Aston Martin Enthusiasts - Miscellaneous
Discussion
Jon39 said:
was only 0.89 second slower
Seb, not the most auspicious display was it, one crash, two penalties and five penalty points. The Ocon shunt somehow wasn't a massive surprise, Seb does have a history of lashing out immediately when being out maneuvered on track. I sincerely hope that we very soon see him regain his former superb race winning abilities, for him, we the fans and for the AMR F1 team. 
MO55 said:
Seb, not the most auspicious display was it, one crash, two penalties and five penalty points. The Ocon shunt somehow wasn't a massive surprise, Seb does have a history of lashing out immediately when being out maneuvered on track. I sincerely hope that we very soon see him regain his former superb race winning abilities, for him, we the fans and for the AMR F1 team.
Unsurprisingly, much was made of Seb's error. It was entirely his fault, but a mixture of being in the wash of Ocon and still getting to grips with an entirely new car, made it look worse than it was. His every steering input and throttle application has been under the microscope since Hockenheim 2018, which is unfortunate, because he's still box office material when he's got trust in the car and the team - as it stands, he has a team behind him now, but he's still chasing the car. A few more race weekends and we'll have a clearer picture of where he is. Seat time is everything at the moment, the rule change has caused headaches for any team running a low rake design ethos, and it'll take a few races to get a handle on setup and how to extract the best from the package IMO.
With the grid closing up, it's going to be more difficult to regain lost ground when it goes belly up, but on the flip side, finding just a tenth of lap time in qualifying will make a bigger difference than in previous years.
As noted elsewhere, it seems the Vantage Safety Car has gone down fairly well.
In 2020 Racing Point had (I think) their most succesful season. Therefore all looked very good for this season, especially because the planned major 2021 regulation change was deferred for one year.
There were however some changes to the aerodynamic regulations (I believe to reduce turbulence for a following car).
Aston Martin's form so far this year has been worse than in 2020. The team refer to the 'low rake' cars (lower rear ride height) being adversely impacted by the 2021 aerodynamic regulation change.
The two teams with 'low rake' cars are Mercedes and Aston Martin.
At present Mercedes are 1st with 141 points and Aston Martin are 7th with 5 points.
Therefore, how can low rake be their main problem ?
Jon39 said:
In 2020 Racing Point had (I think) their most succesful season. Therefore all looked very good for this season, especially because the planned major 2021 regulation change was deferred for one year.
There were however some changes to the aerodynamic regulations (I believe to reduce turbulence for a following car).
Aston Martin's form so far this year has been worse than in 2020. The team refer to the 'low rake' cars (lower rear ride height) being adversely impacted by the 2021 aerodynamic regulation change.
The two teams with 'low rake' cars are Mercedes and Aston Martin.
At present Mercedes are 1st with 141 points and Aston Martin are 7th with 5 points.
Therefore, how can low rake be their main problem ?
The 2021 Aston car is still finding its way, and after last year's change of how many parts could be bought in, they're needing to learn as they go long and develop solutions like every other team. In a way its perhaps their reward for such blatant lack of innovation (copying wasn't cheating, but these days is deemed unsporting). You could argue that they'd have been better off copying last year's Red Bull as it would leave them better placed this year - lesson learnt, but they're tied to Mercedes in a similar way that Haas are with Ferrari, and neither automatically guarantee on track success.
Pace wise, they're not in the abyss, and the car isn't terrible but the grid has closed up in the midfield now that a 10th here or there makes the difference between 9th and 17th. That's how F1 should be, but it means teams need to turn the R&D tap on from the get go and keep developing it throughout the year.
The elephant in the room is how hard do you go at it this year before turning to development of the 2022 car. Next year's a whole different kettle of fish, and playing devils advocate, if you can stomach finishing lower than you could perhaps do this year, it affords you more resource and money to design next year's car, and as importantly, a lower WCC placement affords you more wind tunnel time next year. That's why Haas aren't at all bothered about 2021, and turn up each weekend having merely washed their cars and attached replacement bits following Nikita's many, many off track excursions...
Jon39 said:
With a hobby racer's track car, you could simply adjust the rear coil-overs, to change a high rake car into a low rake car.
In F1, it sounds as though you almost need a new factory, before that change can be successfully achieved.
For Mercedes, it's probably fortuitous that the change came before the cost cap really takes hold. They have such a large organisation still that it's a problem area that can be designed out or worked around relatively quickly. At Aston, they're a much smaller outfit with less resource so tackling the problem takes longer. If this conversation happened in 3 years time when both teams (probably) have head counts broadly similar, there perhaps wouldn't be such a gulf between how quickly the teams handled the regulation change.
