The new defender

The new defender

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Discussion

cowboyengineer

Original Poster:

605 posts

62 months

Tuesday 19th November
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I will order one when they release a commercial version

Cold

7,778 posts

38 months

Tuesday 19th November
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Commercial version will be available to order next year (90 + 110).

https://www.landrover.co.uk/explore-land-rover/new...

Andeh1

5,519 posts

154 months

Tuesday 19th November
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300bhp/ton said:
Andeh1 said:
1) No farmer buys anything even remotely new, let alone a JLR product.
Utter nonsense, do you live under a rock or something.
Here we go again.... Farmers probably represent <1% of the new car buying market. There isn't a discussion to be had here. They are not a big enough demographic to even remotely be considered by any car OEM. No one cares about what they want, so why do people insist on dredging it up as if Farmers are some Automotive buying powerhouse whose whim will make or break a new 4x4 release!? rolleyes

Anyway, it's a moot point. What environment do you think farmers take their vehicle in that would unstick a modern 4x4? Wet muddy fields? Do you think JLR or Toyota has not considered that when testing? Have a look at youtube for 100s & 100s of videos showing off the capability of the Discovery 5 - how many of them show it getting stuck in an equivalent to a Farmer's working environment....that any other vehicle would miraculously extract itself from (*unmodified).

Now consider the defender will basically be a Discovery 5 ability + some extra ''capability'' designed in (because: Defender), what evidence do you have that shows it won't basically be class leading in it's off road capability?

Old Defender vs Discovery 5? Even with the aftermarket tyres on the Defender, the Disco 5 still did it quicker & tighter then the defender did?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyTAGFW9M9M

Now, in the interest for fairness, I found the worse video i could for the Discovery 5, standard on 20" wheels - looks to be . Do you think any other modern 4x4 would do better? What Farmers fields do you know that would push it beyond that? if not that video, there are 100s & 100s of less interesting videos showing it's capabilities...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INIvaJHU2DE



  • (cost to buy, fix, repair etc etc aside - it's a premium car. It is what it is, it competes with BMW, Merc, Audi not Dacia or Suzuki)

300bhp/ton

37,730 posts

138 months

Tuesday 19th November
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Andeh1 said:
I changed the goal posts and topic....
Didn't you say no farmers buy new vehicles. What has this post got to do with any of that?

300bhp/ton

37,730 posts

138 months

Tuesday 19th November
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Andeh1 said:
Old Defender vs Discovery 5? Even with the aftermarket tyres on the Defender, the Disco 5 still did it quicker & tighter then the defender did?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyTAGFW9M9M
Not sure if serious......

Was it race? Didn't look like it to me. And the D5 turned tighter??? rofl what you mean is it ran over the cane because it was so BIG. Don't claim things that are untrue.

BTW all that vid shows is open diffs get cross axled easily, hence Defenders from 1998 onwards have Traction Control. And that the D5 really made rather a hash of getting up the hill and still managed to waggle a wheel about a foot and half in the air, showing how little flex the new platform actually has vs live axles.

loskie

1,504 posts

68 months

Tuesday 19th November
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if Skoda face lifted the now departed Yeti.

This would be it.

Amazing what a difference a badge makes to sales and customer perception.

Absolutely nothing wrong with the Yeti or the Defender well apart from the Defender price.

Edited by loskie on Tuesday 19th November 18:04

Brads67

1,917 posts

46 months

Tuesday 19th November
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Andeh1 said:
Made up rubbish to deflect from changing the subject cause I'm wrong
Pish

A.J.M

6,457 posts

134 months

Tuesday 19th November
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300bhp/ton said:
A.J.M said:
All the local farmers to me bar one, drive jap pick ups as they are cheaper, more reliable and just as capable.

The only exception is one who uses a D3.
Farming is pretty big and varied though. Plenty round here drive Land Rover's, in fact a close friend is very annoyed as his TDci 90 pick up was stolen recently. And LR don't offer anything similar he will literally be forced to buy something else.

Go to any farming events, big ones like Lamma or smaller local ploughing matches and you'll see loads of Land Rover's at both. New and old.

The pickups (not all are Jap wink ) are ok, but do have limitations. Bigger, worse turning circle, generally less good off road, often ride and handle worse (leaf springs!!!!) and many are still 2wd with selectable 4wd. One of the major plus points of a Defender is you can simply drive an and out of fields without the need to do anything.
That’s all well and wonderful.

But as usual. You miss the point, the locals to me had Defenders, they moved away from them due to the Japs because the Defenders, while good, spent a lot of time in the dealers/garages due to their rubbish build quality.

