Discussion
I found these videos really interesting, hope you find them interesting to.
In my eyes all the RS's are special and it all comes down to personal taste and driving styles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqa6q95ayk8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSh5XEBf83E
Pocty
In my eyes all the RS's are special and it all comes down to personal taste and driving styles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqa6q95ayk8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSh5XEBf83E
Pocty
The 6RS come out this week for a few drives after a bit of a lay off.
It is quite subtely different (thinking more from a 996 GT3 comparison than a 997 one)
You can really feel the 50kg or so of lightness...I really don't think it is just placebo
The car is that much lighter on its toes, so much more engaging
...and my 996 GT3 which I am mentally comparing to is no slouch either - that is a CS model running cup diff and aggressive geo.
...however the weight reduction coupled with the engine tweaks which change the power delivery in mid band (again more subtle delta than explosive delta) make for a much more responsive, angrier, and immediate responding experience.
Funnily enough the car does move around a little..too much agressive action with the right foot (e.g. throttle lift followed by power down) and the diff locks and the car suddenly rotates more than expected, etc. Every now and then it reacts to the imperfections in the road - I dont mean random sniffing out of cambers - but actual reaction to the topography of the road, a bump, a dip, a camber, painted surface, etc...I call this feedback and feel, someone not used to it may call it a wayward car...but thats what's so great about them!
Then the RS livery adds to the drama and attracts a lot more attention too...once upon a time a 6RS would not attract all that much attention. However, today I've had so many traffic light, parked by, appreciative comments by members of the public...it was as if as the cars are getting older, the general public is recognising a historic classic as opposed to the latest modern sports car iteration.
Yes, the real world price delta between a 996 GT3 and 996 RS is probably not directly worth the parts / performance difference...but at one point today as I stopped at a red light, I did turn to the other half and point out how I felt I was driving a little piece of history...a work of art
Anyway, I shall stop reveling in my little state of happiness now
It is quite subtely different (thinking more from a 996 GT3 comparison than a 997 one)
You can really feel the 50kg or so of lightness...I really don't think it is just placebo
The car is that much lighter on its toes, so much more engaging
...and my 996 GT3 which I am mentally comparing to is no slouch either - that is a CS model running cup diff and aggressive geo.
...however the weight reduction coupled with the engine tweaks which change the power delivery in mid band (again more subtle delta than explosive delta) make for a much more responsive, angrier, and immediate responding experience.
Funnily enough the car does move around a little..too much agressive action with the right foot (e.g. throttle lift followed by power down) and the diff locks and the car suddenly rotates more than expected, etc. Every now and then it reacts to the imperfections in the road - I dont mean random sniffing out of cambers - but actual reaction to the topography of the road, a bump, a dip, a camber, painted surface, etc...I call this feedback and feel, someone not used to it may call it a wayward car...but thats what's so great about them!
Then the RS livery adds to the drama and attracts a lot more attention too...once upon a time a 6RS would not attract all that much attention. However, today I've had so many traffic light, parked by, appreciative comments by members of the public...it was as if as the cars are getting older, the general public is recognising a historic classic as opposed to the latest modern sports car iteration.
Yes, the real world price delta between a 996 GT3 and 996 RS is probably not directly worth the parts / performance difference...but at one point today as I stopped at a red light, I did turn to the other half and point out how I felt I was driving a little piece of history...a work of art
Anyway, I shall stop reveling in my little state of happiness now
Got round to looking at the vids while a server loads up
Just sounds a whole lot of compromise on any of them on track and on the road
understeer seems the order of the day. and PASM sucks.
and on the road 2 of them will drive you into a ditch !!!
Just sounds a whole lot of compromise on any of them on track and on the road
understeer seems the order of the day. and PASM sucks.
and on the road 2 of them will drive you into a ditch !!!
Edited by mrdemon on Wednesday 19th November 18:14
mrdemon said:
Got round to looking at the vids while a server loads up
Just sounds a whole lot of compromise on any of them on track and on the road
understeer seems the order of the day. and PASM sucks.
and on the road 2 of them will drive you into a ditch !!!
