Collecting Cars auction results

Collecting Cars auction results

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kevinon

215 posts

21 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
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WojaWabbit said:
Would it make a difference to those questioning the legalities of this type of sale if it was listed as "Private sale with a nominated point of contact"?
Good question. For me, it feels like ambiguity is part of the plan, rather than an unintended outcome.

If I were a seller I'd love my ego stroked by the buttery descriptions; who wouldn't love their asset to be described in honeyed phrases?

But as a buyer, it's just an eBay clone, but you pay 6% fees for having someone write the copy that I find oily, but others find motivational.

Cheib

19,826 posts

136 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
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WojaWabbit said:
The Managed Sale thing piqued my interest when I first saw it being mentioned on CC but it only took a minute to note that its a private sale, managed by someone on behalf of the owner.

If a friend wanted to sell their car and asked me to do the donkey work for him, I wouldn't expect to be held responsible for any issues post transaction. Or does the issue only arise if the donkey is a dealer? I think the first listing I saw this on was a Ferrari managed by DK. They have a storage and service operation, as well as the sales side of their business. If the storage manager is coordinating a sale on behalf of a client why would they become responsible for any legalities of a sale, if the transaction and signing over of docs is ultimately between the buyer and the owner? Would it make a difference to those questioning the legalities of this type of sale if it was listed as "Private sale with a nominated point of contact"?
That’s all very well but several of these cars that appear on CC as Managed have previously been for sale through the dealer who is now Managing them.

Like this 2.7 RS which was sold on a “Managed” basis having previously been for sale through International Collectibles for several months. So in that case International Collectibles will be getting paid a few for Managing the sale in the same way it would if they had managed to sell that car on SoR.

That’s where the Managed status is a nonsense. Same dealer getting paid for doing the same thing...ie handling queries from potential buyers, arranging inspections etc

No company or individual has the ability to make a unilateral statement that removes their legal liability. It’s an utter nonsense, think if that was actually possible what chaos there would be.

21ATS

240 posts

33 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
quotequote all
WojaWabbit said:
The Managed Sale thing piqued my interest when I first saw it being mentioned on CC but it only took a minute to note that its a private sale, managed by someone on behalf of the owner.

If a friend wanted to sell their car and asked me to do the donkey work for him, I wouldn't expect to be held responsible for any issues post transaction. Or does the issue only arise if the donkey is a dealer? I think the first listing I saw this on was a Ferrari managed by DK. They have a storage and service operation, as well as the sales side of their business. If the storage manager is coordinating a sale on behalf of a client why would they become responsible for any legalities of a sale, if the transaction and signing over of docs is ultimately between the buyer and the owner? Would it make a difference to those questioning the legalities of this type of sale if it was listed as "Private sale with a nominated point of contact"?
If you managed a sale for a friend to simply take the hassle out of it you're absolutely spot on.

In the case of the Ferrari you mention, DK were managing the the sale, providing viewing and inspection facilities, "vouching" for the condition of the vehicle and therefore providing a degree of provenance by default and were being paid for doing so. As a Motor Trader being paid to undertake a sale they simply can't choose to opt out of the legal requirements of being a motor trader. If we chose your interpretation then surely any Sale or Return dealer are in fact not dealers - just brokers overseeing a private transaction between individuals.

The key point here is the managing agent is a motor trader being paid to sell a vehicle as part of their business. As a private individual I guess you're not a registered motor trader selling cars for a living? That's the crux of it.


Edited by 21ATS on Tuesday 1st December 17:50


What this did reveal to me after I started looking into this is how many "dealers" are not actually dealers or motor traders at all but are operating this managed sale business model. They seem to prefer the term "brokers".

So as a private individual I found I'd been looking at cars advertised by what I thought was a motor trader only to find (after the fact) they weren't a trader at all and it was effectively a private sale - but at a full retail price.

Edited by 21ATS on Tuesday 1st December 17:55

21ATS

240 posts

33 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
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Cheib said:
That’s all very well but several of these cars that appear on CC as Managed have previously been for sale through the dealer who is now Managing them.

