Audi S6 engine failure

Audi S6 engine failure

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wave_watcher

Original Poster:

32 posts

2 months

Sunday 25th October
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AUDI S6 Saga (Started on 23rd SEPTEMBER):
Hi - I'm new to this forum, but really hope someone can help me. I was driving our S6 Avant (14 plate) from Dorset to Northumberland on September 23rd. I was 20 miles from home in Northumberland (ie long journey almost over) when I got a warning message 'Add 1.25L oil. You may continue driving'. I thought I'd call in at the next garage which was only 3 miles away. However, within another minute I got a second message saying the Engine Start/Stop was going to stop working. Then within 30 seconds the engine died (rev counter fell to zero) and I had to coast to safety. Luckily I was able to get off the carriageway. The engine would turn over very happily, but it didn't fire up. There had been no warnings on the dash prior to those mentioned above. It's easy to be wise after the event, but on the journey up the M6 I had noticed the power under the accelerator wasn't as perky as normal. I put this down to a full load of passengers and bikes on the roof, but now I realise it must have been a sign of trouble ahead. The car was recovered at the scene and taken to the Audi dealership on Tyneside.
Previous service history: we bought the car in May 2017 aged 2.5 years old. It had13k miles on the clock. It has been serviced regularly, but not always by the Audi dealership. The last service was done in December 2019 by the Tyneside dealership who now have the car for repair. At that service the mileage was 48.5k. The mileage now is 55k. We have had A6 Avants continuously for over 25 years and always been happy with the performance of each car.

TREATMENT:
PART 1.
Diagnostics started a week after recovery (workshop super busy). They thought the FUEL INJECTORS had failed so recommended replacing these and suggested replacing the SPARK PLUGS at the same time. The garage warned me this involved removing the engine and the gear box so we were facing a lengthy and costly repair. They could give no guarantee this would resolve the issue as the diagnosis had been made by elimination rather than as a positive result of diagnostic tests. As a side annoyance, I have seen on the service sheet that the same garage replaced the spark plugs as part of the service last December at a cost of £159.04 ex vat and labour. It seems wrong that the same garage would insist on replacing them so soon?

PART 2: MONDAY 19th October
The garage rang me to explain this repair had been completed at a cost of £4,340, BUT there were still issues with the car (which has remained at the garage since 23rd September). When the engine had been rebuilt and the technician tested it, the engine started, but the technician detected an unhealthy sound and it has been recommended that the TURBO and THROTTLE VALVE are replaced. This means taking the engine out again. Estimated cost for parts is £4,207.36 plus 11 hours labour. I was speechless. Although the car is 6 years old, is hasn't got a high mileage. The service manager who rang me explained the oil level had been very, very, very low (not sure what that means, the car either needs oil or it doesn't)? I asked if this meant the warning light was faulty as it hadn't come on, but he was non-committal. I have contacted Audi UK who have failed to get back to me within the 48 hour window they promised. However, the dealer has offered to pay 70% of the parts cost for part 2 and to waive the labour charge.

COSTS SO FAR:
This might sound generous, but I am still facing a bill of £5602.20.
(The original £4,340 plus £1,262.20 for the parts for the 2nd repair).

In summary, I have two questions I'm really hoping to have answered by anyone who has managed to stay with me on my tale of woe.
1) Does this sound a familiar issue with an S6 of this age and mileage?
2) Can I expect Audi to offer any more support than they have already? A transferrable warranty for the parts fitted would help (especially as I intend to sell the car and never buy another Audi again unless Audi UK see me right).

RAMBLING REMARKS:
I apologise for the non technical language, but I'm just an average driver (female) and have no idea about car mechanics.
I haven't been asked to make any payment yet.
The repair costs aren't an covered by insurance.
I have no confidence that the current repair being completed will solve the issue.
Today is October 25th, so I've been car-less for just over a calendar month.





catman

2,195 posts

135 months

Sunday 25th October
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Not much help, but I would be amazed if the engine had to come out to change the injectors. I would also expect Audi diagnostics to be able to tell which injector had failed, and not just replace all 8. (At your expense, of course)

Now they want to replace the turbo, but can't promise that it will cure the problem? I hope that someone on here more qualified than me sees this and offers you some qualified advice about your car.

