4.5 Chimp or Griff 500 for first TVR ?
Discussion
Er,getting back on topic.
When looking for my current Tiv I wanted either Griff or Chim 500 and test drove both (after also trying 4.0 Chim and BMW M Coupe!).
Any 500 will provide phenominal performance (not tried 450 but am sure they dont hang about either)but I chose the Chim500 because at the time - last year - Griffs seemed to be around £3k more
for 98 models.
My advice,set a price limit,find Griff around that money then see what year/mileage/spec Chim500 can be bought at that price.
Or do what i did,
save two or three grand by buying the Chim then proceed
to blow it on goodies for the bloody thing anyway!
Griff?,Chim?,450?,500? its a nice choice to have to make so have fun choosing!
When looking for my current Tiv I wanted either Griff or Chim 500 and test drove both (after also trying 4.0 Chim and BMW M Coupe!).
Any 500 will provide phenominal performance (not tried 450 but am sure they dont hang about either)but I chose the Chim500 because at the time - last year - Griffs seemed to be around £3k more
for 98 models.
My advice,set a price limit,find Griff around that money then see what year/mileage/spec Chim500 can be bought at that price.
Or do what i did,
save two or three grand by buying the Chim then proceed
to blow it on goodies for the bloody thing anyway!
Griff?,Chim?,450?,500? its a nice choice to have to make so have fun choosing!
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Steve, obviously I bow to your vastly superior technical knowledge.
Looks like my dealer has been telling porkies in that case. When I bought mine 6 months ago they had a Chim and a Griff Ltd 100 parked next to each other and the fella said its all down to looks, its EXACTLY the same car underneath.
I wouldn't say he has been telling porkies it is just that I never assume anything. I have driven a Griff and Chimaera that were supposed to have the exactly the same suspension but they handled differently. If I loose the front spoiler on the 520, it too handles differently so the role of aerodynamics should not be underestimated. It starts to understeer like crazy!
I have seen the spring and shock changes for the cars and it is so varied you can't tell which is which. I have no doubt that some cars tested back to back would handle similarly but there is a big variation.
Steve
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Both are capable of putting you into a hedge backwards but this is usually due to most drivers not understanding how to drive these cars. Common faults are engine braking (a definite no no but so many people do it!).... Whatever you choose, get some driving instruction, especially if this is your first TVR.... Steve
So the HPC course would be no good for TVR drivers then? Based on the 3 page article on Driving Techniques in this months EVO. John Lyon the guy who runs the course states that drivers will be ecouraged to use the brake as little as possible, keeping the engine 'singing' by using engine braking to its full potential! Rich...
If he really is advocating this, this is in complete opposition to all the race drivers and instructors who know and understand TVRs. Engine braking and especially using the gears to apply it is a big big no no and causes a lot of accidents.
One, brake pads are cheaper to replace than clutches and secondly, the TVR has so much engine torque the chances are the rear wheels will lock up and you will end up doing a handbrake turn faster than you can say TV Rghhhhhhhhh.
If you don't have much engine torque and you can afford to replace clutches then it is an appropriate technique and one that many were taught in the good old days when brakes were very very iffy.
However it is possible that John is talking about heel and toe techniques to keep the enginerevs matched and using the right gear so that the engine does run sweetly (and with a turbo car doesn't come on boost in mid corner when you don't expect it).
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
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...the TVR has so much engine torque the chances are the rear wheels will lock up and you will end up doing a handbrake turn faster than you can say TV Rghhhhhhhhh.
Can't comment Steve as I only read what the jornalist wrote, so perhaps he misinterpreted John's ideas? However, lets explore your comment about handbrake turns a little, surly this would only occur if you were applying some turn to the steering at the same time as changing down through the box? I would have thought the idea is to get gear changing and braking done before the turn and then drive through, and accelerate out of, the turn? Rich...
On the 4.5 CHIMP OR GRIFF 500 topic I was in this position a year ago. They are of course both fantatsic cars but it is difficult to compare them looks wise as they appeal in different ways. The Griff looks very aggressive whilst the Chim just looks thoroughly sexy. As already stated, there seems to be a couple of grand between Griffs and Chims of the same age. Although I love both models, what swung it for me was finding the right TVR with FSH, right colour combo and generally a cherished car. I now have a Paradise Purple 1998 S plate Chim 450 which is perfect! It is exactly what I wanted and more. Perfromance wise, being a twenty-something year old no one is forth coming with test drives in 5.0 litres or Cerbs so I am blissfully happy with all the power I have, being MORE than enough 99% of time!
