Grief Update - Engine Rebuild

Grief Update - Engine Rebuild

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Matthew Poxon

Original Poster:

5,283 posts

137 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
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QBee said:
I know the Griff has an extra small dial compared to the Chim - is it an oil temperature gauge?

I too have track day temperature concerns.
Mat Smith spent some time improving the airflow through my radiator, and on Friday's track day, when I was on the throttle for the bulk of every lap, my water temperature stayed sensible.

However, my newly fitted oil temperature gauge was suggesting I fit a bigger oil cooler.

Now, as you know, I have a turbo fitted to my 4.6.
But Mat Smith's race car is a 4.8, normally aspirated, and was showing similar water temperatures to my car (85-90 degrees) and similar oil temperatures (115 degrees).

So if you are considering track days with your new engine, may I suggest you discuss water cooling and oil cooling now - so much easier to incorporate from the start. My current oil cooler clearly isn't big enough.
Hi Anthony,

The Griff does have an extra dial but that dial is a voltmeter on a standard car. I have changed swapped my voltmeter for an oil temperature gauge but I was never sure whether the readings were correct. At Rockingham it was reading off the scale at over 150 degrees so I assume there is an issue somewhere.



The gauge that Peter has is excellent as it is digital and lights up red when there is an issue so i might run one of those during the shakedown period and then swap back to the analogue dial once I am happy the temps are under control.

I have a TVR Laminova (fitted to the T cars) which I am planning to fit - idea stolen from Peter B. I am not sure whether it will be sufficient but I intend to keep a close eye on it.

Matthew Poxon

Original Poster:

5,283 posts

137 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
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TV8 said:
It’s a V8 development engine and compared with my 400 it puts out a lot of heat that wafts around the car in slow traffic. That might be what you are used to with your 500 but it came as a surprise for me!

As well as useful, I think he found the blog expensive biggrin
I think I might be used to that already. I remember when I first got the car I went out for a run with a friend, pulled up next to him to have a chat, the fans kicked in on my engine and we could barely see each other through the heat haze.

LOL - speaking to other owners is always very expensive. A trip to the Griff Growl a few years back ended up costing me £££ after Peter kindly took me out in his Griff with the Clive manifolds.

Matthew Poxon

Original Poster:

5,283 posts

137 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
quotequote all
petepetrolhead said:
Awesome engine spec Mr P bowbowbow

ITBs - way to go! I'd do the same if I was doing mine now but I've spent too much on getting the twin plenum working right eek

Got to agree about the need for fresh air breathing though - anyway it would look epic with some nice shiny trumpets! How about this approach:

Thank you sir, hopefully it will work out.

Your twin plenum looks great, there something very cool about the old-skool tunning parts and you don't get much cooler than the SD1 twin. Of course yours has been brought bang up to date with the drive by wire much makes it even more special.

I certainly have a bit of scope with this project once it is complete. I may look at DBW in the future and I do really like the look of that airbox.

Matthew Poxon

Original Poster:

5,283 posts

137 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
quotequote all
Classic Chim said:
Fitting a race spec fire protection system might be a wise choice. They are very subtle other than the size of the bottle.
I like the enclosed idea with visible trumpets, early F1 kind of vibe.

The simple idea is to do a chilliwizz straight air filter arrangement directly in line with incoming air to ram it, split the air intake into two smaller pipes ( promoting flow rate ) and then shape them so they are directed towards the air filters possibly going from front of engine feeding air back up and over the filters towards the back, as Matt says the rear pots can draw fresh air from the windscreen mesh.
What that would do for engine management is another thing as its unmetered air?
Might actually add to the fire risk too yikes
Best talk to the experts Matt biglaugh
I did see a Griff with a fire suppression system fitted a long time ago now. I will see if I can dig out the pictures.

I am probably going to leave the filters as the are for the minute, get the car back on the road and see what issues I have and draw up a plan to resolve. I do like the idea of an airbox but I am also keen to get the car back on the road. I think it would also be interesting to see before and after dyno runs with and without airbox to see what difference it makes.

I believe the car will be mapped on throttle angle as like you say the air is unmetered.

Matthew Poxon

Original Poster:

5,283 posts

137 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
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This is the crankshaft which I bought from a fellow TVR owner a while back. Doug Kiddie 91.5mm large journal crank.



