Current Jaguar Range

Current Jaguar Range

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Discussion

fatboy b

8,873 posts

177 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
akadk said:
But there’s no market for a V8

There was barely a market for the V6 S

It’s not as simple as stick a V8 in and go up against the RS 4/M3/C63

You need to go the whole hog performance and looks wise and that costs a lot of money and ultimately requires a business case.
Jaguar destroyed their own V8 market by going all Audi-looking with the current XF/XE and not providing proper halo models. Manufacturers in Germany seem to be able to do it.

akadk

855 posts

140 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
Really? Last I checked the RS 4 and M3 were 6 cylinders?!

F-PACE SVR FTW

bad company

Original Poster:

13,497 posts

227 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
akadk said:
Really? Last I checked the RS 4 and M3 were 6 cylinders?!
True but Jaguar don’t seem to have equivalent or competition for either.

akadk

855 posts

140 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
Because there is likely no business case at their projected volumes.

Audi/MB/BMW sell a lot more cars and are far better established in that sector and have a bloodline of cars and access to shared tech/engineering.

bad company

Original Poster:

13,497 posts

227 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
akadk said:
Because there is likely no business case at their projected volumes.

Audi/MB/BMW sell a lot more cars and are far better established in that sector and have a bloodline of cars and access to shared tech/engineering.
I can’t comment on the business case but in the past Jaguar offered ‘R’ versions of models such as XJ & XK etc.

Shame as there’s currently nothing in the current range attractive to me.

Bubba Zanetti

357 posts

108 months

Thursday 14th March 2019
quotequote all
It's frustrating to see them develop the Project 8 - how many are in the market for a £150k XE?

Then you're left scratching your head at whether there is going to be an M3/C63 equivalent of the XE around the £60k mark. Alfa Romeo have done it. Jaguar need to stop with these incredibly expensive niche models.

bad company

Original Poster:

13,497 posts

227 months

Monday 25th March 2019
quotequote all
Bubba Zanetti said:
It's frustrating to see them develop the Project 8 - how many are in the market for a £150k XE?

Then you're left scratching your head at whether there is going to be an M3/C63 equivalent of the XE around the £60k mark. Alfa Romeo have done it. Jaguar need to stop with these incredibly expensive niche models.
Project 8:-

https://drivetribe.com/p/would-you-spend-260000-on...

Who’s going to buy it?

8bit

3,071 posts

116 months

Tuesday 26th March 2019
quotequote all
bad company said:
Project 8:-

https://drivetribe.com/p/would-you-spend-260000-on...

Who’s going to buy it?
Why don't you ask this guy - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

EDIT - in fact there are at least three owners in this thread already - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

In fact, aren't they all sold already?

Edited by 8bit on Tuesday 26th March 13:56

Bubba Zanetti

357 posts

108 months

Tuesday 26th March 2019
quotequote all
They might all be sold but a limited run of 300 cars worldwide isn't going to keep the factory busy for long.

Bravo to them but seriously gives us an M3/RS4/C63 rival.

bad company

Original Poster:

13,497 posts

227 months

Tuesday 26th March 2019
quotequote all
Bubba Zanetti said:
They might all be sold but a limited run of 300 cars worldwide isn't going to keep the factory busy for long.

Bravo to them but seriously gives us an M3/RS4/C63 rival.
Worldwide run of 300 compared to 34,677 for the F80 M3:-

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t...


8bit

3,071 posts

116 months

Wednesday 27th March 2019
quotequote all
That's not an apples for apples comparison tho, is it? The M3 is a production model, not a limited edition halo car - that would be the M3 CS which was limited to 1200 units globally.

