Aston Martin Enthusiasts - Miscellaneous

Aston Martin Enthusiasts - Miscellaneous

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SL500UK

285 posts

118 months

Monday 29th March
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Jon39 said:


was only 0.89 second slower

In F1 terms this means he'll get lapped before the end of the race. I do hope Seb gets his form back, they say form is temporary and class is permanent but looking at his drives in the last couple of years I'm thinking maybe he's lost his mojo?


EVR

1,171 posts

25 months

Monday 29th March
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I've watched the GP. And fell asleep, no kidding. biggrin

Best part was the safety car at the beginning and the cabin shots too, with the two gentlemen. Also when Jean Alesi and some other guy joked about getting the safety car and drive away.

MO55

2,030 posts

132 months

Tuesday 30th March
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Seb, not the most auspicious display was it, one crash, two penalties and five penalty points. The Ocon shunt somehow wasn't a massive surprise, Seb does have a history of lashing out immediately when being out maneuvered on track. I sincerely hope that we very soon see him regain his former superb race winning abilities, for him, we the fans and for the AMR F1 team.

NFC 85 Vette

3,085 posts

201 months

Tuesday 30th March
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MO55 said:
Seb, not the most auspicious display was it, one crash, two penalties and five penalty points. The Ocon shunt somehow wasn't a massive surprise, Seb does have a history of lashing out immediately when being out maneuvered on track. I sincerely hope that we very soon see him regain his former superb race winning abilities, for him, we the fans and for the AMR F1 team.
Unsurprisingly, much was made of Seb's error. It was entirely his fault, but a mixture of being in the wash of Ocon and still getting to grips with an entirely new car, made it look worse than it was.

His every steering input and throttle application has been under the microscope since Hockenheim 2018, which is unfortunate, because he's still box office material when he's got trust in the car and the team - as it stands, he has a team behind him now, but he's still chasing the car. A few more race weekends and we'll have a clearer picture of where he is. Seat time is everything at the moment, the rule change has caused headaches for any team running a low rake design ethos, and it'll take a few races to get a handle on setup and how to extract the best from the package IMO.

With the grid closing up, it's going to be more difficult to regain lost ground when it goes belly up, but on the flip side, finding just a tenth of lap time in qualifying will make a bigger difference than in previous years.

As noted elsewhere, it seems the Vantage Safety Car has gone down fairly well.

Jon39

Original Poster:

8,126 posts

108 months

Wednesday
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In 2020 Racing Point had (I think) their most succesful season. Therefore all looked very good for this season, especially because the planned major 2021 regulation change was deferred for one year.

There were however some changes to the aerodynamic regulations (I believe to reduce turbulence for a following car).
Aston Martin's form so far this year has been worse than in 2020. The team refer to the 'low rake' cars (lower rear ride height) being adversely impacted by the 2021 aerodynamic regulation change.

The two teams with 'low rake' cars are Mercedes and Aston Martin.
At present Mercedes are 1st with 141 points and Aston Martin are 7th with 5 points.
Therefore, how can low rake be their main problem ?



NFC 85 Vette

3,085 posts

201 months

Wednesday
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Jon39 said:

In 2020 Racing Point had (I think) their most succesful season. Therefore all looked very good for this season, especially because the planned major 2021 regulation change was deferred for one year.

There were however some changes to the aerodynamic regulations (I believe to reduce turbulence for a following car).
Aston Martin's form so far this year has been worse than in 2020. The team refer to the 'low rake' cars (lower rear ride height) being adversely impacted by the 2021 aerodynamic regulation change.

The two teams with 'low rake' cars are Mercedes and Aston Martin.
At present Mercedes are 1st with 141 points and Aston Martin are 7th with 5 points.
Therefore, how can low rake be their main problem ?
As it stands, the 'homework copying' exercise only worked for last year's exam paper. Mercedes has 1000 employees, and so when it realised the low rake concept was handicapped by the rule changes this year, it caused some head scratching, but because they knew why they'd designed that car like they had, they had a good handle on how to work around it to remedy any handling or downforce issues, and despite the cost cap, they have the resource to throw a lot of people at the problem and fix it almost immediately. The result you see now is Mercedes are not far off being the dominant package again - most of us would like to see a proper Hamilton vs Verstappen fight all season long, but I think the engineering might at Brackley will develop the Merc beyond what Red Bull can keep pace with.

The 2021 Aston car is still finding its way, and after last year's change of how many parts could be bought in, they're needing to learn as they go long and develop solutions like every other team. In a way its perhaps their reward for such blatant lack of innovation (copying wasn't cheating, but these days is deemed unsporting). You could argue that they'd have been better off copying last year's Red Bull as it would leave them better placed this year - lesson learnt, but they're tied to Mercedes in a similar way that Haas are with Ferrari, and neither automatically guarantee on track success.