I wouldn't be paying the Dealer to replace your engine a bit at a time without (by the sound of it) having a clue what they're doing.

stevieturbo

15,094 posts

207 months

Sunday 25th October
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Jesus wept yet again.....( and this is not a reflection on yourself )

They "thought the fuel injectors had failed" ?

How fking retarded are they ? Unfortunately at that point, it would have been prudent to get the car very very very very far away from the idiots.

Replacing the spark plugs, requires removing the engine and gearbox ? WTF ?

No diagnosis has been done, you are correct with that part. They are literally idiots robbing you.
Not sure what sort of legal options there are here, but this is the sort of st that should see them taken to court.
You don't fix cars by randomly throwing parts at them, and is it any wonder I call most main dealers utterly incompetent.

If they can't even perform a simple diagnosis....how in the hell or who in the hell let them even try and rebuild an engine...and why ??

Really...it's hard to even know where to start, as it all sounds utterly mental. But some sort of independent assessor with a view to taking it to court might be a good course of action, because it sounds like complete spastics working at the car so far.

Although none of the above is getting you on the road any faster....the only way that seems likely to happen is if you find someone competent to fix it, and fix everything they have damaged on the car in their vein attempts to fix it.

catman

2,195 posts

135 months

Sunday 25th October
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I mentioned your post in the Audi section too. You may get some help from someone in the know.

320d is all you need

680 posts

3 months

Sunday 25th October
quotequote all
I think you need to take the car to a specialist, not to a main dealer.

You've been robbed absolutely, based on your description alone.

catman

2,195 posts

135 months

Sunday 25th October
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Stevie, as she has a previous bill for replacing the spark plugs of around £150, then they have told her that the engine out was for the injectors.

I hate people like this. As if she doesn't have enough trouble already. I tried looking online for the true cost of replacement, but drew a blank.

wave_watcher

Original Poster:

32 posts

2 months

Sunday 25th October
quotequote all
Thank you everyone for making me feel less stupid. Slight correction to the reading of my post - the dealer said replacing the injectors required the engine to be removed, and that spark plug replacement at the same time would be prudent. They didn't suggest spark plug replacement involved engine removal. I'm still hopeful of finding leverage to get a bit more goodwill from Audi. I didn't take the car away from the dealer as I thought Audi UK would be even less likely to show goodwill. Perhaps that was an error. I wonder if the dealers only work on newer cars and indys might be better at working on 'older' cars. Final thought.....it's worrying that an expensive car blows up as a teenager having only travelled 55k.

catman

2,195 posts

135 months

Sunday 25th October
quotequote all
You could try phoning another Dealer/independant specialist to inquire about the cost of replacing the injectors in order to find out the true cost.

Whatever it is, there's little doubt in my mind that the Dealer is both incompetent and dishonest. You didn't mention any nasty noises, so at least it seems that there isn't any major damage to the engine.

I hope that you have a good outcome, but I have a feeling that it will get worse before it gets better, as when the Dealer realises that he's been found out, he's going to make getting your car back difficult.

stevieturbo

15,094 posts

207 months

Sunday 25th October
quotequote all
wave_watcher said:
Thank you everyone for making me feel less stupid. Slight correction to the reading of my post - the dealer said replacing the injectors required the engine to be removed, and that spark plug replacement at the same time would be prudent. They didn't suggest spark plug replacement involved engine removal. I'm still hopeful of finding leverage to get a bit more goodwill from Audi. I didn't take the car away from the dealer as I thought Audi UK would be even less likely to show goodwill. Perhaps that was an error. I wonder if the dealers only work on newer cars and indys might be better at working on 'older' cars. Final thought.....it's worrying that an expensive car blows up as a teenager having only travelled 55k.
It sounds far less likely it "has blown up", and more likely the incompetent idiots at the dealer have just been clueless as to diagnosing what is wrong, and then threw the parts cannon at it hoping something they did might fix it. All at your expense.