Hope this helps and you will love whatever you get, I promise!
Chris
Hope this helps and you will love whatever you get, I promise!
Chris
Re Evo and the HPC article. Mention was made of heel & toeing, so I presume, engine braking was mentioned in that context, which doesn't strike me (edit) quite as bad.
I have noticed in normal driving that a degree of engine braking is hard to avoid... I find my self lifting off to brake gently only to find that by the time my foot is over the brake pedal the engine braking has already done the job for me. As a result, I occasionally left foot brake (ever so gently) just to get the brake lights on for the benefit of the guy behind.
Engine braking while changing down *without* heel & toeing is a different matter however.
>> Edited by Marshy on Tuesday 12th March 13:59
I have noticed in normal driving that a degree of engine braking is hard to avoid... I find my self lifting off to brake gently only to find that by the time my foot is over the brake pedal the engine braking has already done the job for me. As a result, I occasionally left foot brake (ever so gently) just to get the brake lights on for the benefit of the guy behind.
Engine braking while changing down *without* heel & toeing is a different matter however.
>> Edited by Marshy on Tuesday 12th March 13:59
OK... on the subject of 'heel and toeing' he also says this is to be done when going up the gears as well as down. So my question is, why would you heel & toe going up the box? The reason to heel & toe is to match the revs to the speed as you change down a gear e.g. increase the revs as you pass through neutural whilst changing gear and braking. However, going up the box the revs required will always be lower for the next gear not higher so why on earth would you heel & toe? Other than to make a nice blippy noise to impress the audience! Rich...
>> Edited by richb on Tuesday 12th March 13:17
>> Edited by richb on Tuesday 12th March 13:17
Surely the problem with engine breaking is that the differential means that one wheel at the back is being slowed harder than the other and this imbalance will tend to spin the car. If the left rear wheel is taking the breaking torque, then the car will tend to spin anti-clockwise and vice versa.
When you engine brake, you are relying on the rotational speed difference between the engine side of the clutch and the transmission side of the clutch. This means that all the braking force is transmitted through the gearbox, differential, CV joints and so on which it is not designed to do. If the engine was redlining before the engine braking and was now just above idle then the difference is speed is around 4-5000 rpm. Engaging the clutch is going to definitely engine brake in that the engine will try very quickly to reduce the wheel speed down so they match. It is like revving the engine to 4-5000 rpm and dumping the clutch. You would not do it because of mechanical sympathy for the car so why do it when engine braking. TVR’s have so much torque that the engine can effectively stop the wheel rotation in an instant and this means the wheels lock up and they can lock up so quickly that there is no real escape.
Engine braking is under way. The only retardation is through the rear wheels. Unfortunately the braking will cause the car’s weight to move forward and increase the weight over the front wheels which normally increases the grip and allows more braking. This also means that weight is removed from the rear wheels which reduces the grip. However, it is the rear wheels that are providing the braking so their effectiveness i.e. the amount of braking that can be applied before a wheel will lock up is reduced. There is also a diff in the transmission which can effectively provide some control over the power distribution between the rear wheels. This can also start affecting the braking ability. The long and the short of it is that engine braking effectively is like playing Russian Roulette in that you have little control over what is going on and as there is more braking, the weight transfer causes the grip to reduce and increases the likelihood that one or both of the wheels will lock up. If it happens what are you going to do? If a front locks you can come off the brakes and then reapply. With engine braking this is not an option. Do you apply the accelerator to reduce the mismatch and start moving faster towards the point you are trying to slow down for? Hmmm as they say. It usually doesn’t get to this as the locked wheel causes an imbalance in the braking and the car will violently veer to one side or another. In the wet, this can be suicidal as the wet conditions can further reduce the grip and raise the odds that a wheel will lock up and increase the speed in which the car moves.