Pace wise, they're not in the abyss, and the car isn't terrible but the grid has closed up in the midfield now that a 10th here or there makes the difference between 9th and 17th. That's how F1 should be, but it means teams need to turn the R&D tap on from the get go and keep developing it throughout the year.

The elephant in the room is how hard do you go at it this year before turning to development of the 2022 car. Next year's a whole different kettle of fish, and playing devils advocate, if you can stomach finishing lower than you could perhaps do this year, it affords you more resource and money to design next year's car, and as importantly, a lower WCC placement affords you more wind tunnel time next year. That's why Haas aren't at all bothered about 2021, and turn up each weekend having merely washed their cars and attached replacement bits following Nikita's many, many off track excursions...

Jon39

Original Poster:

8,126 posts

108 months

Wednesday
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With a hobby racer's track car, you could simply adjust the rear coil-overs, to change a high rake car into a low rake car.

In F1, it sounds as though you almost need a new factory, before that change can be successfully achieved. smile




NFC 85 Vette

3,085 posts

201 months

Wednesday
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Jon39 said:

With a hobby racer's track car, you could simply adjust the rear coil-overs, to change a high rake car into a low rake car.

In F1, it sounds as though you almost need a new factory, before that change can be successfully achieved. smile
Logically, many have said "just jack the rear of the car up, fixed!". The reality is that the low rake vs high rake design ethos are poles apart. I cannot confess to knowing the specifics, but IIRC it's linked to the vertical air gap between the floor and the rear brake duct assembly. This year with less surface area in the floor directly ahead of the rear wheels and brake assembly, it's proving less aero efficient to work the floor from beneath than it is on top (that's a very simplistic description). Much like 2008, the cars now wear so many little aero trinkets, vortex generators, fins, winglets and so on, that if the core design foundation isn't quite working, it can cause all sorts of stability and handling quirks.

For Mercedes, it's probably fortuitous that the change came before the cost cap really takes hold. They have such a large organisation still that it's a problem area that can be designed out or worked around relatively quickly. At Aston, they're a much smaller outfit with less resource so tackling the problem takes longer. If this conversation happened in 3 years time when both teams (probably) have head counts broadly similar, there perhaps wouldn't be such a gulf between how quickly the teams handled the regulation change.

When the team started in 1991 (as Jordan), that car was designed by 3 people (one did the aero and bodywork, one did the suspension and one did the gearbox). How times change.

Mr.Tremlini

1,091 posts

66 months

Wednesday
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NFC 85 Vette said:
lots of knowledgeable stuff, and especially "blatant lack of innovation"
In 2021 Aston Martin have hung their name on a car that was a replica of a 2019 version, and now need to hobble together a somewhat competent package from their previous copy paste scenario, while awaiting the 2022 reshuffle and pretending to be concerned about this year. I'm sure many of the staff are somewhat demotivated after being told not to be creative, just do what Mercedes are doing.

NFC 85 Vette

3,085 posts

201 months

Wednesday
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Mr.Tremlini said:
In 2021 Aston Martin have hung their name on a car that was a replica of a 2019 version, and now need to hobble together a somewhat competent package from their previous copy paste scenario, while awaiting the 2022 reshuffle and pretending to be concerned about this year. I'm sure many of the staff are somewhat demotivated after being told not to be creative, just do what Mercedes are doing.
I cant recall who said it, but recently a former F1 executive / technical chief made some fairly strong remarks about the team feeling a bit disillusioned about the instruction to go ahead with designing a car that was as close to a replica as possible. F1's a unique category in so much as you strive for technical excellence for success, but you want to find it by yourself, not by pinching ideas (or a whole design ethos) from elsewhere. The crux of it was that the design team would have preferred to do their own thing because they'd be in control of their own destiny, should something change later down the line...

...sometime later, the floor regulations were tinkered with, to 'level the playing field' or to more accurately explain it, handicap low rake cars (the technical regulation folks at the FIA aren't clowns, they knew exactly what they were implementing). The design team as Aston are smart, efficient people so they'll get on top of it soon enough, but truthfully the decision to copy the 2019 Merc was only ever going to be for a very short term gain IMO.

That said, this year's car's moved on in a number of areas, so it hasn't stayed rooted to the spot. The trouble is that Alpine are starting to show pace, Alpha Tauri have a decent little car, and McLaren and Ferrari are quickly becoming a speck ahead of them.