This stuff angers the st out of me, such incompetence should never be tolerated, especially at the prices they charge !

ninepoint2

2,632 posts

120 months

Monday 26th October
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If that is true then it is really shocking, though not unsurprising, removing engine and gearbox to replace spark plugs and injectors is just fairy story stuff. I have the V10 C6 RS6 and had spark plugs replaced for a few pounds from my local indie, he also did the infamous oil pump seal for a few hundred which Audi insist is an engine out job at around £4k. Audi main dealers should wherever possible be avoided, neither of mine have been anywhere near one since I bought them

CDP

6,339 posts

214 months

Monday 26th October
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Silly question but was "Add 1.25l of oil" the first message? It seems rather a large amount for a top-up. In fact most top up cans from garages are only a litre.

Chris32345

1,110 posts

22 months

Monday 26th October
quotequote all
CDP said:
Silly question but was "Add 1.25l of oil" the first message? It seems rather a large amount for a top-up. In fact most top up cans from garages are only a litre.
Yes I'd be a bit worried at that if that the first time it tell you it's low when it needs that much oil adding

PositronicRay

20,102 posts

143 months

Monday 26th October
quotequote all
Chris32345 said:
CDP said:
Silly question but was "Add 1.25l of oil" the first message? It seems rather a large amount for a top-up. In fact most top up cans from garages are only a litre.
Yes I'd be a bit worried at that if that the first time it tell you it's low when it needs that much oil adding
It does have an 8.3l capacity.

Elliot2000

737 posts

136 months

Monday 26th October
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stevieturbo said:
It sounds far less likely it "has blown up", and more likely the incompetent idiots at the dealer have just been clueless as to diagnosing what is wrong, and then threw the parts cannon at it hoping something they did might fix it. All at your expense.

This stuff angers the st out of me, such incompetence should never be tolerated, especially at the prices they charge !
I know this stuff angers you as you hate main dealers regardless and think they are all clueless and out to rip people off.

All I would say is the car went in non running- I have no knowledge of Audi systems - they eliminated some items but couldn’t eliminate injectors - sometimes it’s like this with modern cars. But after changing the injectors it now runs so doesn’t seem too bad of a job. They are now have identified an issue with it running which they couldn’t have identified before as the engine did not run.

The size of the bill is astronomical- but if Audi have designed an engine where the only way to remove injectors is to take the engine out - that’s not the garages fault. Plus modern direct injection fuel injectors at £250-300 each on a v8 I think it’s already 2000-2400 of the total bill anyway.

The new issue they have identified may or may not have been there for a long time before this engine had cut out - just not heard by the owner or realised it was something to be concerned about.

What you shouldn’t do is instantly go on the attack without at least trying to get all the information - like the comment about having a go at the garage for removing the engine to do the spark plugs - which was pretty clear that wasn’t the case

Changing one set of components and managing to get the engine running is not what I call ‘loading up the parts cannon’

OP - not that it’s going to save you much - but if the spark plugs were deemed faulty then they will be guaranteed by the one or two years part warranty as they were only fitted recently


Edited by Elliot2000 on Monday 26th October 09:20

CDP

6,339 posts

214 months

Monday 26th October
quotequote all
PositronicRay said:
Chris32345 said:
CDP said:
Silly question but was "Add 1.25l of oil" the first message? It seems rather a large amount for a top-up. In fact most top up cans from garages are only a litre.
Yes I'd be a bit worried at that if that the first time it tell you it's low when it needs that much oil adding
It does have an 8.3l capacity.
Quite bit more than most. Even so if engineering the car I'd have set the threshold at 1litre to match the garage cans.

wave_watcher

Original Poster:

32 posts

2 months

Monday 26th October
quotequote all
Thanks again everyone for commenting. I particularly like the conciliatory (two sides to every argument) style of Elliot's post. I've just alerted our local well respected Audi independent garage to my problem and they're having a read through now.

