Kia engine woes… any solutions?
Discussion
SteBrown91 said:
Zedboy said:
He's a hard working public servant who knows he's been daft, married to a nurse with 2 youngsters and precious few funds to repair/replace.
Not sure what this has to do with anything? Working in the public sector doesn’t mean you deserve a break for not doing something glaringly obvious. The cars even tell you to service them for f
ks sake!It’s like those morons who can’t be bothered to insure their house for £15 quid a month but wheel out the go fund me and Facebook campaign when it burns down.
Not everyone is savvy at how important servicing is, this was sure one way to learn. Hopefully he can get the repairs done for a reasonable price.
Edited by LivLL on Wednesday 21st August 21:17
dhibbert said:
I very much doubt they would repair the existing donkey either after catastrophic failure.
Firstly, it would help to assess the situation, and to put this in writing for the customer to consider. This is a first step I've already recommended.This is a paid service. I cover my costs. But I don't need to make big money on it. I can do this at an inviting price, and in a moment I'll explain why.
If the status of the vehicle or the propensities of a used engine create conditions for which I cannot take responsibility... I won't.
But I can still provide the OP's family with a solution today.
A dealer will have trusted relationships elsewhere in the value chain. In some instances it would not be unreasonable that the customer takes his car elsewhere to have work done, work to include a replacement engine.
Because we don't know the details, and because the customer has his or her own personal considerations, my proposal does not rely on replacement alone.
dhibbert said:
As for the ‘payment plan’, we’ve been tricked/forced/blackmailed into doing it before and you never get your money back I’m afraid. It would be purely based on trust and completely unregulated.
I assume that financing and / or refinancing would come from a third party provider and not from my OEM financing arm. Availability of course varies by country (I'm in the US). I do apologise if I've made an assumption that's not quite right for the UK.To be clear: the dealer is not a bank. All financing must be qualified and enforceable.
To make things easier for the customer, I can tie together a lot of loose strings. The customer of course is always welcome to compare and to shop elsewhere.
dhibbert said:
Often whilst trying to do the right/decent thing by someone.
That's precisely what I'd like the OP's family to conclude. My team and I have done the homework to provide them with a solution today. And, in the process, we've compromised nothing about who we are.To review:
- assessment
- mild damage: we can fix
- catastrophic: worse case we offer a generous PX and off you go... or... if the maths allow for an engine replacement, we make a referral to a competent third party
Costs for each of the above are covered, even if I deliver at a discount. Because, as I noted earlier, I don't want to make big money on this deal. And, frankly, there's no big money to be had therein.
But there is big money afoot.
I should think that a dealer would relish the opportunity to put a stop to worry.
Let's offer the customer a few reasonable solutions that he / she can take action on today.
And when they do, I'll earn money off their decision for months to come.
No matter what the customer decides, my team can turn this situation into content and experiences that drive footfall on the forecourt:
- a dozen or more videos on social media
- newsletter stories and lessons learnt
- multiple posts on our company blog
- video and posters in our dealership
- training materials for our staff
- conversation starters with our trusted third-party vendors
- an article or soundbyte, in local media if we're lucky
None of the preceding involves the customer or the customer's personal details, by the way.
I don't want to be known as yet another vanilla-wrapped dealer who sells cars. And who is easily forgotten. I want to be known, in part, as a man with a team that offers solutions for real life.
I can't help everybody who tumbles into an unfortunate situation.
If, however, I can do a deal like this maybe two or three times a year, the community will do the rest. I'd rather customers do the talking for me.
SteBrown91 said:
Zedboy said:
He's a hard working public servant who knows he's been daft, married to a nurse with 2 youngsters and precious few funds to repair/replace.
Not sure what this has to do with anything? Working in the public sector doesn’t mean you deserve a break for not doing something glaringly obvious. The cars even tell you to service them for fks sake!It’s like those morons who can’t be bothered to insure their house for £15 quid a month but wheel out the go fund me and Facebook campaign when it burns down.
unsprung, in the nicest possible way you're living in a dream world. 
