My proposed NAS set up

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Discussion

Adam B

Original Poster:

18,467 posts

210 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
OK about to do this and current thinking is

Synology DS211J for about £160

plus 2 WD WD15EADS Caviar Green 1.5TB SATAII 32MB Cache 3.5 Inch HDD for £60 each

from what i read WD and seagate make the most reliable HDD but seagate have had problems of late

am I correct?
is this setup ok?
do I need both a power and a data cable like this for each HDD?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/SATA-POWER-ADAPTER-CABLE-D...

also what kit would be best as a bose idock replacement that would access itunes on the NAS and play all my music?

thanks

GlenMH

4,921 posts

199 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
You shouldn't need the cables - it should all be built in. Install disk in to tray, slide tray in and it all connects up.

Any DLNA device should be able to access it to play the media on there: PS3, boxee, etc etc

Rawwr

22,722 posts

190 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
I'm somewhat cynical about using eco disks in always-on environments and even more cynical about using them in RAID.

I don't really have much to add than that.

Ultraviolet

587 posts

172 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
Don't buy wd.. I've had 3 fail on me! Maxtor / seagate have always been excellent in my experience.

Uv

bigdods

6,975 posts

183 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
Ultraviolet said:
Don't buy wd.. I've had 3 fail on me! Maxtor / seagate have always been excellent in my experience.

Uv
I was going to say the opposite, dont buy Seagate buy WD. I think with HDD's now they all have similar MTBF and quality issues so not much in it between the manufacturers.

I will say however that Seagate had a production problem something like a year ago with the external USB Drives that you would have assumed would have been resolved by now. But I had a new one delivered to me in december that failed immediately with a known problem which first appeared over a year ago. Still waiting for a refund on that one.

Quality control doesnt seem to be their strong point

Rawwr

22,722 posts

190 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
You might want to consider looking at Samsung Spinpoint F3R disks. I believe they only go up to 1TB capacity at the moment but the R designation is something often overlooked.

deckster

4,929 posts

211 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
Rawwr said:
I'm somewhat cynical about using eco disks in always-on environments and even more cynical about using them in RAID.
Is there a reason for this? I'm using 2x2TB WD eco drives in my FreeNAS setup at the moment, non-RAIDED; I specced them more for noise reasons than anything else, and as it's primarily used as a media server I don't need super-fast disks. I've not had any problems and was going to spec the same when building up my new QNAP-based NAS. Just curious what your reasoning was for being cynical?

Rawwr

22,722 posts

190 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
I use R-class disks at home for a few reasons, really. Mostly because the manufacturer guarantees they'll be peachy within your array, they carry guaranteed access/seek times and come with a 5-year rather than a 1-year or 3-year warranty.

If the array in question is particularly busy, which mine is, the disks are generally doing a lot of work. If one of them fails, I don't want to spend time arguing with the manufacturer about what I was using it for.

I know WD refused a batch of warranty claims of non-R disks after the owners said they were being used in RAID. WD just said; "Yeah, they weren't intended for that. Bye."

No real performance difference but the extra fiver per disk for peace of mind is worth it.

/opinion

Accelebrate

4,470 posts

171 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
I'd say go with two different brands so long as the NAS box is happy with that (my Netgear ReadyNAS is).

Or if you are going for two of the same purchase them from different suppliers or at different times, you don't really want two from the same batch.

Adam B

Original Poster:

18,467 posts

210 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
There does not seem to be a consistent story about discs, on the various sites I gauged that maxtor and samsung were worst, seagate were good but had issues and WD were best, all had the stories of failure though

so sounds like I should go for WD R discs from different suppliers in RAID 1 (I think, not a techie, but think this means they backup each other)

can someone point me to a WD R disc on amazon or similar?



That is storage and backup sorted, what kit do I need that is basically a speaker with a screen that access music from the NAS over wifi and play it, ideally 2 or 3 that work in different rooms in concert? Does such a thing exist or do they all combine storage and playback?

Skier

485 posts

179 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
I believe you're restricting yourself unnecesarily. You're not building an enterprise server where downtime costs money; you're running a simple NAS - don't get hung up on drives specifically designed for use with RAID; just buy good drives. You can read all sorts of horror stories about any drives on manufacturers forums but very few people can truly compare the reliability of drives side-by-side.

If you want to stream music wirelessly then you should look at the Logitech Squeezebox range or, if you're willing to spend more money look at the Sonos range. Without knowing more about your existing hifi systems (if any) or your budget it's difficult to give specific recommendations.

ETA. RAID 1 is a 'mirrored' RAID i.e. one disc is identical to the other and if one fails you loose no data.

Skier

Edited by Skier on Thursday 27th January 22:00

bigdods

6,975 posts

183 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
Just For information, how the Raid and non raid drives differ from WD

http://wdc.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/13...

Cheapest RE spec Drive from amazon 1TB £92.99 Linky making it an expensive option as the equivalent 1TB caviar green is £42.50.



Edited by bigdods on Thursday 27th January 22:03


Edited by bigdods on Thursday 27th January 22:04

Adam B

Original Poster:

18,467 posts

210 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
thanks for all the advice so far

Skier said:
RAID 1 is a 'mirrored' RAID i.e. one disc is identical to the other and if one fails you loose no data.
I am not a techie (bet this is clear!) but that is exactly what I am after, ie 1.5tb capacity with a full back up if one fails - I thought this meant I have RAID 1 !?!?!?

'kin hell - who said R discs are an extra £5? for 1.5tb they seem to be £140 vs £60 for one I originally mentioned

I have no expensive hi-fi to speak of, been there before but now am not looking to invest in anything high quality but better than a bose idock would be preferable! I after convenience and small size really.

I looked at squeezebox but better look again as I thought they stored and played rather than just streamed and played (perhaps with a buffer memory only), I just don't want to have to pay for storage twice

ok would this do the trick:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sonos-Zoneplayer-White-Sta...

plus adding one or more of these:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sonos-ZP0S5UK1-Systems-Zon...


Edited by Adam B on Thursday 27th January 22:57

Skier

485 posts

179 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
I run Squeezebox Server software on a Thecus N5200 Pro streaming music wirelessly to a Squeezebox Duet attached to the hifi amplifier in my living room and two Squeezebox Radios: one in my bedroom and one in my kitchen. If you go down a streaming route you need to ensure that the NAS you choose has the horsepower to run server software. If not you can still store music on the NAS but will need a computer to run the server software.

A Thecus N5200 Pro will probably be OTT for you (and I wouldn't now recommend one anyway) but another aspect is the RAID you run. I used to run it from a RAID 5 but this proved a pain as it introduced a short (1 or 2 second) delay which may not sound like much but becomes highly irritating. I now run it from a RAID 0 that provides zero redundany or back-up but is blisteringly quick - the music on here is a copy. I have back-ups in several places including a RAID 5 on the Thecus. One advatnage of higher-end NAS devices such as this is that they will run multiple RAIDs of different types.

Anyway, the point I'm making is that you really need to look at several things:

- What do you really want to do
- Research thoroughly; is the NAS you're looking at up to the job?
- What's your budget. Do it on the cheap and you'll probably be dissapointed and end up spending more to improve/upgrade in a short time.

Good luck

Skier

Adam B

Original Poster:

18,467 posts

210 months

Thursday 27th January 2011
quotequote all
thanks skier, I am really here asking for that advice, I haven't got a clue what RAID is or does but thought this is what I was after in tech speak

perhaps if I answer your questions you could suggest the best bet

I have TV etc in the living room - big sony LCD, cheap sony surround sound amp/speakers, blu-ray, sky hd, xbox 360 and a sky broadband wi-fi router

in addition:

dell laptop
gf has a ibook
both run itunes
ipods
Bose ipod dock
cheapo midi system I never use
5000+ CDs
I buy CDs but am happy to play them via the blu-ray / surround sound system. I tend to rip them straight away using 256/320 mp3 and itunes

what I think I need:

a central store of music, photos, files (videos/films in the future but don't use now)
a secure data store (currently I back up the laptop with an external USB drive)
a store can be accessed by both of us, both mac and PC

what I want to do:

have a speaker box that I can access music on central storage, choose tunes like an ipod (ideally from a remote with a screen) and play in decent (not hi-fi) quality from a fixed unit in the lounge and portable unit in the bedroom (plus expansion of another 1 or 2 units if I buy a bigger place).

budget £1000-1500

am thinking:
NAS and 2 discs 300
sonos zoneplayer S5 with zonebridge 400
extra zoneplayer 350
sonos wireless music controller 280 (ouch)

so what do you reckon? right approach?

Edited by Adam B on Thursday 27th January 23:23

Skier

485 posts

179 months

Friday 28th January 2011
quotequote all
Adam B,

First, have a look at what different RAIDs offer look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

Given what you're looking at doing I really would recomend the Logitech systems rather than Sonos. The Sonos systems are far more expensive and offer very little extra. For you main requirement have a look at the Squeezebox Duet. Plug this into your surround sound system amp and you're there.

What does stand out to me for your requirements description is that I don't believe your proposed NAS soltion will really be man enough. Personally I would invest a little more money here. I would be looking at either QNAP or (for convenience as Logitech support it) a Netgear Ready NAS solution. This will be quite a bit more expensive but will allow you to expand in the future.

Skier

Adam B

Original Poster:

18,467 posts

210 months

Friday 28th January 2011
quotequote all
Skier said:
Adam B,

First, have a look at what different RAIDs offer look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

Given what you're looking at doing I really would recomend the Logitech systems rather than Sonos. The Sonos systems are far more expensive and offer very little extra. For you main requirement have a look at the Squeezebox Duet. Plug this into your surround sound system amp and you're there.

What does stand out to me for your requirements description is that I don't believe your proposed NAS soltion will really be man enough. Personally I would invest a little more money here. I would be looking at either QNAP or (for convenience as Logitech support it) a Netgear Ready NAS solution. This will be quite a bit more expensive but will allow you to expand in the future.

Skier
thanks again

read the wiki, lots of whoosh ensued, its hard to know the advantages of the different types

eg
"In RAID 2 (bit-level striping with dedicated Hamming-code parity), all disk spindle rotation is synchronized, and data is striped such that each sequential bit is on a different disk. Hamming-code parity is calculated across corresponding bits on disks and stored on one or more parity disks. Extremely high data transfer rates are possible."

I only understand the last sentence and am none the wiser as to whether I need that plus, what extra it costs and what NAS will run the various RAID types

squeezebox - good to know and happy to go with you on that one, but do they come in white rather than block boxes?

can you explain how the QNAP or Netgear would be better than Synology? was originally looking at netgear but prefer the styling of the Synology (really prefer white light over black boxes given my decor) and it had a great review in What Hi-Fi and Amazon. I am sure you are right but what features should I be looking for?

the_stoat

443 posts

167 months

Friday 28th January 2011
quotequote all
Adam B said:
thanks skier, I am really here asking for that advice, I haven't got a clue what RAID is or does but thought this is what I was after in tech speak

perhaps if I answer your questions you could suggest the best bet

I have TV etc in the living room - big sony LCD, cheap sony surround sound amp/speakers, blu-ray, sky hd, xbox 360 and a sky broadband wi-fi router

in addition:

dell laptop
gf has a ibook
both run itunes
ipods
Bose ipod dock
cheapo midi system I never use
5000+ CDs
I buy CDs but am happy to play them via the blu-ray / surround sound system. I tend to rip them straight away using 256/320 mp3 and itunes

what I think I need:

a central store of music, photos, files (videos/films in the future but don't use now)
a secure data store (currently I back up the laptop with an external USB drive)
a store can be accessed by both of us, both mac and PC

what I want to do:

have a speaker box that I can access music on central storage, choose tunes like an ipod (ideally from a remote with a screen) and play in decent (not hi-fi) quality from a fixed unit in the lounge and portable unit in the bedroom (plus expansion of another 1 or 2 units if I buy a bigger place).

budget £1000-1500

am thinking:
NAS and 2 discs 300
sonos zoneplayer S5 with zonebridge 400
extra zoneplayer 350
sonos wireless music controller 280 (ouch)

so what do you reckon? right approach?

Edited by Adam B on Thursday 27th January 23:23
I did this with a Windows Homeserver and various squeezeboxes. The Homeserver takes care of replicating across drives without the need to set up or understand RAID smile. It will autoback up windows devices and data can be accessed via a Mac.

I have Squeezebox Booms as standalone units and the sound quality is great and a Squeezebox Duet connect to a hi-fi in the lounge. I looked at the Sonos stuff and like Skier stated it just seemed too expensive compared to Squeezebox.



Edited by the_stoat on Friday 28th January 20:18

Skier

485 posts

179 months

Friday 28th January 2011
quotequote all
Don't get too hung up on the different RAIDs. The only ones that are relevant to most are RAID0, RAID1 and RAID5. You'll probably use RAID1 from what you've said and RAID 5 isn't an option with the NAS you're looking at (Synology DS211J) as it requires a minimum of 3 drives.

What I was trying to say on the different NAS devices is simply that if you are not that comfortable messing around with NAS file systems then getting a NAS that has a Squeezebox Server version that can simply be installed makes things easy. Having had a look at the Synology site it appears that they offer a Squeezebox Server installation here:

http://www.synology.com/support/faq_show.php?q_id=...

I bought my father the Synology DS211J as a back-up device and it has, so far, been excellent.

Unfortunately the Squeezebox devices don't come in white; I 'm afraid you'll have sell those as contrasting design statements!

Skier