If ditches scare you and you don't have enough confidence in your own ability may i make a suggestion ? The answer might lie in a Cayman, Porsche's 'finest handling car'.Just sounds a whole lot of compromise on any of them on track and on the road
understeer seems the order of the day. and PASM sucks.
and on the road 2 of them will drive you into a ditch !!!
Edited by mrdemon on Wednesday 19th November 18:14
Saying that, every time i've driven one its bored the tits off me. Can't stand the damm things.
YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY
jackal said:
If ditches scare you and you don't have enough confidence in your own ability may i make a suggestion ? The answer might lie in a Cayman, Porsche's 'finest handling car'.
Saying that, every time i've driven one its bored the tits off me. Can't stand the damm things.
YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY
Even a Cayman R Jackal? Genuinely interested in your view here.Saying that, every time i've driven one its bored the tits off me. Can't stand the damm things.
YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY
Did own a 6RS great car but not an everyday one as we all know and not my personal favourite which is why I moved it on. Not a bad experience however for financial reasons :-)
Scooty100 said:
Even a Cayman R Jackal? Genuinely interested in your view here.
Did own a 6RS great car but not an everyday one as we all know and not my personal favourite which is why I moved it on. Not a bad experience however for financial reasons :-)
Yep, even a Cayman R. Here's my summation from another thread :Did own a 6RS great car but not an everyday one as we all know and not my personal favourite which is why I moved it on. Not a bad experience however for financial reasons :-)
When my Slate grey Gen 1 GT3 went back to Swindon OPC for some warranty work, I requested a Cayman R as a loan car. Swindon were very accommodating and I found myself with the keys to an almost new GT Silver Cayman R for the next five days.
Having read all the glowing road tests of the recently launched car, I couldn’t wait to get behind the wheel.
Alas, I’m afraid it turned out to be rather a damp squib. If the 964 RS sounds like old tin cans (not sure what you’re referring to specifically ?) the Cayman R sounded like any other car on the road (but hey, at least by pressing a button you could make it sound “sporty”). And what a sporty noise it was. Not. Instead you got a slightly louder and more convoluted/synthesised version of the “basic” non-sport noise.
A word in your shell-like, get someone to take you out in a de-catted 964 RS, (preferably one fitted with a Cup pipe fitted) then you’ll know what “sporty” sounds like. But failing that, I’ll take you out for a spin in my Manthey modified GT3.
“But what if I don’t want the sporty noise all the time ?” you say. Simple, don’t tread on the loud pedal so heavily.
So my summation is thus :
Steering ? Lifeless, lacking in weight, feedback and to a lesser degree, feel (not helped by the Bridgestone tyres I suspect).
Brakes ? Rather lacking in feel, pathetically small and looked lost behind the rather lovely 19” lightweight wheels.
Engine ? Dull, lacking in any real character, top end verve and a decent soundtrack.
Internal door pulls ? A joke (see my original post below requoted for posterity) :
"Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R and feel how, as a sop to the RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*te it feels in it's action when compared to the original. It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide"
Interior ? Bland and generally lacking any sense of occasion.
The drive ? Very accomplished (but wait for it), dull. I had the car five days, but having driven it from Swindon back oop North, it sat forlornly on the drive for the duration, as I couldn’t muster sufficient enthusiasm to take it on a proper cross country hoon across N.Wales. How sad is that ?
Conclusion ? Just not special enough, too amorphous and too anodyne for my taste.
Overly harsh ? Maybe. But anyone that's driven an air-cooled RS or a water-cooled GT car (well certainly the 996 iterations) will be all too aware that the Cayman, irrespective of how efficient it is at getting from A to B, has little in the way of character, limited tactility, and from my perspective is about as engaging as night down the pub with Simon Cowell.
thought some might find this interesting, i assume it was filmed from the same day as the videos OP posted, sorry if repost.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOphG8sztfk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOphG8sztfk
Is the Cayman really this poor? Which I find hard to believe given the strength of Porsche as a brand
Or is this an (exaggerated) polar opposite reaction to someone else on this thread who has had an open and vociferous opinion that is (some would say irrationally) anti-GT3?