Then there is also the other problem of car balance. Take Mallory’s hairpin. A lot of the guys I was assessing last Tuesday would approach this in fourth, change into third and engine brake, change into second and engine brake and then brake and then scrabble round the corner because each time they engine braked the car would tip forward and then backward when the clutch was depressed for the next change. This feels really fast as you rock inside the car but it also means you have to wait for the car to balance out before you can turn in. End result is that many did not have the time to get the car balanced and round the corner. So you have a car that is not balanced, and likely to lock up a rear wheel at any time. This is not really a car under control.
If you use the brakes, the weight transfers to the front where the bulk of the braking is done so that helps. There is a lot of time to slip out of fourth gear to second and the car is not rocking all over the place. There is still the risk of a lock up when the clutch is engaged if the revs are not matched and this why heel and toe changes are essential to prevent this. The long and the short of all this is that use the brakes for braking ‘cos that is what they were designed for. Use the clutch to change gear and the engine/throttle to accelerate.
Steve
Engine braking is under way. The only retardation is through the rear wheels. Unfortunately the braking will cause the car’s weight to move forward and increase the weight over the front wheels which normally increases the grip and allows more braking. This also means that weight is removed from the rear wheels which reduces the grip. However, it is the rear wheels that are providing the braking so their effectiveness i.e. the amount of braking that can be applied before a wheel will lock up is reduced. There is also a diff in the transmission which can effectively provide some control over the power distribution between the rear wheels. This can also start affecting the braking ability. The long and the short of it is that engine braking effectively is like playing Russian Roulette in that you have little control over what is going on and as there is more braking, the weight transfer causes the grip to reduce and increases the likelihood that one or both of the wheels will lock up. If it happens what are you going to do? If a front locks you can come off the brakes and then reapply. With engine braking this is not an option. Do you apply the accelerator to reduce the mismatch and start moving faster towards the point you are trying to slow down for? Hmmm as they say. It usually doesn’t get to this as the locked wheel causes an imbalance in the braking and the car will violently veer to one side or another. In the wet, this can be suicidal as the wet conditions can further reduce the grip and raise the odds that a wheel will lock up and increase the speed in which the car moves.
Then there is also the other problem of car balance. Take Mallory’s hairpin. A lot of the guys I was assessing last Tuesday would approach this in fourth, change into third and engine brake, change into second and engine brake and then brake and then scrabble round the corner because each time they engine braked the car would tip forward and then backward when the clutch was depressed for the next change. This feels really fast as you rock inside the car but it also means you have to wait for the car to balance out before you can turn in. End result is that many did not have the time to get the car balanced and round the corner. So you have a car that is not balanced, and likely to lock up a rear wheel at any time. This is not really a car under control.
If you use the brakes, the weight transfers to the front where the bulk of the braking is done so that helps. There is a lot of time to slip out of fourth gear to second and the car is not rocking all over the place. There is still the risk of a lock up when the clutch is engaged if the revs are not matched and this why heel and toe changes are essential to prevent this. The long and the short of all this is that use the brakes for braking ‘cos that is what they were designed for. Use the clutch to change gear and the engine/throttle to accelerate.
Steve
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OK... on the subject of 'heel and toeing' he also says this is to be done when going up the gears as well as down. So my question is, why would you heel & toe going up the box?
I quite frequently dab the throttle on the way up the box. I quite often find that if I'm not rushing the gearbox/clutch, the revs drop below where I need them for the next gear. Ergo, blip.
I have a 500, which as I recall, has a lightened flywheel, so perhaps this accounts for my need to do it? (That and the sports exhaust
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I quite often find that if I'm not rushing the gearbox/clutch, the revs drop below where I need them for the next gear. Ergo, blip.
Good point, I never thought of that.
In fact thinking back (25 years!) a mate and I used to see who could do the smoothest clutchless gear changes by matching the revs, now you say it, you did need to keep the revs on the way up as well as down. There you are questioned answered ta. Rich...
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OK... on the subject of 'heel and toeing' he also says this is to be done when going up the gears as well as down. So my question is, why would you heel & toe going up the box?
I've been having this discussion with a knowledgable friend of mine. He sent me a link which advocates double declutching going both up and down the box. Going up, you don't blip the throttle, just let the clutch out in neutral and then change gear.