Jon39

Original Poster:

8,126 posts

108 months

Wednesday
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NFC 85 Vette said:
...... That said, this year's car's moved on in a number of areas, so it hasn't stayed rooted to the spot. The trouble is that Alpine are starting to show pace, Alpha Tauri have a decent little car, and McLaren and Ferrari are quickly becoming a speck ahead of them.

and all that new sponsorship money, which came to the Stroll privately owned F1 team, on the strength of 2020 results and also to be associated with the Aston Martin name for 2021. The sponsors might be wondering why only 5 points are in the bag at present (10 if you include the very mature and experienced, four times world champion's penalty points).


Neil1300r

5,255 posts

143 months

Wednesday
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https://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/is-aston-martin...

I don't know how true anything in the article is, but it seems to support some of the discussions above
Y

NFC 85 Vette

3,085 posts

201 months

Wednesday
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Jon39 said:

and all that new sponsorship money, which came to the Stroll privately owned F1 team, on the strength of 2020 results and also to be associated with the Aston Martin name for 2021. The sponsors might be wondering why only 5 points are in the bag at present (10 if you include the very mature and experienced, four times world champion's penalty points).
Perhaps, but while sponsors might look at results, equally they look for exposure. So while the midfield is very congested and tight currently, with that brings plenty of screen time for the cars in the thick of it. It's a pretty good year to be a sponsor in that regard - in previous years, if you were sponsoring a team that was in the no mans land between the top two and the midfield, not really racing anybody, the TV director never really showed much interest. It's another reason the Safety Car has been quite a success (noted in the TM interview, it brought a massive amount of interest to the Vantage configurator for example).

On the topic of Seb; the media seem to have backed off the relentless criticism ever so slightly, and realised that changing teams and having very little testing before a season starts, does a driver few favours. At this moment in time, I don't think any of the drivers who moved teams over the winter are beating their team mates in the WDC standings.

Deep down though, I think Seb might walk at the end of the season if he's not got his mojo back. He seems quite relaxed now he's not at the pressure cooker environment of Maranello, but he's competitive and IMO he has the presence of mind to know when it's time to walk away if it just isn't coming good. Monaco is quite an important race for him; if you don't have complete trust in the car that's under you in Monte Carlo, you aren't going to be quick, and there's a high probability of throwing it at the armco in frustration at not being at one with the car.

Monaco itself; utterly pointless trying to race with cars that long and that wide - you have to treat race day as if it's a hill climb with every entrant setting off at the same time laugh

LTP

772 posts

77 months

Wednesday
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Jon39 said:
The sponsors might be wondering why only 5 points are in the bag at present (10 if you include the very mature and experienced, four times world champion's penalty points).
And some may wonder why the 4-times World Champion driver is in the No. 2 car - as shown by the yellow T-bar on the top, whereas the No. 1 car appears to be driven by Lance Stroll, who is virtually a rookie driver. I wonder what Lawrence Stroll was thinking....oh, wait.

NFC 85 Vette

3,085 posts

201 months

Wednesday
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LTP said:
And some may wonder why the 4-times World Champion driver is in the No. 2 car - as shown by the yellow T-bar on the top, whereas the No. 1 car appears to be driven by Lance Stroll, who is virtually a rookie driver. I wonder what Lawrence Stroll was thinking....oh, wait.
While Stroll's young (22), he's not a rookie IMO - 82 race starts, 3 podiums, 1 pole. Like I noted before, his entry into F1 may have come from family wealth, but he's retained a seat based on talent, speed, and ever increasing maturity and race craft. Whatever issues Seb's having adjusting to the car, Lance is doing a decent job and probably represents where the car's pace really is currently (as disappointing as that might be for us wanting Aston to be at the front of the grid).

When it comes to drivers who are there because of daddy's cash, and not necessarily raw talent, that's being redefined in wonderful technicolor by Nikita.
(I cannot wait for the Haas content on Drive to Survive next year).

williamp

17,631 posts

238 months

Wednesday
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Back in the 50s, Aston entered F1 at least a year too late, and didnt do well.

You could say the same now- last years RP as an aston would be a race winner....

Mind you, they have scored more points already then in 59 and '60, although their best result of 6th hasnt been beaten yet...

Maybe Aston are being true to form??


NFC 85 Vette

3,085 posts

201 months

Yesterday (06:18)
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williamp said:
Back in the 50s, Aston entered F1 at least a year too late, and didnt do well.

You could say the same now- last years RP as an aston would be a race winner....

Mind you, they have scored more points already then in 59 and '60, although their best result of 6th hasnt been beaten yet...

Maybe Aston are being true to form??
On the plus side, they have 20 races to go, which is double the number of events in 1960, so there's ample opportunity to improve. Much like in high level football though, if you're not winning instantly, you're failing and there's an expectation of having heads on spikes and corporal punishment administered during a debrief.