(PH threads can get a bit tit/tat which I think has the risk of discouraging further contribution)
Or is this an (exaggerated) polar opposite reaction to someone else on this thread who has had an open and vociferous opinion that is (some would say irrationally) anti-GT3?
(PH threads can get a bit tit/tat which I think has the risk of discouraging further contribution)
LaSource said:
Is the Cayman really this poor? Which I find hard to believe given the strength of Porsche as a brand
Or is this an (exaggerated) polar opposite reaction to someone else on this thread who has had an open and vociferous opinion that is (some would say irrationally) anti-GT3?
(PH threads can get a bit tit/tat which I think has the risk of discouraging further contribution)
No, it's not an "exaggerated" polar opposite reaction Or is this an (exaggerated) polar opposite reaction to someone else on this thread who has had an open and vociferous opinion that is (some would say irrationally) anti-GT3?
(PH threads can get a bit tit/tat which I think has the risk of discouraging further contribution)
far from it. Which is precisely why I stated it was from a previous thread (perhaps I should have said it was from a non-Porsche forum, non-Demon thread ?) Neither was it a tit for tat post, because it was not intended for Demon's perusal originally.The Cayman R is an accomplished car, but so is a Datsun GTR and a 997/991 Turbo S, neither of which I aspire to own. That doesn't mean they're bad cars (and despite having driven a 997 TS and not particularly been impressed, I didn't then post on here saying they're rubbish because the example I drove didn't "do" it for me) it just means that ultimate speed isn't everything for me, and easily attainable speed even less so.
For me the CR is just too easy and lacking in tactility and engagement to make it an event/challenging to drive, hence my use of the words "not special enough, too amorphous and too anodyne".
Someone referred to the words in my initial post (I've linked to below) on the 964 RS as eulogising. Could I do the same with the Cayman R ? No. Could I do the same with either of my 996 GT2's ? Certainly. My CSL ? Definitely. All the Mk1 996 GT3's I've owned ? Well I think you know the answer to that one .......
Of course Mr D sees those who eulogise about their GT3's as "fanboys", one assumes that to be a derogatory term ?. But he's also stated in black and white, on this very forum, that GT3 owners discussing their cars in such terms annoy/irritate him immensely.The word hate may have been used iirc.
We have to ask ourselves why that is, and the obvious answer is his brief ownership wasn't enjoyable for a host of reasons (reasons few others agree with seemingly) thus he's taken it upon himself to wage a campaign to discredit both the GT3 and it's owners on here.
This used to be the go to forum for GT3 owners to garner information about their cars, be they tracking them or using them on the road. But then Mr D appeared on here, he took it upon himself to respond to almost any comments posted by well-intentioned GT3 owners, with snide, sarcastic contrary responses whose sole purpose was/is to create discord, in the process he forced several well intentioned and well regarded contributors to leave this forum. Not content with having done as much (but I assume pleased with his actions) his behaviour continues to this day without showing any sign of abating. Normally in these circumstances, the old adage "don't feed the troll would apply", regrettably Mr Demon's campaign isn't so easily ended it would seem.
But I digress ......
My comments on the CR can be found in context within this thread regarding 964 RS values :
Specifically my initial post can be found here :
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
The summation of the Cayman is on the final page of the thread :
Enjoy ....
Edited by Slippydiff on Thursday 20th November 01:34
of course the Cayman comments are ""exaggerated" views esp some of the daft things , like the steering is dull !! the steering on a R is better than any GT3, it's more weighted and you have a bit more weight over the front.
People who find them dull are just not driving hard enough, prob too use to having to back off in a GT3 when the Cayman will just give you more lol (joke, chill out)
I am not anti GT3, I think the car is torn about what it is, these vids prove that yet again, yes you CAN make a good GT3, many do and spend £1000's on them.