No dealer is going to do anything other than replace a seized engine outright with a factory exchange or outright new, for the simple reason that they have to warranty the work.
The kind of customer that doesn't realise they have to change the oil sometimes is not the kind of customer that understands the intricacies of "maybe we can replace some bits and it'll be ok". They;re more "you fixed it, it's broken again, I want it fixed again for free."
No value in getting a dealer to do it anyway, the warranty is gone due to the lack of servicing.
Best plan really is find a more backstreety garage that will agree to swap the engine with a used one, some breakers are halfway decent on providing some warrarnty, 2-3 months sort of thing.
No dealer is going to do anything other than replace a seized engine outright with a factory exchange or outright new, for the simple reason that they have to warranty the work.
The kind of customer that doesn't realise they have to change the oil sometimes is not the kind of customer that understands the intricacies of "maybe we can replace some bits and it'll be ok". They;re more "you fixed it, it's broken again, I want it fixed again for free."
No value in getting a dealer to do it anyway, the warranty is gone due to the lack of servicing.
Best plan really is find a more backstreety garage that will agree to swap the engine with a used one, some breakers are halfway decent on providing some warrarnty, 2-3 months sort of thing.
Easiest option might be a re-conditioned engine fitted by a decent independent, I think this is the only way you will get a bit of certainty that it will be okay going forward.
For someone not familiar with the spanners I would do as above but if time isn't an issue and spannering is your thing then some DIY would save money but you takes your chance with buying a 2nd hand engine.
For someone not familiar with the spanners I would do as above but if time isn't an issue and spannering is your thing then some DIY would save money but you takes your chance with buying a 2nd hand engine.
Zedboy said:
Thanks for all the comments all . I’m talking to the dealer tomorrow, but am expecting to have to source a supply/fit second hand engine from a local garage and move it on.
Hopefully I can get him back into a reasonable shed and start saving again.
Knowing Kia I doubt it, we had a customer who’s Kia started using lots of oil, they wanted copies of the history, then they decided because we had serviced and not the Kia dealer it wouldn’t be covered unless using genuine parts, then they came up with despite it being serviced the oil filter was to blame and that wasn’t a genuine part, so we supplied the customer with a copy of the invoice showing we had bought it from that very dealer, they then said it still wasn’t covered and still wouldn’t do anything about it.Hopefully I can get him back into a reasonable shed and start saving again.
Replacing engines never work out cost effective
dhibbert said:
unsprung said:
Reckon you're on to something.
If I'd run that dealership, I'd offer the customer something like:
1. For a reduced flat fee, the dealership will audit the vehicle, the engine in particular, to arrive at a clear assessment. The outcome is provided in writing and the customer may do whatever he likes, no obligation.
2. If the damage is blessedly light, the dealership can perform needed repairs and, cognisant of the family budget, offer to roll the cost of repair into the remaining monthly payments.
3. If the damage is catastrophic, make two subsequent offers:
. a) We can swap a used engine or
. b) We can relieve you of your car at a somewhat generous part ex value. In return you receive a steep discount on a fresh, used vehicle. The difference as well as your remaining payments on the original car are joined into a simple long-term payment plan.
Part of me is convinced you were joking.If I'd run that dealership, I'd offer the customer something like:
1. For a reduced flat fee, the dealership will audit the vehicle, the engine in particular, to arrive at a clear assessment. The outcome is provided in writing and the customer may do whatever he likes, no obligation.
2. If the damage is blessedly light, the dealership can perform needed repairs and, cognisant of the family budget, offer to roll the cost of repair into the remaining monthly payments.
3. If the damage is catastrophic, make two subsequent offers:
. a) We can swap a used engine or
. b) We can relieve you of your car at a somewhat generous part ex value. In return you receive a steep discount on a fresh, used vehicle. The difference as well as your remaining payments on the original car are joined into a simple long-term payment plan.