Like this 2.7 RS which was sold on a “Managed” basis having previously been for sale through International Collectibles for several months. So in that case International Collectibles will be getting paid a few for Managing the sale in the same way it would if they had managed to sell that car on SoR.

That’s where the Managed status is a nonsense. Same dealer getting paid for doing the same thing...ie handling queries from potential buyers, arranging inspections etc

No company or individual has the ability to make a unilateral statement that removes their legal liability. It’s an utter nonsense, think if that was actually possible what chaos there would be.
International Collectibles is owned by the owner of CC. It's not kept secret in any way and is openly publicised.

I have a feeling IC also operates a "Broker" type model - in so much as they are a manged seller. They own none of the stock, they are not responsible for any of the stock or aftersales as a traditional motor trader or dealer - they are simply providing an introduction service between two private individuals. A brokerage fee is payable for the "service" should a sale occur. I was provided this description of their MO by the guy that has arrange vehicle finance for me in the past and was asked to finance a vehicle being sold through IC.

Happy to be corrected though Ed, I know you read this thread.

rat rod

1,067 posts

26 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
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21ATS said:
International Collectibles is owned by the owner of CC. It's not kept secret in any way and is openly publicised.

I have a feeling IC also operates a "Broker" type model - in so much as they are a manged seller. They own none of the stock, they are not responsible for any of the stock or aftersales as a traditional motor trader or dealer - they are simply providing an introduction service between two private individuals. A brokerage fee is payable for the "service" should a sale occur. I was provided this description of their MO by the guy that has arrange vehicle finance for me in the past and was asked to finance a vehicle being sold through IC.

Happy to be corrected though Ed, I know you read this thread.
Beleive Ed Lovett from the family business of the Dick Lovett Group owes IC and CC , said in a Chris Harris prodcast that he's not a suit
stay in the showroom type. AS you say it's well documented

Edited by rat rod on Tuesday 1st December 18:48

21ATS

240 posts

33 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
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So it's been brought to my attention this evening that there's been a change in the description of Managed Sales on the CC website a few weeks ago.

I have to say I hadn't noticed this, so any managed listing now appears as this:-

Seller Type
MANAGED
This is a private sale, with viewings and enquiries being handled by a third party on behalf of the owner.


That removes a lot of ambiguity and has a occured as a result of the conversation on this thread.
So it's good that some of the conversation has been taken on board by CC.




bennno

6,932 posts

230 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
quotequote all
21ATS said:
So it's been brought to my attention this evening that there's been a change in the description of Managed Sales on the CC website a few weeks ago.

I have to say I hadn't noticed this, so any managed listing now appears as this:-

Seller Type
MANAGED
This is a private sale, with viewings and enquiries being handled by a third party on behalf of the owner.


That removes a lot of ambiguity and has a occured as a result of the conversation on this thread.
So it's good that some of the conversation has been taken on board by CC.
Acid test is who you are paying. Are you paying the person whose name is on the v5 or the third party.

21ATS

240 posts

33 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
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bennno said:
Acid test is who you are paying. Are you paying the person whose name is on the v5 or the third party.
You pay the owner. Who may not necessarilly be the name on the V5. None of my cars are registered in my name, but I own them.

Paying the owner directly is part of the broker situation, they can't be seen to be handling the transaction otherwise they are deemed to be selling the vehicle themselves.

Any fee for the service they provided is then a stand alone transaction.

bennno

6,932 posts

230 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
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21ATS said:
You pay the owner. Who may not necessarilly be the name on the V5. None of my cars are registered in my name, but I own them.

Paying the owner directly is part of the broker situation, they can't be seen to be handling the transaction otherwise they are deemed to be selling the vehicle themselves.

Any fee for the service they provided is then a stand alone transaction.
Presumably your cars are in a company name you are a director of, or In the name of family members?

In any other circumstance when selling you’d appear to be a dealer, or in breach of registration rules, or am I missing something?

21ATS

240 posts

33 months

Tuesday 1st December 2020
quotequote all
bennno said:
Presumably your cars are in a company name you are a director of, or In the name of family members?

In any other circumstance when selling you’d appear to be a dealer, or in breach of registration rules, or am I missing something?
My cars are all registred in my partners name. She's disabled.

It caused a bit of a problem with Audi when we bought the car as she doesn't have a driving licence. Initially Audi refused to register the car in her name as she didn't hold a DL. After me providing them evidence this wasn't a legal requirement and signing a disclaimer they agreed.

Mercedes didn't care - they registered to her without question.

The main reason is for parking. A pleasant side effect is we don't have to pay road tax on any of them or congestion charge, or many toll charges, but ultimately a disabled registered vehicle can't be clamped or towed. We can also park in residents parking bays in most of London. (as long as we clearly display the blue badge).

When you have a wheelchair user that needs to be pretty much lifed in and out of a car it's a necessity. There's a woeful lack of disabled parking facilities where you actually need them.

Edited by 21ATS on Tuesday 1st December 21:27

RATATTAK

6,696 posts

150 months

Wednesday 2nd December 2020
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Zippy's selling a car tonight ... Morgan
ETA Looks like it didn't make reserve

Edited by RATATTAK on Wednesday 2nd December 19:45

bennno

6,932 posts

230 months

Wednesday 2nd December 2020
quotequote all
RATATTAK said:
Zippy's selling a car tonight ... Morgan
ETA Looks like it didn't make reserve

Edited by RATATTAK on Wednesday 2nd December 19:45
It didn’t, I’d bid what I thought was a generous amount for it, but believe he was after 60+ which was too rich for me via an auction site.

Stryke

603 posts

123 months

Wednesday 2nd December 2020
quotequote all
RATATTAK said:
Zippy's selling a car tonight ... Morgan
ETA Looks like it didn't make reserve

Edited by RATATTAK on Wednesday 2nd December 19:45
If you Google zippy and collectingcars the guy has a bid on every car currently listed there...

HIS LM

1,102 posts

220 months

Wednesday 2nd December 2020
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Zippy is a serial trader, was the link established to Targa Fiori ?

bennno

6,932 posts

230 months

Thursday 3rd December 2020
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HIS LM said:
Zippy is a serial trader, was the link established to Targa Fiori ?
I believe that to be correct. I’m not sure why if you ran a business like that you’d use collecting cars as a platform to sell, I guess good way to buy stock, although still slightly confused by that as a lot of their stock is SOR.

dinkel

25,664 posts

219 months

Thursday 3rd December 2020
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Are you guys saying there's no limit to how many cars one can buy via CC?

It should be a good thing to avoid serial buyers imo...

Ferruccio

1,393 posts

80 months

Thursday 3rd December 2020
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dinkel said:
Are you guys saying there's no limit to how many cars one can buy via CC?

It should be a good thing to avoid serial buyers imo...
Why on earth would anyone care how many cars a particular buyer buys??

If the reserve is reached, everyone’s got what they were looking for.

bennno

6,932 posts

230 months

Thursday 3rd December 2020
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Ferruccio said:
dinkel said:
Are you guys saying there's no limit to how many cars one can buy via CC?

It should be a good thing to avoid serial buyers imo...
Why on earth would anyone care how many cars a particular buyer buys??

If the reserve is reached, everyone’s got what they were looking for.
I don't see why you shouldn't bid on as many as you'd like and can afford. So long as its demonstrable that the transactions are completing afterwards.

I guess it becomes a bit less clear if you are bidding / buying in large volumes, run a car dealership, then start selling cars through cc where half way through an auction (with open bids on a car) the sale type gets modified (without bidder notification) from trade to private.

ferrisbueller

25,691 posts

188 months

Thursday 3rd December 2020
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Bit weird if trade are buying from trade via the platform. Aren't there lines of communication to move cars offline without the fees? Maybe they can't agree on a value and let the auctions decide.

As posted previously, there are several traders buying stock from CC.

SFTWend

266 posts

36 months

Thursday 3rd December 2020
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If I was a dealer trading in sports and prestige cars I'd probably set up auto bids on many lots with limits that provided a profit margin. This in the knowledge most lots sell for strong money so no risk of being successful on more cars than I wanted in stock.
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