I won't even talk 964 RS with cup pipes, you can put straight through pipes on any car, and the 964RS is very harsh ride for the road.
I was close to buying a nice example when they were in the £40's but boy does that jiggle about, great fun my go in one, but again not a B road car.
I would love a GT3, and a 964RS and a few other cars in my garage, but on here the GT3 has a very screwed view on what is great, and most people have cars so modded then pit them up vs a stock Cayman with stock geo and pads on a track like Spa or some thing daft.
I always buy the best car in the range , always have right from a MIni (own a JCW) to a GT3, you never look back and think "I just wish" so had a Noble , CSL, M3 V8 comp, exiges, Clio Trophy, JCW, Cayman R's , SPyders, Gt3's you get the drift.
the GT3 is the most over hyped car of them all imo, hence you see the same cars up for sale time and time again with 7 or even 10 owners even on 2010 cars.
I have always said I have a love/hate with them (that's the only time I used the word hate) as it's not a word I like to use, but love/hate is a well know saying....
The GT3 is a great car on the right road in the right place, sadly in the UK those "RIGHT" roads don't come up that often.
I think we would all like a GT3 as a 4th car (with passives) to take to some of these Euro track days, as there is not much any better.
But I think my GT3 views are very valid and there are a growing amount of ex GT3 owners now in R's on this forum.
the R has it's flaws of course but with a few simple cheap tweaks it's a great car to drive in the UK.
All the cars are great, I think people get over protective when I voice what I think a GT3 is like, some say you talk up the cars you own, but I owned a very clean well set up example, and still said what I said, I always put my money where my mouth is and not fussed what people say or think about cars, they are lumps of metal and will be still running when I am long gone, So we really only rent them even if we own them.
I liked the Spyder so much which I ran along side the GT3 for 8 months that I did not want the R and bought the M3 but again a very frustrating over hyped car imo. hence ending up in the R which to some seems daft when I own a Spyder, but they are great drivers car imho esp on a summers day when you can have the roof off in the Spyder, you can tell it's light in the drive, in fact the lightest car Porsche have made for many years and that does buck about more than the R (not a ditch finder though on the Fosse way as an example but an exciting bit of movement)
may people aspire to own a GT3, and that is when I post and ask what they want to do with the car, as for many the GT3 is the WRONG car to own, and that's where GT3 owners get so upset and cause such a load of hassle it all goes to s
t lol even to a point you get GT3 drivers trying to run off unknown Spyders off the track and even post the vids on you tube !!!
So the haters will hate and life goes on, as long as we enjoy the cars we own then it's all good, but too many people do argue black is white but that's forums for you.
I am sure the GT4 will cause a whole new load of comments esp since it's touted as a drivers car now the new 991 GT3 is all electric and automatic.
People who find them dull are just not driving hard enough, prob too use to having to back off in a GT3 when the Cayman will just give you more lol (joke, chill out)
I am not anti GT3, I think the car is torn about what it is, these vids prove that yet again, yes you CAN make a good GT3, many do and spend £1000's on them.
I won't even talk 964 RS with cup pipes, you can put straight through pipes on any car, and the 964RS is very harsh ride for the road.
I was close to buying a nice example when they were in the £40's but boy does that jiggle about, great fun my go in one, but again not a B road car.
I would love a GT3, and a 964RS and a few other cars in my garage, but on here the GT3 has a very screwed view on what is great, and most people have cars so modded then pit them up vs a stock Cayman with stock geo and pads on a track like Spa or some thing daft.
I always buy the best car in the range , always have right from a MIni (own a JCW) to a GT3, you never look back and think "I just wish" so had a Noble , CSL, M3 V8 comp, exiges, Clio Trophy, JCW, Cayman R's , SPyders, Gt3's you get the drift.
the GT3 is the most over hyped car of them all imo, hence you see the same cars up for sale time and time again with 7 or even 10 owners even on 2010 cars.
I have always said I have a love/hate with them (that's the only time I used the word hate) as it's not a word I like to use, but love/hate is a well know saying....