We own a family firm, we have sold and repaired vehicles for a very long time. We had 3 franchises at one point.
We are a bit soft really and try and help customers out as much as possible.
All I can say is that every option you have come up with would be a massive no for me i’m afraid. It’s not just the financial implication (ie losing money). There is a high degree of certitude that it wouldn’t work out well for the customer. No main agent in their right mind will fit a used engine. I very much doubt they would repair the existing donkey either after catastrophic failure.
Another shop called me today asking for advice after basically doing exactly what you suggested. He took pity on a rather financially embarrassed customer a few weeks ago. Customer supplied a second hand engine, new turbo, new timing belt kit etc. The engine was fitted complete with the new parts. He ran it for a week himself to make sure it was ok. A thousand miles later the engine has seized on the motorway. Despite all the risks being explained before hand (used and ‘unknown’ engine being fitted etc) the customer is now wanting to ‘go legal’ over it. The poor mechanic looked 10 years older compared to last week.
As for the ‘payment plan’, we’ve been tricked/forced/blackmailed into doing it before and you never get your money back I’m afraid. It would be purely based on trust and completely unregulated. The last one I recall being involved in was due to the customer having no money to pay for the new short engine we installed in his WRX. When I chased him for the first months money he messaged me back to say he’d gone on holiday.
Sure, the car game has a (often deserved) poor reputation, but there have been so many times we have ended up being essentially done over ourselves. Often whilst trying to do the right/decent thing by someone.
You don’t mind helping folk where you can, but this is clearly down to owner abuse.
What happened to taking responsibility for one’s own actions (or lack of them)?
100% in agreement with all of this. Everyone is reasonable and understands the risks right up until it goes wrong and they're after someone to blame or some way to claw some money back. Fitting a customer supplied engine is something you need to approach with great caution and solid paperwork.Unsprung - by all means set up a business with this model and report back to us in 2 years on how it's going. Or ask the insolvency practitioner to give us a heads up that his report is out
Used engines were also fairly expensive on Kias and Hyundais last time I looked because they crap themselves a lot, the OPs idiot son in law is on a really sticky wicket being £9k down on a car he's wrecked, whichever way he goes this is going to be a very expensive lesson for him but if you can find one of the companies that supply AND fit used engines in one to do it you'll have an easier time if the used engine is a duffer.
I'm sure less honest men than you'd find on PH would suggest setting it on fire
Edited by GeniusOfLove on Thursday 22 August 00:27
I had an engine go on a car. My indy recommended a straight swap with a second hand engine. He told me they aren't set up to strip engines and assess what went wrong. A reconditioned engine was about £500. Labour for fitting, with new belts etc would be about £2.5k all in.
So I called an engine rebuild specialist who would do something akin to what unsprung was suggesting, but all the risk lay with me. They said at a minimum, it would cost £1500 if it turned out to be something very obvious and simple, such as a failed piston ring. They said if there was further damage, and they had to rebuild the whole shebang, replace the block etc. it could cost upto £4500.
I couldn't be bothered to sink that sort of money in a 13 year old car so decided to sell to a webuyanycar type place for £900, declaring the engine kaput (Webuyanycar wouldn't touch it without a functioning engine, but one company was fine with it). I saw it advertised on a forecourt a couple of months later for £5k, so it was definitely worth fixing for someone out there.
So I called an engine rebuild specialist who would do something akin to what unsprung was suggesting, but all the risk lay with me. They said at a minimum, it would cost £1500 if it turned out to be something very obvious and simple, such as a failed piston ring. They said if there was further damage, and they had to rebuild the whole shebang, replace the block etc. it could cost upto £4500.
I couldn't be bothered to sink that sort of money in a 13 year old car so decided to sell to a webuyanycar type place for £900, declaring the engine kaput (Webuyanycar wouldn't touch it without a functioning engine, but one company was fine with it). I saw it advertised on a forecourt a couple of months later for £5k, so it was definitely worth fixing for someone out there.
