Man After My Own Heart ... The Future Isn't Electric
Discussion
Yep and any bridge to anything, I.E creating vehicles and all the r&d that goes in to them is awful for the planet. So bridging the gap is not exactly a good thing.
We are being led up the garden path again - as usual.
If governments really wanted to reduce emissions they’d stop companies manufacturing so much stuff and deal with that. But they won’t, because they don’t want to harm the economy. Sadly this “green revolution” which I am very confident will achieve very little ultimately but will probably cause many manufacturers to go under anyway (and still not hit the goals).
To me cars etc are small fry. And most of what is currently popular as “green” isn’t actually green it’s just people and companies trying to out PC each other. Not many actually care. They just say the right things / have to be seen to. We live in an era where saying the politically correct thing is more important than actually doing the right thing.
You’re shot down and shamed now if you question anything. It’s truly nuts.
You can’t tell me that creating a s
t load of ev’s, all earths materials that go in to it, not to mention it is finite, the infrastructure role out.. and the fact that in 5/10/15 years all the stuff now will be st and out of date. Making all of this stuff is not good for the environment!
Blind leading the blind.
Why anyone would believe our government after the last two years performance is beyond me. What it has proven though is that by large, the population is very easy to control.
So yes… ev’s are the future… until they aren’t anymore.
We are being led up the garden path again - as usual.
If governments really wanted to reduce emissions they’d stop companies manufacturing so much stuff and deal with that. But they won’t, because they don’t want to harm the economy. Sadly this “green revolution” which I am very confident will achieve very little ultimately but will probably cause many manufacturers to go under anyway (and still not hit the goals).
To me cars etc are small fry. And most of what is currently popular as “green” isn’t actually green it’s just people and companies trying to out PC each other. Not many actually care. They just say the right things / have to be seen to. We live in an era where saying the politically correct thing is more important than actually doing the right thing.
You’re shot down and shamed now if you question anything. It’s truly nuts.
You can’t tell me that creating a s
t load of ev’s, all earths materials that go in to it, not to mention it is finite, the infrastructure role out.. and the fact that in 5/10/15 years all the stuff now will be st and out of date. Making all of this stuff is not good for the environment!Blind leading the blind.
Why anyone would believe our government after the last two years performance is beyond me. What it has proven though is that by large, the population is very easy to control.
So yes… ev’s are the future… until they aren’t anymore.
Edited by Finding Neutral on Saturday 16th April 21:30
The market is reacting to Tesla and the push for electrification as a political tool.
For many the electric car is brilliant. Charging for lots of people isn't a major issue nor is range. Also all the nasty pollutants are out of sight and out of mind.
The issue is this weird fantasy that ev is the answer for everything, in the same way it would be silly to have said 15 years ago that diesel was the only fuel everyone should use (though some did say this)
As with everything in life, one size doesn't fit all and one approach is not going to work for everything, especially as it's still in its infancy.
I think for most people an ev or a petrol hybrid will be perfect for them. Others will require different things.
An ev would suit my requirements but a big petrol sports car meets my desires.
For many the electric car is brilliant. Charging for lots of people isn't a major issue nor is range. Also all the nasty pollutants are out of sight and out of mind.
The issue is this weird fantasy that ev is the answer for everything, in the same way it would be silly to have said 15 years ago that diesel was the only fuel everyone should use (though some did say this)
As with everything in life, one size doesn't fit all and one approach is not going to work for everything, especially as it's still in its infancy.
I think for most people an ev or a petrol hybrid will be perfect for them. Others will require different things.
An ev would suit my requirements but a big petrol sports car meets my desires.
Finding Neutral said:
Yep and any bridge to anything, I.E creating vehicles and all the r&d that goes in to them is awful for the planet. So bridging the gap is not exactly a good thing.
We are being led up the garden path again - as usual.
If governments really wanted to reduce emissions they’d stop companies manufacturing so much stuff and deal with that. But they won’t, because they don’t want to harm the economy. Sadly this “green revolution” which I am very confident will achieve very little ultimately but will probably cause many manufacturers to go under anyway (and still not hit the goals).
To me cars etc are small fry. And most of what is currently popular as “green” isn’t actually green it’s just people and companies trying to out PC each other. Not many actually care. They just say the right things / have to be seen to. We live in an era where saying the politically correct thing is more important than actually doing the right thing.