BMW, Audi and Mercedes can afford to do the seriously hot versions of their cars because they have economies of scale on their side; they're not quite loss leaders but they can afford to produce them because it builds aspiration to their brands - many cannot afford to have an RS4, for example, but they can have an A4 S-line so they get that instead. Jaguar don't sell regular cars in sufficient numbers (yet) to be able to have that.

bad company

Original Poster:

13,497 posts

227 months

Wednesday 27th March 2019
quotequote all
8bit said:
BMW, Audi and Mercedes can afford to do the seriously hot versions of their cars because they have economies of scale on their side; they're not quite loss leaders but they can afford to produce them because it builds aspiration to their brands - many cannot afford to have an RS4, for example, but they can have an A4 S-line so they get that instead. Jaguar don't sell regular cars in sufficient numbers (yet) to be able to have that.
I’d say that if Jaguar built some of the aspirational cars you describe it’d help sell some of the lesser models. As it is there’s nothing seriously hot in the Jaguar saloons.

8bit

3,071 posts

116 months

Wednesday 27th March 2019
quotequote all
bad company said:
I’d say that if Jaguar built some of the aspirational cars you describe it’d help sell some of the lesser models. As it is there’s nothing seriously hot in the Jaguar saloons.
Because the market for them is relatively tiny and they don't have the economies of scale that the big firms do. Developing these things costs a lot of money, when you're selling boat loads of the boggo 2.0 diesel versions as well then you can absorb in that cost, if not then the hot models have to turn a profit. The only way to do that at Jaguar's sort of scale is to sell them for a worthwhile profit which then prices them way above the competition.

This was your thread originally, right? How hot is "seriously hot" in your view? What exactly are you looking to replace right now? If we've established that there is nothing in Jaguar's line up to your liking then how about an Alfa Guilia QF? Some sort of V8 Lexus saloon perhaps, assuming you're not looking for a/another German car...

bad company

Original Poster:

13,497 posts

227 months

Wednesday 27th March 2019
quotequote all
8bit said:
This was your thread originally, right? How hot is "seriously hot" in your view? What exactly are you looking to replace right now? If we've established that there is nothing in Jaguar's line up to your liking then how about an Alfa Guilia QF? Some sort of V8 Lexus saloon perhaps, assuming you're not looking for a/another German car...
My every day driver is a 2017 BMW 540 x-drive. I’d consider one of the ‘M’ BMW’s but I like to have a tow bar for my bike rack and anyway the 540 is seriously quick.

When I change next year I’ll be looking at the Alfa though I haven’t driven one yet. I can’t even consider a Lexus as to me they commit the unforgivable sin of being ugly as st. hurl

I’ll also be looking at the new 3/4 series BMW’s, shame that Jaguar still has nothing to offer which is why I started the thread really.

300bhp/ton

39,302 posts

151 months

Wednesday 27th March 2019
quotequote all
8bit said:
Because the market for them is relatively tiny and they don't have the economies of scale that the big firms do. Developing these things costs a lot of money, when you're selling boat loads of the boggo 2.0 diesel versions as well then you can absorb in that cost, if not then the hot models have to turn a profit. The only way to do that at Jaguar's sort of scale is to sell them for a worthwhile profit which then prices them way above the competition.

This was your thread originally, right? How hot is "seriously hot" in your view? What exactly are you looking to replace right now? If we've established that there is nothing in Jaguar's line up to your liking then how about an Alfa Guilia QF? Some sort of V8 Lexus saloon perhaps, assuming you're not looking for a/another German car...
I’m not sure it is economics of scale. Producing a “hot” version of the same car costs peanuts really. And as yo pointed out, such cars help sell cars lower in the range anyway.

8bit

3,071 posts

116 months

Thursday 28th March 2019
quotequote all
bad company said:
My every day driver is a 2017 BMW 540 x-drive. I’d consider one of the ‘M’ BMW’s but I like to have a tow bar for my bike rack and anyway the 540 is seriously quick.