No point having that ability if it spends its time broken and unable to actually be used.

Having worked on a farm for 7 years. I’m aware of the varied machines needed, I drove them.

For the Royal Highland Show in Edinburgh, there are more Range Rovers in the car park than Defenders...

Andeh1

5,519 posts

154 months

Tuesday 19th November
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I moved the goal posts because there simply isn't really a discussion to be had on the main point? Farmers do not buy enough cars to register on any oems interest. What more is there to say about it? Its like arguing over accuracy in Disney films. Yeah OK, but it's fantasty (though Fantasia is epic with a large glass of wine....). wobble

For the sake of keeping the discussion going I thought I'd show off its capability compared to modified versions of it's predecessors.

nomad_

4 posts

22 months

Tuesday 19th November
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Andeh1 said:
Oh good greif, change the flipping record... rolleyes

1) No farmer buys anything even remotely new, let alone a JLR product. Old Japanese pick ups for the farmer, modified defender for his son.... whilst he finishes college. I live next door to one!

2) Name me one new car, that can be "fixed anywhere". With modern fuel economy, safety, crash legislation/ regulations nothing falls into that category by a country mile! Anywhere "off the beaten" track where reliability was critical...... You'd buy a Toyota.

Africa /Australia/South America..... The Defender is/was a luxury toy, same as they are today. We spent years living with one in South Africa, don't kid yourself. Great car club, die hard enthusiast, but you'd never argue durability with a land cruiser owner.

Edited by Andeh1 on Monday 18th November 19:31
I am a farmer and currently have several defenders running alongside several pickups. All are used for their intended purpose and have faired very well reliability wise. My “family car” was unfortunately a Range Rover Vogue but its reliability left a lot to be desired. The JLR customer service was even worse than the cars reliability and I changed it for the Cullinan. I’ve had it for 6 months and use it in the same way as I did the Range Rover. So far it’s taken everything very well but has got stuck once - admittedly the conditions would have given a Range Rover a run for its money but I wanted to see how capable the Cullinan was.

The new defender (for me, anyway) is absolutely shocking. The G-Wagon still maintained its identity and to the untrained eye still looks very much like the original G-Wagon. As does the Jeep Wrangler. I think it’s a real shame that JLR have created a “Defender” that looks like a jumped up Discovery on steroids. If you put the original Defender next to this “New Defender” it merely looks like a cheap Chinese knock-off of the one it’s trying to replace!

Deranged Rover

223 posts

22 months

Wednesday 20th November
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nomad_ said:
I am a farmer........
........I changed it for the Cullinan......
Bloody hell. What the heck are you farming?!

wink

300bhp/ton

37,730 posts

138 months

Wednesday 20th November
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A.J.M said:
That’s all well and wonderful.

But as usual. You miss the point, the locals to me had Defenders, they moved away from them due to the Japs because the Defenders, while good, spent a lot of time in the dealers/garages due to their rubbish build quality.

No point having that ability if it spends its time broken and unable to actually be used.

Having worked on a farm for 7 years. I’m aware of the varied machines needed, I drove them.

For the Royal Highland Show in Edinburgh, there are more Range Rovers in the car park than Defenders...
Many moved to non Land Rover products because..... wait for it...... Land Rover haven't offered anything since 2015/6 for them to buy.

Prior to that, there has just been more competition, so of course you will see more varied vehicles being bought --- more were for sale!

I regularly visit an area of North Wales, back in the 1990's, suddenly lots of the farms up there ran Daihatsu Fourtracks. Reason being a local dealer was selling them cheaper than a 90 and supported the market well. However within 5 years of them appearing, they had all but vanished, now you rarely see one anywhere. They simply didn't last as long as the 90 did for the same use, so many went back to Land Rover.

As for you claims of them breaking, maybe you are thinking of your Disco3 with it's complex electronics and air suspension. The Defender's are generally a lot more robust, in fact the weakest bits are the Ford engine and gearbox on the later models. That said, I know quite a few people with TDCI Defenders (my Uncle has two of them!). But I don't really know of any that were unreliable barring the design flaw with the Ford transmission, which can be fixed easily aftermarket.

300bhp/ton

37,730 posts

138 months

Wednesday 20th November
quotequote all
Andeh1 said:
I moved the goal posts because there simply isn't really a discussion to be had on the main point? Farmers do not buy enough cars to register on any oems interest. What more is there to say about it? Its like arguing over accuracy in Disney films. Yeah OK, but it's fantasty (though Fantasia is epic with a large glass of wine....). wobble

For the sake of keeping the discussion going I thought I'd show off its capability compared to modified versions of it's predecessors.
Moving the posts again.... you never said that. You said:

"1) No farmer buys anything even remotely new, let alone a JLR product."

Which is utter dribble.

300bhp/ton

37,730 posts

138 months

Wednesday 20th November
quotequote all
Andeh1 said:
For the sake of keeping the discussion going I thought I'd show off its capability compared to modified versions of it's predecessors.
lol rofl

You consider crappy standard sized BFG All Terrain tyres a "modified" Defender, in the hope of proving something..... Are you an idiot or mental?

300bhp/ton

37,730 posts

138 months

Wednesday 20th November
quotequote all
Deranged Rover said:
nomad_ said:
I am a farmer........
........I changed it for the Cullinan......
Bloody hell. What the heck are you farming?!

wink
Starting price of £264,000.....

I think pics and custard test are required! Preferably of it stuck in the mud too.

bakerstreet

4,238 posts

113 months

Wednesday 20th November
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Good to see that 300 has shifted this thread in the usual way. At least we have managed to avoid much talk or articulation on Live vs independent suspension.

I like Land Rovers a lot. Had a D3 and still have my series 3. I quite like the new Defender inside and out apart from a few small details. However, I refuse to believe that it is going to save Land Rover from their current troubles. I have yet to see one in the flesh. Not on any dealers mailing list and I would rather see one at a show. Going into a dealer is a waste of everyone's time in my case. I do not have the money to buy a new Defender....unfortunately.

As for farmers. so what if they don't buy it or even if they don't like it. I don't buy in to the fact that farmers stopped buying them in 2016 because it wasn't available. I recon the farming community abandoned them well before that. Maybe early noughties and definitely by mid naughties.

Why would you buy a Defender with its massive door gaps and next to no insulation when for considerably less cash you could get a double cab pick up with proper heating, more comfort and yes its not as good off road, but the double cabs have enough ability to do what is required of them.

The reality is Land Rover have taken too long to get the Defender to market and I'm quite surprised they haven't come out of the blocks with double cab pick up. I remember reading that its coming, but by the time they get here, ford could crush them with Rivian Tech inspired Ranger and once again they will be behind the curve.

Deranged Rover

223 posts

22 months

Wednesday 20th November
quotequote all
Clarkson reviewed the new Ford Ranger pickup in the Sunday Times last week and made the point that Land Rover no longer offered any competition for it. As he observed, it seems strange for Land Rover to have deserted a market segment that they helped create.

As to the newbie - I love it and can't wait to sit in one making "brrrm brrrm" noises at the Goodwood F.O.S. next year. But a "Defender" it ain't.

Andeh1

5,519 posts

154 months

Wednesday 20th November
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Andeh1 said:
I moved the goal posts because there simply isn't really a discussion to be had on the main point? Farmers do not buy enough cars to register on any oems interest. What more is there to say about it? Its like arguing over accuracy in Disney films. Yeah OK, but it's fantasty (though Fantasia is epic with a large glass of wine....). wobble

For the sake of keeping the discussion going I thought I'd show off its capability compared to modified versions of it's predecessors.
Moving the posts again.... you never said that. You said:

"1) No farmer buys anything even remotely new, let alone a JLR product."

Which is utter dribble.
OK, fine, fair enough...let's assume every farmer buys a new car at the same rate as the average uk adult. That's 150k ish farmers out of a UK adult population of 52 million. So the car buying population of farmers is around 2.5% of the uk market. For the USA its 1.3%. For China? Middle East? I'm guessing less so....

.... Soooooo not a sizable enough target audiences for any OEM to seriously consider?! So I repeat, what is this discussion you are so passionate about revolving around farmers & their needs!?

300bhp/ton said:
Andeh1 said:
For the sake of keeping the discussion going I thought I'd show off its capability compared to modified versions of it's predecessors.
lol rofl

You consider crappy standard sized BFG All Terrain tyres a "modified" Defender, in the hope of proving something..... Are you an idiot or mental?
Well, prove me wrong then. Show me some videos of a standard defender out pacing a standard discovery 5 like for like then? That was the closest video I could find that compared the two? There is, after all, no shortage of rather boring videos showing the disco 5 tackling 90% of your average (serious, but not extreme) off road terrain pretty successfully. We all know JLR will make the new defender 'more capable' then a disco 5.... so... The new Defender is probably going to be pretty capable off road, probably better then the old defender! eekrofl

(As for me being a mental and/or an idiot, I would still suggest "BFG all terrain tyres" do in fact class as a modification based on them being... a modification to original specification!?

Methinks maybe you have a slight chip on the ol' shoulder? scratchchin

Edit;



Edited by Andeh1 on Wednesday 20th November 20:27