You’re shot down and shamed now if you question anything. It’s truly nuts.
You can’t tell me that creating a st load of ev’s, all earths materials that go in to it, not to mention it is finite, the infrastructure role out.. and the fact that in 5/10/15 years all the stuff now will be st and out of date. Making all of this stuff is not good for the environment!
Blind leading the blind.
Why anyone would believe our government after the last two years performance is beyond me. What it has proven though is that by large, the population is very easy to control.
So yes… ev’s are the future… until they aren’t anymore.
Couldn't agree more .... It will all come back around just like Diesel has.We are being led up the garden path again - as usual.
If governments really wanted to reduce emissions they’d stop companies manufacturing so much stuff and deal with that. But they won’t, because they don’t want to harm the economy. Sadly this “green revolution” which I am very confident will achieve very little ultimately but will probably cause many manufacturers to go under anyway (and still not hit the goals).
To me cars etc are small fry. And most of what is currently popular as “green” isn’t actually green it’s just people and companies trying to out PC each other. Not many actually care. They just say the right things / have to be seen to. We live in an era where saying the politically correct thing is more important than actually doing the right thing.
You’re shot down and shamed now if you question anything. It’s truly nuts.
You can’t tell me that creating a s
t load of ev’s, all earths materials that go in to it, not to mention it is finite, the infrastructure role out.. and the fact that in 5/10/15 years all the stuff now will be st and out of date. Making all of this stuff is not good for the environment!Blind leading the blind.
Why anyone would believe our government after the last two years performance is beyond me. What it has proven though is that by large, the population is very easy to control.
So yes… ev’s are the future… until they aren’t anymore.
Edited by Finding Neutral on Saturday 16th April 21:30
Finding Neutral said:
Yep and any bridge to anything, I.E creating vehicles and all the r&d that goes in to them is awful for the planet. So bridging the gap is not exactly a good thing.
We are being led up the garden path again - as usual.
If governments really wanted to reduce emissions they’d stop companies manufacturing so much stuff and deal with that. But they won’t, because they don’t want to harm the economy. Sadly this “green revolution” which I am very confident will achieve very little ultimately but will probably cause many manufacturers to go under anyway (and still not hit the goals).
To me cars etc are small fry. And most of what is currently popular as “green” isn’t actually green it’s just people and companies trying to out PC each other. Not many actually care. They just say the right things / have to be seen to. We live in an era where saying the politically correct thing is more important than actually doing the right thing.
You’re shot down and shamed now if you question anything. It’s truly nuts.
You can’t tell me that creating a st load of ev’s, all earths materials that go in to it, not to mention it is finite, the infrastructure role out.. and the fact that in 5/10/15 years all the stuff now will be st and out of date. Making all of this stuff is not good for the environment!
Blind leading the blind.
Why anyone would believe our government after the last two years performance is beyond me. What it has proven though is that by large, the population is very easy to control.
So yes… ev’s are the future… until they aren’t anymore.
Totally agree with this and the other posts. Your point regarding companies trying to out pc each is bang on, watching most of the adverts on TV nowadays is beyond ridiculous. We are being led up the garden path again - as usual.
If governments really wanted to reduce emissions they’d stop companies manufacturing so much stuff and deal with that. But they won’t, because they don’t want to harm the economy. Sadly this “green revolution” which I am very confident will achieve very little ultimately but will probably cause many manufacturers to go under anyway (and still not hit the goals).
To me cars etc are small fry. And most of what is currently popular as “green” isn’t actually green it’s just people and companies trying to out PC each other. Not many actually care. They just say the right things / have to be seen to. We live in an era where saying the politically correct thing is more important than actually doing the right thing.
You’re shot down and shamed now if you question anything. It’s truly nuts.
You can’t tell me that creating a s
t load of ev’s, all earths materials that go in to it, not to mention it is finite, the infrastructure role out.. and the fact that in 5/10/15 years all the stuff now will be st and out of date. Making all of this stuff is not good for the environment!Blind leading the blind.
Why anyone would believe our government after the last two years performance is beyond me. What it has proven though is that by large, the population is very easy to control.
So yes… ev’s are the future… until they aren’t anymore.
Edited by Finding Neutral on Saturday 16th April 21:30
I’ve long been of the opinion that we’re being led up the garden path on this ‘green’ agenda. Glad to see that it’s not only me thinking pure EV is crazy but other people as well as more motor manufacturers are starting to speak up too.
