managing agent is a motor trader being paid to sell a vehicle as part of their business. As a private individual I guess you're not a registered motor trader selling cars for a living? That's the crux of it.


Edited by 21ATS on Tuesday 1st December 17:50


What this did reveal to me after I started looking into this is how many "dealers" are not actually dealers or motor traders at all but are operating this managed sale business model. They seem to prefer the term "brokers".

So as a private individual I found I'd been looking at cars advertised by what I thought was a motor trader only to find (after the fact) they weren't a trader at all and it was effectively a private sale - but at a full retail price.

Edited by 21ATS on Tuesday 1st December 17:55

21ATS

1,100 posts

71 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
quotequote all
Cheib said:
That’s all very well but several of these cars that appear on CC as Managed have previously been for sale through the dealer who is now Managing them.

Like this 2.7 RS which was sold on a “Managed” basis having previously been for sale through International Collectibles for several months. So in that case International Collectibles will be getting paid a few for Managing the sale in the same way it would if they had managed to sell that car on SoR.

That’s where the Managed status is a nonsense. Same dealer getting paid for doing the same thing...ie handling queries from potential buyers, arranging inspections etc

No company or individual has the ability to make a unilateral statement that removes their legal liability. It’s an utter nonsense, think if that was actually possible what chaos there would be.
International Collectibles is owned by the owner of CC. It's not kept secret in any way and is openly publicised.

I have a feeling IC also operates a "Broker" type model - in so much as they are a manged seller. They own none of the stock, they are not responsible for any of the stock or aftersales as a traditional motor trader or dealer - they are simply providing an introduction service between two private individuals. A brokerage fee is payable for the "service" should a sale occur. I was provided this description of their MO by the guy that has arrange vehicle finance for me in the past and was asked to finance a vehicle being sold through IC.

Happy to be corrected though Ed, I know you read this thread.

rat rod

4,997 posts

64 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
quotequote all
21ATS said:
International Collectibles is owned by the owner of CC. It's not kept secret in any way and is openly publicised.

I have a feeling IC also operates a "Broker" type model - in so much as they are a manged seller. They own none of the stock, they are not responsible for any of the stock or aftersales as a traditional motor trader or dealer - they are simply providing an introduction service between two private individuals. A brokerage fee is payable for the "service" should a sale occur. I was provided this description of their MO by the guy that has arrange vehicle finance for me in the past and was asked to finance a vehicle being sold through IC.

Happy to be corrected though Ed, I know you read this thread.
Beleive Ed Lovett from the family business of the Dick Lovett Group owes IC and CC , said in a Chris Harris prodcast that he's not a suit
stay in the showroom type. AS you say it's well documented

Edited by rat rod on Tuesday 1st December 18:48

21ATS

1,100 posts

71 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
quotequote all
So it's been brought to my attention this evening that there's been a change in the description of Managed Sales on the CC website a few weeks ago.

I have to say I hadn't noticed this, so any managed listing now appears as this:-

Seller Type
MANAGED
This is a private sale, with viewings and enquiries being handled by a third party on behalf of the owner.


That removes a lot of ambiguity and has a occured as a result of the conversation on this thread.
So it's good that some of the conversation has been taken on board by CC.




bennno

11,502 posts

268 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
quotequote all
21ATS said:
So it's been brought to my attention this evening that there's been a change in the description of Managed Sales on the CC website a few weeks ago.

I have to say I hadn't noticed this, so any managed listing now appears as this:-

Seller Type
MANAGED
This is a private sale, with viewings and enquiries being handled by a third party on behalf of the owner.


That removes a lot of ambiguity and has a occured as a result of the conversation on this thread.
So it's good that some of the conversation has been taken on board by CC.
Acid test is who you are paying. Are you paying the person whose name is on the v5 or the third party.

21ATS

1,100 posts

71 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
quotequote all
bennno said:
Acid test is who you are paying. Are you paying the person whose name is on the v5 or the third party.
You pay the owner. Who may not necessarilly be the name on the V5. None of my cars are registered in my name, but I own them.

Paying the owner directly is part of the broker situation, they can't be seen to be handling the transaction otherwise they are deemed to be selling the vehicle themselves.

Any fee for the service they provided is then a stand alone transaction.

bennno

11,502 posts

268 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
quotequote all
21ATS said:
You pay the owner. Who may not necessarilly be the name on the V5. None of my cars are registered in my name, but I own them.

Paying the owner directly is part of the broker situation, they can't be seen to be handling the transaction otherwise they are deemed to be selling the vehicle themselves.

Any fee for the service they provided is then a stand alone transaction.
Presumably your cars are in a company name you are a director of, or In the name of family members?

In any other circumstance when selling you’d appear to be a dealer, or in breach of registration rules, or am I missing something?

21ATS

1,100 posts

71 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
quotequote all
bennno said:
Presumably your cars are in a company name you are a director of, or In the name of family members?

In any other circumstance when selling you’d appear to be a dealer, or in breach of registration rules, or am I missing something?
My cars are all registred in my partners name. She's disabled.

It caused a bit of a problem with Audi when we bought the car as she doesn't have a driving licence. Initially Audi refused to register the car in her name as she didn't hold a DL. After me providing them evidence this wasn't a legal requirement and signing a disclaimer they agreed.

Mercedes didn't care - they registered to her without question.

The main reason is for parking. A pleasant side effect is we don't have to pay road tax on any of them or congestion charge, or many toll charges, but ultimately a disabled registered vehicle can't be clamped or towed. We can also park in residents parking bays in most of London. (as long as we clearly display the blue badge).

When you have a wheelchair user that needs to be pretty much lifed in and out of a car it's a necessity. There's a woeful lack of disabled parking facilities where you actually need them.

Edited by 21ATS on Tuesday 1st December 21:27

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