I've tried it on the way up and it does make the changes smoother but then so does changing gear slower. I THINK is is the shaft from the clutch to the gears (lets call it the widget shaft) that you are slowing down. The prop shaft and wheels are at roughtly the same speed and the engine has dropped slightly anyway but when you put the clutch in at say 5000rpm in 3rd, the widget shaft and it's connected cogs is still spinning at 5000rpm (not much encouragement for it to slow down as it is probably fairly light).
If you then change from one gear to another, you are trying to engage the dog teeth (insert suitable techie term) for a different gear which is spinning at lower revs and hence the syncromesh is put under strain to drop the speed of the widget shaft. If you double declutch, when you declutch in neutral, the widget shaft (now not connected to anything) is brought down to the speed of the engine (say 3000rpm) and hence when you engage the next gear, is is not so much strain.
This is probably complete rubbish so if someone knowlegable would like to correct me...
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OK... on the subject of 'heel and toeing' he also says this is to be done when going up the gears as well as down. So my question is, why would you heel & toe going up the box?
I've been having this discussion with a knowledgable friend of mine. He sent me a link which advocates double declutching going both up and down the box. Going up, you don't blip the throttle, just let the clutch out in neutral and then change gear.
I've tried it on the way up and it does make the changes smoother but then so does changing gear slower. I THINK is is the shaft from the clutch to the gears (lets call it the widget shaft) that you are slowing down. The prop shaft and wheels are at roughtly the same speed and the engine has dropped slightly anyway but when you put the clutch in at say 5000rpm in 3rd, the widget shaft and it's connected cogs is still spinning at 5000rpm (not much encouragement for it to slow down as it is probably fairly light).
If you then change from one gear to another, you are trying to engage the dog teeth (insert suitable techie term) for a different gear which is spinning at lower revs and hence the syncromesh is put under strain to drop the speed of the widget shaft. If you double declutch, when you declutch in neutral, the widget shaft (now not connected to anything) is brought down to the speed of the engine (say 3000rpm) and hence when you engage the next gear, is is not so much strain.
This is probably complete rubbish so if someone knowlegable would like to correct me...
I'll have to read this again but it seems you have dropped from 5000rpm to 3000rpm in the course of one gear change!
More than enough to let the Max Power Nova think he's got away from you
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I'll have to read this again but it seems you have dropped from 5000rpm to 3000rpm in the course of one gear change!
Well I did mention 3rd gear and it you are changing up from 3rd at 5000rpm, you are far too busy to be watching what the revs fall to in 4th! I've usually got one eye watching the road and one eye watching the 5-6000rpm mark on the rev gauge. My Kingdom for a gear change light that actually works.
All this stuff is very interesting but is leaving me feeling a bit lacking in the old driving skills department. Can anyone recommend a course/trackday/whatever where I can learn the niceties of stuff like double de-clutching, heel and toeing, opposite lock etc . I would prefer if this cost less than Rik Waller's weekly food bill.
Griff or Chimp.......? Hmm, seems I was asking that very question weeks ago when I was looking for my tivver. I did exactly what you are about to do, so my advise is just go out and drive them both. You WILL find the one you want, but it might not be down just to the way it handles.
I did spend three weeks test driving Griffs and Chimps and it was very difficult to decide. THEN one came along that I could NOT let go. The price was right, the colour, and the condition/history.
As far as the handling goes; regardless of what it says on paper, I felt the Chimp was slightly softer. The Griff was more nervous, but you get used to it. And the Chimp has a longer wheel base so maybe its easier to catch the car if lets go. But BOTH cars WILL introduce their rear ends to a hedge if you don't respect the phenomenal grunt. So save heroics for track meets.
Good luck, and have fun looking
I did spend three weeks test driving Griffs and Chimps and it was very difficult to decide. THEN one came along that I could NOT let go. The price was right, the colour, and the condition/history.
As far as the handling goes; regardless of what it says on paper, I felt the Chimp was slightly softer. The Griff was more nervous, but you get used to it. And the Chimp has a longer wheel base so maybe its easier to catch the car if lets go. But BOTH cars WILL introduce their rear ends to a hedge if you don't respect the phenomenal grunt. So save heroics for track meets.
Good luck, and have fun looking
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