Finding Neutral said:
Yep and any bridge to anything, I.E creating vehicles and all the r&d that goes in to them is awful for the planet. So bridging the gap is not exactly a good thing.
We are being led up the garden path again - as usual.
If governments really wanted to reduce emissions they’d stop companies manufacturing so much stuff and deal with that. But they won’t, because they don’t want to harm the economy. Sadly this “green revolution” which I am very confident will achieve very little ultimately but will probably cause many manufacturers to go under anyway (and still not hit the goals).
To me cars etc are small fry. And most of what is currently popular as “green” isn’t actually green it’s just people and companies trying to out PC each other. Not many actually care. They just say the right things / have to be seen to. We live in an era where saying the politically correct thing is more important than actually doing the right thing.
You’re shot down and shamed now if you question anything. It’s truly nuts.
You can’t tell me that creating a st load of ev’s, all earths materials that go in to it, not to mention it is finite, the infrastructure role out.. and the fact that in 5/10/15 years all the stuff now will be st and out of date. Making all of this stuff is not good for the environment!
Blind leading the blind.
Why anyone would believe our government after the last two years performance is beyond me. What it has proven though is that by large, the population is very easy to control.
So yes… ev’s are the future… until they aren’t anymore.
100% you hit the nail on the head.We are being led up the garden path again - as usual.
If governments really wanted to reduce emissions they’d stop companies manufacturing so much stuff and deal with that. But they won’t, because they don’t want to harm the economy. Sadly this “green revolution” which I am very confident will achieve very little ultimately but will probably cause many manufacturers to go under anyway (and still not hit the goals).
To me cars etc are small fry. And most of what is currently popular as “green” isn’t actually green it’s just people and companies trying to out PC each other. Not many actually care. They just say the right things / have to be seen to. We live in an era where saying the politically correct thing is more important than actually doing the right thing.
You’re shot down and shamed now if you question anything. It’s truly nuts.
You can’t tell me that creating a s
t load of ev’s, all earths materials that go in to it, not to mention it is finite, the infrastructure role out.. and the fact that in 5/10/15 years all the stuff now will be st and out of date. Making all of this stuff is not good for the environment!Blind leading the blind.
Why anyone would believe our government after the last two years performance is beyond me. What it has proven though is that by large, the population is very easy to control.
So yes… ev’s are the future… until they aren’t anymore.
Edited by Finding Neutral on Saturday 16th April 21:30
The one telling in the green washing thing is when you watch any programme on EVs they force the message they are zero emission. They are not in any shape or form as ALL electricity has a carbon content. I recall the UK is between 30 and 100 gm CO2 per KM depending on where you live and what generates your electricity.
Veg said:
The one telling in the green washing thing is when you watch any programme on EVs they force the message they are zero emission. They are not in any shape or form as ALL electricity has a carbon content. I recall the UK is between 30 and 100 gm CO2 per KM depending on where you live and what generates your electricity.
In the UK it doesnt matter where you live all power is generated and delivered the same, as its fed into a national grid we all get equal amounts of green power and non green power.phumy said:
In the UK it doesnt matter where you live all power is generated and delivered the same, as its fed into a national grid we all get equal amounts of green power and non green power.
I saw a map once that detailed where the greenest electricity was located and inevitably it's in northern Scotland which is probably the place you will find the least amount of charging points (no evidence to back this claim up, just my thoughts based on number of people living in that area).Anyhow, this link shows the best and worst or most and least green and the highly populated areas are the least green .... Go figure!!
https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/how...
Edited by BiggaJ on Monday 18th April 15:16
BiggaJ said:
Finding Neutral said:
Yep and any bridge to anything, I.E creating vehicles and all the r&d that goes in to them is awful for the planet. So bridging the gap is not exactly a good thing.
We are being led up the garden path again - as usual.
If governments really wanted to reduce emissions they’d stop companies manufacturing so much stuff and deal with that. But they won’t, because they don’t want to harm the economy. Sadly this “green revolution” which I am very confident will achieve very little ultimately but will probably cause many manufacturers to go under anyway (and still not hit the goals).
To me cars etc are small fry. And most of what is currently popular as “green” isn’t actually green it’s just people and companies trying to out PC each other. Not many actually care. They just say the right things / have to be seen to. We live in an era where saying the politically correct thing is more important than actually doing the right thing.