When the team started in 1991 (as Jordan), that car was designed by 3 people (one did the aero and bodywork, one did the suspension and one did the gearbox). How times change.
NFC 85 Vette said:
lots of knowledgeable stuff, and especially "blatant lack of innovation"
In 2021 Aston Martin have hung their name on a car that was a replica of a 2019 version, and now need to hobble together a somewhat competent package from their previous copy paste scenario, while awaiting the 2022 reshuffle and pretending to be concerned about this year. I'm sure many of the staff are somewhat demotivated after being told not to be creative, just do what Mercedes are doing.Mr.Tremlini said:
In 2021 Aston Martin have hung their name on a car that was a replica of a 2019 version, and now need to hobble together a somewhat competent package from their previous copy paste scenario, while awaiting the 2022 reshuffle and pretending to be concerned about this year. I'm sure many of the staff are somewhat demotivated after being told not to be creative, just do what Mercedes are doing.
I cant recall who said it, but recently a former F1 executive / technical chief made some fairly strong remarks about the team feeling a bit disillusioned about the instruction to go ahead with designing a car that was as close to a replica as possible. F1's a unique category in so much as you strive for technical excellence for success, but you want to find it by yourself, not by pinching ideas (or a whole design ethos) from elsewhere. The crux of it was that the design team would have preferred to do their own thing because they'd be in control of their own destiny, should something change later down the line......sometime later, the floor regulations were tinkered with, to 'level the playing field' or to more accurately explain it, handicap low rake cars (the technical regulation folks at the FIA aren't clowns, they knew exactly what they were implementing). The design team as Aston are smart, efficient people so they'll get on top of it soon enough, but truthfully the decision to copy the 2019 Merc was only ever going to be for a very short term gain IMO.
That said, this year's car's moved on in a number of areas, so it hasn't stayed rooted to the spot. The trouble is that Alpine are starting to show pace, Alpha Tauri have a decent little car, and McLaren and Ferrari are quickly becoming a speck ahead of them.
NFC 85 Vette said:
...... That said, this year's car's moved on in a number of areas, so it hasn't stayed rooted to the spot. The trouble is that Alpine are starting to show pace, Alpha Tauri have a decent little car, and McLaren and Ferrari are quickly becoming a speck ahead of them.
and all that new sponsorship money, which came to the Stroll privately owned F1 team, on the strength of 2020 results and also to be associated with the Aston Martin name for 2021. The sponsors might be wondering why only 5 points are in the bag at present (10 if you include the very mature and experienced, four times world champion's penalty points).
https://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/is-aston-martin...
I don't know how true anything in the article is, but it seems to support some of the discussions above
Y
I don't know how true anything in the article is, but it seems to support some of the discussions above
Y
Jon39 said:
and all that new sponsorship money, which came to the Stroll privately owned F1 team, on the strength of 2020 results and also to be associated with the Aston Martin name for 2021. The sponsors might be wondering why only 5 points are in the bag at present (10 if you include the very mature and experienced, four times world champion's penalty points).
On the topic of Seb; the media seem to have backed off the relentless criticism ever so slightly, and realised that changing teams and having very little testing before a season starts, does a driver few favours. At this moment in time, I don't think any of the drivers who moved teams over the winter are beating their team mates in the WDC standings.
Deep down though, I think Seb might walk at the end of the season if he's not got his mojo back. He seems quite relaxed now he's not at the pressure cooker environment of Maranello, but he's competitive and IMO he has the presence of mind to know when it's time to walk away if it just isn't coming good. Monaco is quite an important race for him; if you don't have complete trust in the car that's under you in Monte Carlo, you aren't going to be quick, and there's a high probability of throwing it at the armco in frustration at not being at one with the car.
Monaco itself; utterly pointless trying to race with cars that long and that wide - you have to treat race day as if it's a hill climb with every entrant setting off at the same time
Jon39 said:
The sponsors might be wondering why only 5 points are in the bag at present (10 if you include the very mature and experienced, four times world champion's penalty points).
And some may wonder why the 4-times World Champion driver is in the No. 2 car - as shown by the yellow T-bar on the top, whereas the No. 1 car appears to be driven by Lance Stroll, who is virtually a rookie driver. I wonder what Lawrence Stroll was thinking....oh, wait.LTP said:
And some may wonder why the 4-times World Champion driver is in the No. 2 car - as shown by the yellow T-bar on the top, whereas the No. 1 car appears to be driven by Lance Stroll, who is virtually a rookie driver. I wonder what Lawrence Stroll was thinking....oh, wait.