Jody has taken the engine out



The block is with Dom and he has started working his magic. Bored out and ready for the top hat liners to be fitted.




phazed

19,542 posts

168 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
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Ah, memories, not all good! laugh

lancelin

201 posts

85 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
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Good stuff, What are your thoughts on low rpm driving? Will throttle bodies improve this compared to our plenum design? The cam choice might also impact this Perhaps its not important for Track days etc.

I'm getting close to rebuilding my engine, I have the dreaded rattle on the overrun which sounds like a characteristic of the 500 engine. Some do it and some don't.

Matthew Poxon

Original Poster:

5,283 posts

137 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
quotequote all
lancelin said:
Good stuff, What are your thoughts on low rpm driving? Will throttle bodies improve this compared to our plenum design? The cam choice might also impact this Perhaps its not important for Track days etc.

I'm getting close to rebuilding my engine, I have the dreaded rattle on the overrun which sounds like a characteristic of the 500 engine. Some do it and some don't.
Hi Owen,

My advice based solely on my own experiences would be for anyone with a 500 who wants a more powerful car sorted in terms of drivability and the peace of mind of a 5 year warranty just go for a TVR Power Taraka build with an MBE ECU. As a package for a road car I don't think you can beat it and you have one single supplier to deal with. You really don't need any more power unless you are on track.

As you have probably guessed by now I am a bit of a nut case and want to do something a bit different. What I am trying to achieve from mine is the same low down shove in the back torque wise you get from a standard 500 but with an extended rev range with more top end BHP. The higher lift cam will give more BHP higher up the rev range but will compromise by losing low end torque, I am hoping the capacity increase from 5.0 to 5.3 will help bring some of that back. The throttle bodies are going to be a massive pain in the arse for not much gain I suspect, we need to think of solutions for brake servo vaccum, and the heater as these both use the plenum. As Alun mentioned there is no method of metering the air going in as there is no airbox and there is a throttle body per cylinder to balance. I still want them though!

900T-R

20,362 posts

221 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
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I'd say the 5.3 is overkill as the torque of a std 500 is already a bit too lairy for the car at times and you'll be gaining back the low/midrange that you lost with going for a naughty(ish) cam on a plenum anyway because of the ITBs. A 4.8 (ish) based on a late 4.6 block and 96 mm pistons would be a more rugged and driveable platform from although I appreciate it's a smaller number than what you have right now. winksmile

QBee

18,076 posts

108 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
quotequote all
Matthew Poxon said:
Hi Anthony,

The Griff does have an extra dial but that dial is a voltmeter on a standard car. I have changed swapped my voltmeter for an oil temperature gauge but I was never sure whether the readings were correct. At Rockingham it was reading off the scale at over 150 degrees so I assume there is an issue somewhere.

"Duckin' hell" (as my wife likes to text), I bloody hope the gauge is reading wrong.
Might explain why your engine needed refreshing if it isn't.....

I am presently tossing up on just getting an oil cooler the size of a Rolls Royce's radiator fitted, or buying a Spa gauge first and getting some trustworthy temperature readings.
My Caerbont gauge was reading 115 -120 degrees on low boost (same as Mat Smith's 4.8 being driven like he meant it), but hit 130 degrees when I upped the wick on the turbo for 2 laps, at which point I turned it back down again sharpish.

phazed

19,542 posts

168 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
quotequote all
Heat is the enemy on these cars.

I hit 111 in the morning, (even with a huge FO oil cooler fitted) but never achieved more than 107 in the pm even staying out far longer.

Maybe less traffic and more airflow.

Readings taken on a very accurate Spa gauge.

Mathew, heat will kill your engine if not kept in check.

I would fit the Spa gauge permanently, they blend in quite well.

Matthew Poxon

Original Poster:

5,283 posts

137 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
quotequote all
900T-R said:
I'd say the 5.3 is overkill as the torque of a std 500 is already a bit too lairy for the car at times and you'll be gaining back the low/midrange that you lost with going for a naughty(ish) cam on a plenum anyway because of the ITBs. A 4.8 (ish) based on a late 4.6 block and 96 mm pistons would be a more rugged and driveable platform from although I appreciate it's a smaller number than what you have right now. winksmile
Hi Eric,

I do agree with you on the 500 being a bit lairy. As a road car I have always thought the 4.3BV or ultra rare 4.5BV engines offer the best driving experience. I find you can keep you foot in for longer and allow you to the rev range much better. Using full throttle on a bumpy road in a 500 is like playing Russian roulette!