I'm still interested if any other S6 owners have had engine 'failure' at 50-60k mileage....

catman

2,195 posts

135 months

Monday 26th October
quotequote all
Hi, although you are calling it engine failure, this suggests something catastrophic. Modern cars are so complex that it could be something relatively minor.

As you are experiencing so many problems with the Dealer, it could be making it appear far worse than it really is. I hope that you get a positive outcome soon.

stevieturbo

15,094 posts

207 months

Monday 26th October
quotequote all
Elliot2000 said:
I know this stuff angers you as you hate main dealers regardless and think they are all clueless and out to rip people off.

All I would say is the car went in non running- I have no knowledge of Audi systems - they eliminated some items but couldn’t eliminate injectors - sometimes it’s like this with modern cars. But after changing the injectors it now runs so doesn’t seem too bad of a job. They are now have identified an issue with it running which they couldn’t have identified before as the engine did not run.

The size of the bill is astronomical- but if Audi have designed an engine where the only way to remove injectors is to take the engine out - that’s not the garages fault. Plus modern direct injection fuel injectors at £250-300 each on a v8 I think it’s already 2000-2400 of the total bill anyway.

The new issue they have identified may or may not have been there for a long time before this engine had cut out - just not heard by the owner or realised it was something to be concerned about.

What you shouldn’t do is instantly go on the attack without at least trying to get all the information - like the comment about having a go at the garage for removing the engine to do the spark plugs - which was pretty clear that wasn’t the case

Changing one set of components and managing to get the engine running is not what I call ‘loading up the parts cannon’

OP - not that it’s going to save you much - but if the spark plugs were deemed faulty then they will be guaranteed by the one or two years part warranty as they were only fitted recently


Edited by Elliot2000 on Monday 26th October 09:20
As you well know, all the injectors in an engine do not suddenly just stop working. It is just not reality. And if there was a concern about some injectors not working correctly, you would remove them and have them tested. You wouldn't just go out and buy new ones at a few thousand pounds. That's just insanity....or the warranty approach when the manufacturer is footing the bill so it doesn't matter.
So yes, it absolutely is the parts cannon, because there was no logic in replacing them, and the old units were not tested.

There was also mention about the engine being rebuilt ? Unless that doesn't mean what they think it means.

Elliot2000

737 posts

136 months

Monday 26th October
quotequote all
stevieturbo said:
As you well know, all the injectors in an engine do not suddenly just stop working. It is just not reality. And if there was a concern about some injectors not working correctly, you would remove them and have them tested. You wouldn't just go out and buy new ones at a few thousand pounds. That's just insanity....or the warranty approach when the manufacturer is footing the bill so it doesn't matter.
So yes, it absolutely is the parts cannon, because there was no logic in replacing them, and the old units were not tested.

There was also mention about the engine being rebuilt ? Unless that doesn't mean what they think it means.
The engine was obviously not rebuilt in the way you are implying and it’s clear from the way it’s been described.

Injectors can and do just fail - maybe not entire sets in one go together - and this point I agree to that extent with you, but it’s also unlikely one failed injector will cause an engine to stop running altogether too - and the op did describe the car feeling down on power prior to the breakdown. Again we haven’t got all the info - it’s plausible more than one had failed and stuck open and allowed too much fuel pressure to be lost. It’s also plausible that Audi request that injectors have to be changed as a set and the main dealer is doing as it’s made to do. But after replacing one set of components,plus the spark plugs, the engine was then running - how is that a parts cannon repair?

Non direct injectors can be refurbished, direct injection solenoid type injectors can be refurbed, but a very modern direct injection petrol engine probably doesn’t use these - it probably uses piezo type which aren’t easily repaired and very few places do them .

Not every main dealer is out to rip you off

stevemcs

4,956 posts

53 months

Monday 26th October
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If an injector fails i would have expected the car to run - even badly, if 2 injectors failed I would still expect it to run although badly. If an owner had a car recovered to me and the car had asked for oil then stopped while driving the first thing I would do is recover fault codes and drain the oil to see exactly how much comes out and if there are metal bits in the oil.

When starting did it sounds normal or did it sound different ?