Edited by wyson on Thursday 22 August 05:58
pheonix478 said:
That's the problem with youth today, some think they can jump in a car and it will look after itself , and ignore tell tail signs , I've taught my son, daughter basic checks , preventative maintenance , tyre pressures , tread depth , rotation every 12 months , engine oil level , fluid levels , basic stuff ,, in the long run they have saved money.
Purosangue said:
pheonix478 said:
That's the problem with youth today, some think they can jump in a car and it will look after itself , and ignore tell tail signs , I've taught my son, daughter basic checks , preventative maintenance , tyre pressures , tread depth , rotation every 12 months , engine oil level , fluid levels , basic stuff ,, in the long run they have saved money.
I asked when it was last serviced, he said it is mot'd every year & he genuinely thought an mot had a service included!!!!!!!
Oil filter had collapsed & virtually blocked the oil path from the filter.
VERY luckily for him this was removable & hadn't QUITE blocked the oil path.
Filter change, oil out, flush & run with lighter than correct oil for an hour & another oil & filter change & he dodged a bullet.
shtu said:
unsprung, in the nicest possible way you're living in a dream world.
No dealer is going to do anything other than replace a seized engine outright with a factory exchange or outright new, for the simple reason that they have to warranty the work.
The kind of customer that doesn't realise they have to change the oil sometimes is not the kind of customer that understands the intricacies of "maybe we can replace some bits and it'll be ok". They;re more "you fixed it, it's broken again, I want it fixed again for free."
Well, maybe not a dream world, but he’s living in the US, where you’d get run out of town for suggesting leaving oil in an engine beyond 3000 miles.No dealer is going to do anything other than replace a seized engine outright with a factory exchange or outright new, for the simple reason that they have to warranty the work.
The kind of customer that doesn't realise they have to change the oil sometimes is not the kind of customer that understands the intricacies of "maybe we can replace some bits and it'll be ok". They;re more "you fixed it, it's broken again, I want it fixed again for free."
Sweeping generalisation re earlier public sector comments - I have NHS and teacher daughters and it seems all of their colleagues lurch from one car crises to another, especially the NHS, where that daughter’s colleagues were aghast that her car was in for a service one day. They get their cars MOT’d and fix them when they break. They think garages are there to rip people off.
Zedboy said:
Many thanks for the considered reply - some great advice here beyond replacement engine
to be fair bad and unrealistic though.It has nothing to do with the dealer regardless of age or mileage. Total neglect is the owners fault, and never warranty or goodwill.
If it has actually driven until it is seized, you can be sure it's f
ked. That is reality.Complete new engine/turbo etc required ( entire oil system if any coolers etc involved )
Find a reputable place that can supply/fit so any issues can be dealt with at one place.
Tough lesson....should these things ever need to get this far though ?
STe_rsv4 said:
Yep! pass that unknown 2nd hand engine on to someone else and let them worry about it eh. 
To be fair.....pretty much any cars they get as trade in are unknown anyway, they're all not new engines etcDealers will just roll them out onto the forecourt and flog them, usually with an aftermarket warranty to try and absolve them of any liabilities for what has been sold.
If the job is done right, and if the engine sourced from a reputable breaker, then little reason why it should be no worse than any other second hand car.
A few IF's there, but there always is
SteBrown91 said:
Not sure what this has to do with anything? Working in the public sector doesn’t mean you deserve a break for not doing something glaringly obvious. The cars even tell you to service them for fks sake!
It’s like those morons who can’t be bothered to insure their house for £15 quid a month but wheel out the go fund me and Facebook campaign when it burns down.
Reminds me of the Facebook posts you see begging for stuff, usually have to drop in there that they are a NHS key worker or something similar. ks sake!It’s like those morons who can’t be bothered to insure their house for £15 quid a month but wheel out the go fund me and Facebook campaign when it burns down.
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