You’re shot down and shamed now if you question anything. It’s truly nuts.
You can’t tell me that creating a st load of ev’s, all earths materials that go in to it, not to mention it is finite, the infrastructure role out.. and the fact that in 5/10/15 years all the stuff now will be st and out of date. Making all of this stuff is not good for the environment!
Blind leading the blind.
Why anyone would believe our government after the last two years performance is beyond me. What it has proven though is that by large, the population is very easy to control.
So yes… ev’s are the future… until they aren’t anymore.
Couldn't agree more .... It will all come back around just like Diesel has.We are being led up the garden path again - as usual.
If governments really wanted to reduce emissions they’d stop companies manufacturing so much stuff and deal with that. But they won’t, because they don’t want to harm the economy. Sadly this “green revolution” which I am very confident will achieve very little ultimately but will probably cause many manufacturers to go under anyway (and still not hit the goals).
To me cars etc are small fry. And most of what is currently popular as “green” isn’t actually green it’s just people and companies trying to out PC each other. Not many actually care. They just say the right things / have to be seen to. We live in an era where saying the politically correct thing is more important than actually doing the right thing.
You’re shot down and shamed now if you question anything. It’s truly nuts.
You can’t tell me that creating a s
t load of ev’s, all earths materials that go in to it, not to mention it is finite, the infrastructure role out.. and the fact that in 5/10/15 years all the stuff now will be st and out of date. Making all of this stuff is not good for the environment!Blind leading the blind.
Why anyone would believe our government after the last two years performance is beyond me. What it has proven though is that by large, the population is very easy to control.
So yes… ev’s are the future… until they aren’t anymore.
Edited by Finding Neutral on Saturday 16th April 21:30
Wait until all the current cars are effectively uneconomical to repair when they need a new battery, the cost of ownership will then be the entire cost of the car when new, plus its electrical useage, and that will be substantially more than a petrol car with some decent residual value.
The future is Hydrogen, but not until a lot of people have made a lot of money from the electric revolution.
The title of the article ("Aston Martin Executive Says Electric Cars Aren’t Viable") is misleading, he doesn't say that. It says that Reichman believes the future is "hydrogen fuel cells and biofuel"; well hydrogen fuel cell cars are EVs (not to be confused with hydrogen combustion cars). What Mr Reichman actually seems to be saying is that battery electric cars are not viable in the long term, specifically current generation lithium based chemical batteries, and I think that's far less controversial than is being made out.
Even EV enthusiasts largely agree that the battery is the weak point of current generation models, being large, heavy, expensive, relatively slow to charge, with a limited lifespan and relying on significant quantities of rare earth minerals. There is a difference between saying EVs are a dead end and saying that current generation battery electric cars are a stepping stone, and it's the latter that appears to be said here.
A lot of people on either side of this debate seem to focus on the drawbacks of the other side without acknowledging their own. The drawbacks of chemical batteries are significant, as stated above. But hydrogen has some pretty big ones too, chief among which is the question "where does the hydrogen come from". Hydrogen can be produced industrially from natural gas, but that requires a process that releases more CO2 than hydrogen, and you're still reliant on a finite supply of fossil fuels. So we're likely to end up making it with electricity, but then you have to invest in massive hydrogen production plants, large central storage units, distribution systems, smaller point of sale storage units and delivery systems. All so that you can turn that hydrogen back into electricity inside the fuel cell. From an infrastructure perspective it's much, much easier to just send the electricity through the grid and store it in a battery, which is why that's what has ended up happening. And that's before we get into the efficiency losses in all those systems. I haven't done the numbers, but I'm willing to bet taking some electricity, using it to make hydrogen, transporting that hydrogen hundreds of miles and then using the hydrogen to make electricity again will end up wasting quite a lot of energy. I'm not anti fuel-cell by any means, but these are real problems and I have seen plenty people just say "we can use hydrogen" as if it's a complete answer.
Bio-fuels sound like a great way to keep our V8s and V12s running into the future, and believe me I want that as much as any of you, but again it's not a perfect solution. Growing fuel crops means taking fertile land away from food production, which affects fuel prices. Staple crops have spiked in price recently pushing parts of the developing world to the brink of famine. Any shift towards bio-fuels needs to take such consequences into consideration.
e-fuels might be another potential solution too, but they are in their infancy. Solid state batteries or mega-capacitors might resolve all the issues with battery vehicles, but again it's still early days for that technology. I just hope people can learn to get over the tribalism that appears to have developed here and focus on an objective consideration of the various options, because we'll probably end up with a mix of all of them for different use cases.