I will be interested to see the results on Dom's dyno. I have had my car dyno'd there before a number of time in the past so regardless of figures I will have a direct comparison.

My ITBs have very short runners so I was guessing that I would loose torque with the naughty(ish) cam, hence the 5.3 to bring it back. As much as the torque is a bit dangerous with the poor chassis it is quite amusing when you take people out for a ride, the torque makes the car feel much quicker than what it actually is.

I completely agree with you on the 4.8. Bore a standard 4.6 out to 96mm, new forged pistons and you have a moderately sensibly priced very competent motor with lots of character, an engine that would out perform a TVR500 engine every day of the week. Like you say, is it less than what the care should have in terms of capacity and that is not OK laughlaughlaugh

The other engine which makes a lot a sense is the formidable 4.6T in Anthony's (Qbee) car. Standard 4.6 engine with a turbo. Massively more performance than what I am building, much better MPG and if you can find a good condition used 4.6, a fraction of the build price.

Matthew Poxon

Original Poster:

5,283 posts

137 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
quotequote all
QBee said:
"Duckin' hell" (as my wife likes to text), I bloody hope the gauge is reading wrong.
Might explain why your engine needed refreshing if it isn't.....
biglaugh Ducking hell


Matthew Poxon

Original Poster:

5,283 posts

137 months

Wednesday 29th May 2019
quotequote all
phazed said:
Heat is the enemy on these cars.

I hit 111 in the morning, (even with a huge FO oil cooler fitted) but never achieved more than 107 in the pm even staying out far longer.

Maybe less traffic and more airflow.

Readings taken on a very accurate Spa gauge.

Mathew, heat will kill your engine if not kept in check.

I would fit the Spa gauge permanently, they blend in quite well.
Thanks Peter - I fully intend on watching the temps on the engine like a hawk. I can only afford to do this once so I want to protect my investment.

I am impressed by your Spa gauge. I had a feeling you must have a Ducking great oil cooler as the temps on your cool down lap dropped really quickly.

It has been good fun watching you modify your car over time. In recent years it really is an impressive track weapon and you can stay out a fair bit of time without getting too hot..... and by all accounts still a great road car.

stevesprint

1,059 posts

143 months

Thursday 30th May 2019
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Matthew, Sir Matthew

Very impressive build, especially those Omega light weight forged pistons with partial skirts, I assume they have floating Gudgeon pins.

Also, those new Jenvey downdraft ITBs and manifolds should improve power, drivability & throttle response, BMW have been using ITBs on M cars since the 80’s for those reasons.

These TVR ITBs are a work of art and should be in a museum, does anyone know anything about them? Interesting they have coil packs and a very old 14CU throttle pot.





I’m glad you finally got a pair of TVR cast rocker covers which you’ll need with roller rockers, interestingly I still had to use two cork gaskets to clear Yella Terras. If you’re using Yella Terras and outrigger supports you may have to widen the outrigger’s gap to accommodate Yella Terras, or are you going for JE’s roller rockers as Yella Terra’s seem to be in short supply.

6,500rpm PEAK power for a hydraulic cam is very high, I’d be interested to see the spec of the H324 cam. I guess you’ve gone for it because your ITBs and modern ECU will tam the cam for the road.

What Compression ratio are you aiming for, again with ITBs and modern ECUs could you can go higher than 10:1 and retain driveability? Be interesting to hear others views on compression ratio.

Sir Matt
Respect bowclap, I expected nothing less from your high standards and sorry for the questions and if the TVR ITB are a little off topic.

Edited by stevesprint on Thursday 30th May 10:53

Matthew Poxon

Original Poster:

5,283 posts

137 months

Thursday 30th May 2019
quotequote all
stevesprint said:
Matthew, Sir Matthew

Very impressive build, especially those Omega light weight forged pistons with partial skirts, I assume they have floating Gudgeon pins.

Also, those new Jenvey downdraft ITBs and manifolds should improve power, drivability & throttle response, BMW have been using ITBs on M cars since the 80’s for those reasons.

These TVR ITBs are a work of art and should be in a museum, does anyone know anything about them? Interesting they have coil packs and a very old 14CU throttle pot.





I’m glad you finally got a pair of TVR cast rocker covers which you’ll need with roller rockers, interestingly I still had to use two cork gaskets to clear Yella Terras. If you’re using Yella Terras and outrigger supports you may have to widen the outrigger’s gap to accommodate Yella Terras, or are you going for JE’s roller rockers as Yella Terra’s seem to be in short supply.

6,500rpm PEAK power for a hydraulic cam is very high, I’d be interested to see the spec of the H324 cam. I guess you’ve gone for it because your ITBs and modern ECU will tam the cam for the road.

What Compression ratio are you aiming for, again with ITBs and modern ECUs could you can go higher than 10:1 and retain driveability? Be interesting to hear others views on compression ratio.

Sir Matt
Respect bowclap, I expected nothing less from your high standards and sorry for the questions and if the TVR ITB are a little off topic.
Hey Steve, I hope you are well sir and thank you very much for you kind comments and support.

If it sounds half as good as your engine I will be very happy.

I love the TVR ITBs, very interesting indeed and thank you for sharing. Do you have any history on those?

Interesting you mention the roller rockers, I had a nightmare getting hold of a set. I tried all the usual suppliers and none had any in stock. I had to order directly from Australia in the end. I also have the JE billet shafts and end posts. JE does not sell roller rockers, he sells his own Group A steel rocker gear.





My mistake on the cam it is an H234 not a H324. Cam specs below:



I am hoping the combination of the MBE ECU and the ITBs will tame the cam so I am left with a drivable car at low revs and a bit of an animal at high revs.

I have left Dom to decide the compression ratio I was looking around 11.5:1 to 12.5:1 but I will let Dom decide as I don't really understand what affect this will have with the components I have chosen.

mk1fan

9,894 posts

189 months

Thursday 30th May 2019
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Matthew Poxon said:
Thanks Stewart laughlaughlaugh
I'm here to help biglaugh

RichB

44,861 posts

248 months

Thursday 30th May 2019
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Matthew Poxon said:
RichB said:
Will you need to duct cold air to the intake filters?
Hello Richard, how are you? How are your stunning Aston and Griff doing?

I am hoping that the combination of the mesh under the windscreen and the vented bonnet I have fitted will be sufficient without the need for additional ducting.
This build looks excellent Matthew, the vented bonnet lid will be there for a reason not just appearance! WIll look forward to seeing your carour engines some time. smile
My Aston and Griff are going well thanks, although I've been spending a bit of time recently playing with my latest toy, a 1933 Lagonda. As someone who embarked on a power improvement plan back nearly 20 years ago, I am in awe of the kit available for our engines these days. Good job it was not around back then else I could have got deeply in debt! What sort of bhp will you be looking for? hehe

Matthew Poxon

Original Poster:

5,283 posts

137 months

Thursday 30th May 2019
quotequote all
RichB said:
This build looks excellent Matthew, the vented bonnet lid will be there for a reason not just appearance! WIll look forward to seeing your carour engines some time. smile
My Aston and Griff are going well thanks, although I've been spending a bit of time recently playing with my latest toy, a 1933 Lagonda. As someone who embarked on a power improvement plan back nearly 20 years ago, I am in awe of the kit available for our engines these days. Good job it was not around back then else I could have got deeply in debt! What sort of bhp will you be looking for? hehe
Oh very nice indeed, have you got a picture of you new toy?

Yes I remember reading about the improvements you completed on Grizzly, they were very much the inspiration for my car is it stands now. I seem to recall you were one of the first owners who had the ACT twin plenum. I remember reading you website which was again early inspiration for my blog so thank you for that.

Yes unfortunately there are indeed much more expensive options now eek I am feeling the financial pain already and it hasn't really got going yet laugh

I have learnt over the years that naturally aspirated RV8 tuning is very expensive and once you are over 300BHP you are very much into diminishing returns. I am hoping for 330BHP & 340ftlb (measured at the wheels) anything more will be a bonus.

This is what the car produced on the TVR Power Dyno on it last run:



TVR Power dyno reads in wheel BHP so converted to flywheel using the below site (I am not sure how accurate this is)
http://www.mk5cortinaestate.co.uk/calculator4.php

BHP – 324BHP
Torque – 348ftlb

phazed

19,542 posts

168 months

Thursday 30th May 2019
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Which is very good for the 5 L.

I think Anthony, (Precat) griff is similar figures with a twin plenum .