When I change next year I’ll be looking at the Alfa though I haven’t driven one yet. I can’t even consider a Lexus as to me they commit the unforgivable sin of being ugly as st. hurl

I’ll also be looking at the new 3/4 series BMW’s, shame that Jaguar still has nothing to offer which is why I started the thread really.
OK, how fast do you want/need it to be? The XF with the 300PS petrol motor is about as quick as it gets, otherwise yes you're into looking at other marques or a used XFR or similar.

Lexus, yes they're a bit marmite as they say - I like some of them but appreciate they're not a universal people pleaser.

300bhp/ton said:
I’m not sure it is economics of scale. Producing a “hot” version of the same car costs peanuts really. And as yo pointed out, such cars help sell cars lower in the range anyway.
How do you figure it costs "peanuts"? Perhaps yes, if you are Audi, you have a wide range of models with reuse of parts wherever possible and your cost per unit is low and your margins are high. Jaguar simply do not manufacture on anywhere near that scale so they're margins will be slimmer, meaning that they don't have the luxury of low margin, low volume halo models. I'm sure if they were justifiable then Jaguar would still be making them.

mrbarnett

585 posts

54 months

Thursday 28th March 2019
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
8bit said:
Because the market for them is relatively tiny and they don't have the economies of scale that the big firms do. Developing these things costs a lot of money, when you're selling boat loads of the boggo 2.0 diesel versions as well then you can absorb in that cost, if not then the hot models have to turn a profit. The only way to do that at Jaguar's sort of scale is to sell them for a worthwhile profit which then prices them way above the competition.

This was your thread originally, right? How hot is "seriously hot" in your view? What exactly are you looking to replace right now? If we've established that there is nothing in Jaguar's line up to your liking then how about an Alfa Guilia QF? Some sort of V8 Lexus saloon perhaps, assuming you're not looking for a/another German car...
I’m not sure it is economics of scale. Producing a “hot” version of the same car costs peanuts really. And as yo pointed out, such cars help sell cars lower in the range anyway.
I agree. MG Rover managed to convert the ZT to RWD and fit a longitudinal V8 under the bonnet with barely any cash to play with. They also wanted to replace the desperately dated 45 but barely got past the design stage due to the enormous upfront costs.

All new model = expensive
Hot version of existing model = peanuts

JLR have gone through the expense of developing a totally new 6 cylinder engine; they'd be mad not to now slot it into any engine bay that will take it.

8bit

3,071 posts

116 months

Thursday 28th March 2019
quotequote all
mrbarnett said:
I agree. MG Rover managed to convert the ZT to RWD and fit a longitudinal V8 under the bonnet with barely any cash to play with. They also wanted to replace the desperately dated 45 but barely got past the design stage due to the enormous upfront costs.

All new model = expensive
Hot version of existing model = peanuts

JLR have gone through the expense of developing a totally new 6 cylinder engine; they'd be mad not to now slot it into any engine bay that will take it.
Again that's not really apples for apples though is it? Cars back then were far simpler things, requiring far less by way of regulatory compliance, crash structures etc.

In any case, as per my previous answer, I'm sure if JLR felt it was worth their while making properly hot versions of the Jaguar saloons then we'd by buying them, not arguing over why there aren't any.

bad company

Original Poster:

13,497 posts

227 months

Thursday 28th March 2019
quotequote all
8bit said:
Again that's not really apples for apples though is it? Cars back then were far simpler things, requiring far less by way of regulatory compliance, crash structures etc.

In any case, as per my previous answer, I'm sure if JLR felt it was worth their while making properly hot versions of the Jaguar saloons then we'd by buying them, not arguing over why there aren't any.
JLR now appear to be sat on their laurels while not selling nearly enough cars. They need to come up with something.

8bit

3,071 posts

116 months

Friday 29th March 2019
quotequote all
bad company said:
JLR now appear to be sat on their laurels while not selling nearly enough cars. They need to come up with something.
They never intended to shift the sorts of volumes that the Germans do. I'm not sure they're exactly doing badly, see loads of them around here nowadays.