Even EV enthusiasts largely agree that the battery is the weak point of current generation models, being large, heavy, expensive, relatively slow to charge, with a limited lifespan and relying on significant quantities of rare earth minerals. There is a difference between saying EVs are a dead end and saying that current generation battery electric cars are a stepping stone, and it's the latter that appears to be said here.
A lot of people on either side of this debate seem to focus on the drawbacks of the other side without acknowledging their own. The drawbacks of chemical batteries are significant, as stated above. But hydrogen has some pretty big ones too, chief among which is the question "where does the hydrogen come from". Hydrogen can be produced industrially from natural gas, but that requires a process that releases more CO2 than hydrogen, and you're still reliant on a finite supply of fossil fuels. So we're likely to end up making it with electricity, but then you have to invest in massive hydrogen production plants, large central storage units, distribution systems, smaller point of sale storage units and delivery systems. All so that you can turn that hydrogen back into electricity inside the fuel cell. From an infrastructure perspective it's much, much easier to just send the electricity through the grid and store it in a battery, which is why that's what has ended up happening. And that's before we get into the efficiency losses in all those systems. I haven't done the numbers, but I'm willing to bet taking some electricity, using it to make hydrogen, transporting that hydrogen hundreds of miles and then using the hydrogen to make electricity again will end up wasting quite a lot of energy. I'm not anti fuel-cell by any means, but these are real problems and I have seen plenty people just say "we can use hydrogen" as if it's a complete answer.
Bio-fuels sound like a great way to keep our V8s and V12s running into the future, and believe me I want that as much as any of you, but again it's not a perfect solution. Growing fuel crops means taking fertile land away from food production, which affects fuel prices. Staple crops have spiked in price recently pushing parts of the developing world to the brink of famine. Any shift towards bio-fuels needs to take such consequences into consideration.
e-fuels might be another potential solution too, but they are in their infancy. Solid state batteries or mega-capacitors might resolve all the issues with battery vehicles, but again it's still early days for that technology. I just hope people can learn to get over the tribalism that appears to have developed here and focus on an objective consideration of the various options, because we'll probably end up with a mix of all of them for different use cases.
murphyaj said:
The title of the article ("Aston Martin Executive Says Electric Cars Aren’t Viable") is misleading, he doesn't say that. It says that Reichman believes the future is "hydrogen fuel cells and biofuel"; well hydrogen fuel cell cars are EVs (not to be confused with hydrogen combustion cars). What Mr Reichman actually seems to be saying is that battery electric cars are not viable in the long term, specifically current generation lithium based chemical batteries, and I think that's far less controversial than is being made out.
Even EV enthusiasts largely agree that the battery is the weak point of current generation models, being large, heavy, expensive, relatively slow to charge, with a limited lifespan and relying on significant quantities of rare earth minerals. There is a difference between saying EVs are a dead end and saying that current generation battery electric cars are a stepping stone, and it's the latter that appears to be said here.
A lot of people on either side of this debate seem to focus on the drawbacks of the other side without acknowledging their own. The drawbacks of chemical batteries are significant, as stated above. But hydrogen has some pretty big ones too, chief among which is the question "where does the hydrogen come from". Hydrogen can be produced industrially from natural gas, but that requires a process that releases more CO2 than hydrogen, and you're still reliant on a finite supply of fossil fuels. So we're likely to end up making it with electricity, but then you have to invest in massive hydrogen production plants, large central storage units, distribution systems, smaller point of sale storage units and delivery systems. All so that you can turn that hydrogen back into electricity inside the fuel cell. From an infrastructure perspective it's much, much easier to just send the electricity through the grid and store it in a battery, which is why that's what has ended up happening. And that's before we get into the efficiency losses in all those systems. I haven't done the numbers, but I'm willing to bet taking some electricity, using it to make hydrogen, transporting that hydrogen hundreds of miles and then using the hydrogen to make electricity again will end up wasting quite a lot of energy. I'm not anti fuel-cell by any means, but these are real problems and I have seen plenty people just say "we can use hydrogen" as if it's a complete answer.
Bio-fuels sound like a great way to keep our V8s and V12s running into the future, and believe me I want that as much as any of you, but again it's not a perfect solution. Growing fuel crops means taking fertile land away from food production, which affects fuel prices. Staple crops have spiked in price recently pushing parts of the developing world to the brink of famine. Any shift towards bio-fuels needs to take such consequences into consideration.
e-fuels might be another potential solution too, but they are in their infancy. Solid state batteries or mega-capacitors might resolve all the issues with battery vehicles, but again it's still early days for that technology. I just hope people can learn to get over the tribalism that appears to have developed here and focus on an objective consideration of the various options, because we'll probably end up with a mix of all of them for different use cases.
just to addEven EV enthusiasts largely agree that the battery is the weak point of current generation models, being large, heavy, expensive, relatively slow to charge, with a limited lifespan and relying on significant quantities of rare earth minerals. There is a difference between saying EVs are a dead end and saying that current generation battery electric cars are a stepping stone, and it's the latter that appears to be said here.
A lot of people on either side of this debate seem to focus on the drawbacks of the other side without acknowledging their own. The drawbacks of chemical batteries are significant, as stated above. But hydrogen has some pretty big ones too, chief among which is the question "where does the hydrogen come from". Hydrogen can be produced industrially from natural gas, but that requires a process that releases more CO2 than hydrogen, and you're still reliant on a finite supply of fossil fuels. So we're likely to end up making it with electricity, but then you have to invest in massive hydrogen production plants, large central storage units, distribution systems, smaller point of sale storage units and delivery systems. All so that you can turn that hydrogen back into electricity inside the fuel cell. From an infrastructure perspective it's much, much easier to just send the electricity through the grid and store it in a battery, which is why that's what has ended up happening. And that's before we get into the efficiency losses in all those systems. I haven't done the numbers, but I'm willing to bet taking some electricity, using it to make hydrogen, transporting that hydrogen hundreds of miles and then using the hydrogen to make electricity again will end up wasting quite a lot of energy. I'm not anti fuel-cell by any means, but these are real problems and I have seen plenty people just say "we can use hydrogen" as if it's a complete answer.
Bio-fuels sound like a great way to keep our V8s and V12s running into the future, and believe me I want that as much as any of you, but again it's not a perfect solution. Growing fuel crops means taking fertile land away from food production, which affects fuel prices. Staple crops have spiked in price recently pushing parts of the developing world to the brink of famine. Any shift towards bio-fuels needs to take such consequences into consideration.
e-fuels might be another potential solution too, but they are in their infancy. Solid state batteries or mega-capacitors might resolve all the issues with battery vehicles, but again it's still early days for that technology. I just hope people can learn to get over the tribalism that appears to have developed here and focus on an objective consideration of the various options, because we'll probably end up with a mix of all of them for different use cases.
Battery EV is not the future just as steam engine was not the future when it replaced horse, as ICE was not the future when it replaced steam engine
Battery technology will evolve a lot over the future just like ICE had evolve in the past. Battery will be here until something better more viable available.
We are human, we never stop evolving, new technology and engineering everyday. We are developing solid state battery making it cheaper and easier to mass produce, we are looking at new battery chemistry like graphene. There also battery swapping technology and induction charging.
I think our current biggest challenges for Hydrogen are storage and producing it, they have the advantageous like quick refilling over battery. Vehicle like lorry, airplane, ship, or even bus could benefit from Hydrogen Fuel Cell.
Bio-fuel, synthetic fuel, we are still combusting them with oxygen and this does not eliminate tailpipe emission. I think it will be hard to see in any city. other than construction or agricultural vehicle if they do not take the Hydrogen FC route
Nothing is forever, battery tech will one day become obsolete so as HFC, god know what future transport will be power by, may be photon propulsion if we do not destroy our planet and the world keep on evolving. But for now, battery just better over ICE for most of our journey as private transportation, and we are adopting to these change until something better to come out
There do seem to be many fanatical people and hypocrites involved with Pro EV; Anti EV; Zero Emissions; Save the Planet. They all think they understand everything about the science involved.
Anyway, please excuse me, I must dash. Need to fill up my diesel SUV, before driving 300 miles to another Stop Oil protest.
I was fined £40 at our last jamboree. Well worth it for the fun we had causing mayhem.
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