While Stroll's young (22), he's not a rookie IMO - 82 race starts, 3 podiums, 1 pole. Like I noted before, his entry into F1 may have come from family wealth, but he's retained a seat based on talent, speed, and ever increasing maturity and race craft. Whatever issues Seb's having adjusting to the car, Lance is doing a decent job and probably represents where the car's pace really is currently (as disappointing as that might be for us wanting Aston to be at the front of the grid).When it comes to drivers who are there because of daddy's cash, and not necessarily raw talent, that's being redefined in wonderful technicolor by Nikita.
(I cannot wait for the Haas content on Drive to Survive next year).
Back in the 50s, Aston entered F1 at least a year too late, and didnt do well.
You could say the same now- last years RP as an aston would be a race winner....
Mind you, they have scored more points already then in 59 and '60, although their best result of 6th hasnt been beaten yet...
Maybe Aston are being true to form??
You could say the same now- last years RP as an aston would be a race winner....
Mind you, they have scored more points already then in 59 and '60, although their best result of 6th hasnt been beaten yet...
Maybe Aston are being true to form??
williamp said:
Back in the 50s, Aston entered F1 at least a year too late, and didnt do well.
You could say the same now- last years RP as an aston would be a race winner....
Mind you, they have scored more points already then in 59 and '60, although their best result of 6th hasnt been beaten yet...
Maybe Aston are being true to form??
On the plus side, they have 20 races to go, which is double the number of events in 1960, so there's ample opportunity to improve. Much like in high level football though, if you're not winning instantly, you're failing and there's an expectation of having heads on spikes and corporal punishment administered during a debrief.You could say the same now- last years RP as an aston would be a race winner....
Mind you, they have scored more points already then in 59 and '60, although their best result of 6th hasnt been beaten yet...
Maybe Aston are being true to form??
Monaco was an interesting weekend IMO; while there's nearly always complaints about a lack of overtaking - let's be honest for a moment. The cars are now half a metre longer than a Rapide (in fact the Mercedes is about 5.7 metres long) and 2 metres wide, Monaco's just a hill climb track with strategic moves to gain or lose places. The spectacle of threading cars around the place at an average speed of over 100mph I still find impressive, but it's increasingly lost on viewers expecting wheel to wheel racing. If the cars were still the diminutive Coopers from the early 1960's, it would be very different.
Contrary to the 'washed up has-been' tag, Seb had a decent weekend I thought. Some great pace, in particular to get the overcut done, and was faultless throughout. Lance was certainly trying, I hoped after his stop he could have got back on the gearbox of Hamilton but perhaps in hindsight, holding station was the smart thing to do having got some air time at turn 15 and 16 a few times.
Baku might be another decent outing. It's one of Stroll's strongest tracks, and the car seems to have good pace on low abrasion tracks. Maybe they're finally getting a handle on the floor regs, and thankfully they seem to avoided the limbo wing nonsense, so far anyway.
Contrary to the 'washed up has-been' tag, Seb had a decent weekend I thought. Some great pace, in particular to get the overcut done, and was faultless throughout. Lance was certainly trying, I hoped after his stop he could have got back on the gearbox of Hamilton but perhaps in hindsight, holding station was the smart thing to do having got some air time at turn 15 and 16 a few times.
Baku might be another decent outing. It's one of Stroll's strongest tracks, and the car seems to have good pace on low abrasion tracks. Maybe they're finally getting a handle on the floor regs, and thankfully they seem to avoided the limbo wing nonsense, so far anyway.
Yes, the team should be pleased and perhaps relieved, with their Monaco performance.
A big move up in the Constructors table.
Sebastian Vettel must be pleased with his own results. For the first time since joining the team, he was ahead of Lance Stroll in Practice, Qualifying and Race.
It was a good weekend for Seb, his experience really showed in the race, and a decent result overall for the team. Monte Carlo is a very different track and tactic than the typical race tracks, but it`s all part of the tapestry of F1 that creates opportunities for different teams throughout the season. The overcut worked nicely and it was good to see Seb muscling it ahead of Gasly on pit exit up through Beau Rivage. Fingers crossed that it is a turning point for the team and they can be consistent in the points and well placed in the mid-field battles.
Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff