Discussion
slinky said:
IIRC, there's a statement about fuel temperature in the regulations..
Yep - BMW Sauber and Williams cars had a fuel-temperature irregularity in Brazil (when Kimi won the WDC for ferrari) They were found to be cooling their fuel more than allowed. Mclaren protested it - However the result stayed the same and Kimi still won There was another good briefing by Ted Kravitz on this. The car has to use 100Kg for the race (lights to flag) but still must have enough for out lap, warm up lap, in lap and FIA sample, so it will actually have about 110Kg as it leaves the pits.
The FIA provide a standard fuel flow meter that the teams must use to ensure they don't exceed 100Kg. It would be great if the viewers could see live telemetry of the fuel remaining.
The FIA provide a standard fuel flow meter that the teams must use to ensure they don't exceed 100Kg. It would be great if the viewers could see live telemetry of the fuel remaining.
So we have Regs and an overall push to have more efficient / cleaner / greener cars in F1 – hence the fuel limit of 100kg being imposed - but is it really in the best interests of the sport to have limits for fuel? Why not leave that part of the Regs open and let the teams determine the most optimal package and fuel load per race? I just don’t get it, why did the TWG and teams agree to this?
Likes Fast Cars said:
So we have Regs and an overall push to have more efficient / cleaner / greener cars in F1 – hence the fuel limit of 100kg being imposed - but is it really in the best interests of the sport to have limits for fuel? Why not leave that part of the Regs open and let the teams determine the most optimal package and fuel load per race? I just don’t get it, why did the TWG and teams agree to this?
The sport recognises that it needs greater manufacturer involvement. The costs are now beyond the realms of the wealthy enthusiastic benefactor / sponsor type package which has led to budgets coming from strange and possibly dubious investment houses and the like which is never a good thing in the long term.Manufacturers bailed out because they had no money or couldn't justify the level of spend during the economic downturn but this is changing. So too has the motor industry, focusing far more on efficiency of resource than other, previous virtues such as sportiness or speed. Even speedy, sporty cars use their efficiency as key selling points (See Ford Focus ST for more information!).
So, to attract manufacturers back to the sport, F1 needs to be more closely aligned to this aim. The press cover this as providing a sporting platform that is more relevant to road cars. In fact, it's nothing to do with this at all or all the manufacturers would be investing in WRC, BTCC, WTC, etc. It's more about aligning the intent of F1 with the intent of the manufacturers to enable an easier sell in the board room.
garycat said:
There was another good briefing by Ted Kravitz on this. The car has to use 100Kg for the race (lights to flag) but still must have enough for out lap, warm up lap, in lap and FIA sample, so it will actually have about 110Kg as it leaves the pits.
The FIA provide a standard fuel flow meter that the teams must use to ensure they don't exceed 100Kg. It would be great if the viewers could see live telemetry of the fuel remaining.
teams will have none of it, they will try and get tv fuel meters out of the regulations faster than chilton can say "i finished every race"The FIA provide a standard fuel flow meter that the teams must use to ensure they don't exceed 100Kg. It would be great if the viewers could see live telemetry of the fuel remaining.
I do think that this year will be all about the 100kg of fuel. I went to Jerez yesterday having done so for the lat 9 years. These are my fairly random thoughts.
When waiting in the queue for tickets I thought the engine sound was poor – probably more like an Evo and way short of a Ferrari 458, or Aston, but when on track, it does not matter; the Ferrari F14t sounds better than the others but you will never need ear defenders again.
A whole lot of nothing was going on. Formula Pirelli is dead, tyres are now virtually irrelevant.
The cars spend a lot of time off-throttle – lift-off, brake if necessary, hit apex, electric motor fires up with perhaps 3 cylinders, all 6 fire up and the car rockets down the straight. Those flashing red lights for torque adjustments are on virtually all the time and so are pointless.
Most cars were locking up under braking at the final turn onto the straight – most cars went sideways as the torque kicked in at the corner before the chicane. Last year the RBs could do that under full acceleration but yesterday Ricardo was pottering round and it jumped out.
Renault are in deep do-doos – RB is just the manifestation of their problems. – Caterham are also stuffed and Lotus have no brains or cash left. Good news is that Williams will start to score points again.
The average lap time over a race will probably be lower than the average lap time in GP2 race. Pole time will be irrelevant as they will go out fully charged and not try to harvest so only one flying lap will be possible. It will be the only point in the weekend when the drivers feel they are fully in control and can make a big difference.
The key technical influence this year will be the guys who program the ECUs - different engine maps as they shed fuel. In order to maximise harvesting they will need a driver switchable setting for each corner and then another switch to determine how much KERS kicks in as the accelerate out. My guess is that McLaren could be ahead here; they supply the ECUs and have a division of guys to develop strategies for every race on their simulator. This year’s winner will have a Mercedes engine. The average lap time at Jerez is now around 1.26, this compares with about 1.19 when we had refuelling. I suppose a Dreamliner is more fuel efficient than Concorde was – “but am I bovvered”
They seem so much slower through corners, this nose thing is irrelevant, my guess is that drag reduction on the straight is now more important than a couple of points of downforce in corners.
Alonso stopped in front of our stand – he exited quickly and then watched the car as if he half expects it to go up in flames. My guess is that one of these things will go into meltdown during a race this year, Middle East perhaps, which will do the image of hybrid cars in the real world no good at all. Having green LED's to tell you a car is "safe" is not good PR.
The races might be like a 10,000 meter running race; you work out who your competition is and hang on to their shoulder (to conserve fuel) If you can keep in the 1 second window then DRS become another fuel saving device lap after lap. You then go for it big time with a few laps to go and hope the guy in front has not been selling you a dummy, by running too slow. So he will need to be tested occasionally but will probably want to drop back himself, so that third fastest takes up the running. Trying to create a gap and wasting fuel can no longer make sense. Unless you have a massive engine efficiency advantage.
When waiting in the queue for tickets I thought the engine sound was poor – probably more like an Evo and way short of a Ferrari 458, or Aston, but when on track, it does not matter; the Ferrari F14t sounds better than the others but you will never need ear defenders again.
A whole lot of nothing was going on. Formula Pirelli is dead, tyres are now virtually irrelevant.
The cars spend a lot of time off-throttle – lift-off, brake if necessary, hit apex, electric motor fires up with perhaps 3 cylinders, all 6 fire up and the car rockets down the straight. Those flashing red lights for torque adjustments are on virtually all the time and so are pointless.
Most cars were locking up under braking at the final turn onto the straight – most cars went sideways as the torque kicked in at the corner before the chicane. Last year the RBs could do that under full acceleration but yesterday Ricardo was pottering round and it jumped out.
Renault are in deep do-doos – RB is just the manifestation of their problems. – Caterham are also stuffed and Lotus have no brains or cash left. Good news is that Williams will start to score points again.
The average lap time over a race will probably be lower than the average lap time in GP2 race. Pole time will be irrelevant as they will go out fully charged and not try to harvest so only one flying lap will be possible. It will be the only point in the weekend when the drivers feel they are fully in control and can make a big difference.
The key technical influence this year will be the guys who program the ECUs - different engine maps as they shed fuel. In order to maximise harvesting they will need a driver switchable setting for each corner and then another switch to determine how much KERS kicks in as the accelerate out. My guess is that McLaren could be ahead here; they supply the ECUs and have a division of guys to develop strategies for every race on their simulator. This year’s winner will have a Mercedes engine. The average lap time at Jerez is now around 1.26, this compares with about 1.19 when we had refuelling. I suppose a Dreamliner is more fuel efficient than Concorde was – “but am I bovvered”
They seem so much slower through corners, this nose thing is irrelevant, my guess is that drag reduction on the straight is now more important than a couple of points of downforce in corners.
Alonso stopped in front of our stand – he exited quickly and then watched the car as if he half expects it to go up in flames. My guess is that one of these things will go into meltdown during a race this year, Middle East perhaps, which will do the image of hybrid cars in the real world no good at all. Having green LED's to tell you a car is "safe" is not good PR.
The races might be like a 10,000 meter running race; you work out who your competition is and hang on to their shoulder (to conserve fuel) If you can keep in the 1 second window then DRS become another fuel saving device lap after lap. You then go for it big time with a few laps to go and hope the guy in front has not been selling you a dummy, by running too slow. So he will need to be tested occasionally but will probably want to drop back himself, so that third fastest takes up the running. Trying to create a gap and wasting fuel can no longer make sense. Unless you have a massive engine efficiency advantage.
I think that will be the basic premiss for everyone at the start of the race. For the Pirelli era there has been a lot of conservation once the KERS ran out on the first lap.
Specific races like Monza really bother me as there are basically only 3 chicanes to harvest from, so they will just have to lift off way before the normal braking point. Have zero downforce to reduce drag and so just potter through the chicanes Lesmos and parabolica. Just getting to the end in what is normally a full-throttle race will be extremely difficult.
I watched Magnusson through the Jerez chicane yesterday, the car seemed pretty sorted in most places but just useless at the chicane. His performance was one of the highlights for me yesterday.
Specific races like Monza really bother me as there are basically only 3 chicanes to harvest from, so they will just have to lift off way before the normal braking point. Have zero downforce to reduce drag and so just potter through the chicanes Lesmos and parabolica. Just getting to the end in what is normally a full-throttle race will be extremely difficult.
I watched Magnusson through the Jerez chicane yesterday, the car seemed pretty sorted in most places but just useless at the chicane. His performance was one of the highlights for me yesterday.
rdjohn said:
I think that will be the basic premiss for everyone at the start of the race. For the Pirelli era there has been a lot of conservation once the KERS ran out on the first lap.
Specific races like Monza really bother me as there are basically only 3 chicanes to harvest from, so they will just have to lift off way before the normal braking point. Have zero downforce to reduce drag and so just potter through the chicanes Lesmos and parabolica. Just getting to the end in what is normally a full-throttle race will be extremely difficult.
Longer braking zones - more chance of overtaking?Specific races like Monza really bother me as there are basically only 3 chicanes to harvest from, so they will just have to lift off way before the normal braking point. Have zero downforce to reduce drag and so just potter through the chicanes Lesmos and parabolica. Just getting to the end in what is normally a full-throttle race will be extremely difficult.
rdjohn said:
What and waste fuel? See my point about keeping in the 1 second zone and saving fuel by deploying DRS.
The real race will start just before the finish. It could be interesting but like a 10,000m race a bit boring before it gets going.
good point about using drs to save fuel i never thought of that.The real race will start just before the finish. It could be interesting but like a 10,000m race a bit boring before it gets going.
RealSquirrels said:
why would the braking zones be longer? they will all brake as late as possible, it's the quickest way.
I think you are wrong, harvesting energy is necessary to get to the end of the race. If the stopping distance is short, the braking phase, by definition, is also short. Using ERS-H provides 50% of electric propulsion and so has to be ECU managed to be as long as possible. It will be triggered by lift-off and not the brake pedal. How much rear brake to be applied is determined by the ECU. (Apparent) Time off the throttle was the biggest thing I noticed yesterday. It is huge in comparison to last year, or any other form of motorsport.. The ERS kicks in with the engine running perhaps 3 cylinders and then the whole system kicks in going down the straight. It is like no motor racing sound that you have heard before
The guys who program the ECUs will be in great demand, CFD will become less important. Low drag is now more important than a couple of extra points downforce, as that equates to drag and wasting fuel.
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