The GT3 is a great car on the right road in the right place, sadly in the UK those "RIGHT" roads don't come up that often.
I think we would all like a GT3 as a 4th car (with passives) to take to some of these Euro track days, as there is not much any better.
But I think my GT3 views are very valid and there are a growing amount of ex GT3 owners now in R's on this forum.
the R has it's flaws of course but with a few simple cheap tweaks it's a great car to drive in the UK.
All the cars are great, I think people get over protective when I voice what I think a GT3 is like, some say you talk up the cars you own, but I owned a very clean well set up example, and still said what I said, I always put my money where my mouth is and not fussed what people say or think about cars, they are lumps of metal and will be still running when I am long gone, So we really only rent them even if we own them.
I liked the Spyder so much which I ran along side the GT3 for 8 months that I did not want the R and bought the M3 but again a very frustrating over hyped car imo. hence ending up in the R which to some seems daft when I own a Spyder, but they are great drivers car imho esp on a summers day when you can have the roof off in the Spyder, you can tell it's light in the drive, in fact the lightest car Porsche have made for many years and that does buck about more than the R (not a ditch finder though on the Fosse way as an example but an exciting bit of movement)
may people aspire to own a GT3, and that is when I post and ask what they want to do with the car, as for many the GT3 is the WRONG car to own, and that's where GT3 owners get so upset and cause such a load of hassle it all goes to s
t lol even to a point you get GT3 drivers trying to run off unknown Spyders off the track and even post the vids on you tube !!!So the haters will hate and life goes on, as long as we enjoy the cars we own then it's all good, but too many people do argue black is white but that's forums for you.
I am sure the GT4 will cause a whole new load of comments esp since it's touted as a drivers car now the new 991 GT3 is all electric and automatic.
Alpinestars said:
Is the GT4 going to be manual and non electric?
My 2p worth, the Spyder is a "nice" car, but its engine, grip and steering are not even in the same ball park as a GT3 - of any ilk.
I'm sure the Spyder is better suited to some roads, but that doesn't make it better than a GT3.
I am not saying any car is better, people mod them to suit what they want to do with them.My 2p worth, the Spyder is a "nice" car, but its engine, grip and steering are not even in the same ball park as a GT3 - of any ilk.
I'm sure the Spyder is better suited to some roads, but that doesn't make it better than a GT3.
It is no good having all the grip in the world if you cannot keep the wheels on the tarmac !
Some say the Cayman and Boxster have too much grip to be fun. others want more grip.
every review says the 911 understeers and every new 911 is slighty better in that dept (Chris Harris always said that which was amusing and he must be the biggest GT3 fan)
it seems the only way to stop under steer in a 911 is to have rear wheel steering :-) but the track guys run so much neg camber it's ruins the car for the road or the wet.
The GT4 is not going to have Rear steer, or PDK( so the rumour is) but I guess we are stuck with electric steering.
As I said all great cars but not in all area's
LaSource said:
Is the Cayman really this poor? Which I find hard to believe given the strength of Porsche as a brand
Think it probably lies somewhere in between the 2 extremes portrayed here, at least for me anyway. Seriously considered one last year but while it was a nice enough well sorted car (particularly for the price), the cayman r is nothing like as special to drive as any gt3 IMO and I would never ever consider swapping a gt3 for the R if financial considerations didn't come into it.The thing with the Cayman is it's in the middling ground. It's nowhere near as connected, feelsome and VITAL as a GT3 or an older aircooled 911 and dynamically nowhere near as interesting or rewarding either. As a SPECIAL weekend car, a roadtrip car, an EVENT ... it just doesn't hit the spot. But then as a more generalist performance car, someting like an M5 or a Cayenne Turbo is just as much fun yet way way faster and light years better at all the practical stuff like comfort, carrying passengers and luggage, toys and specification etc.
Give me the extremes, the ultimates, the reference standard at either end ... I don't want anything from the middle. I don't aspire to the middle. The middle is bad.
Give me the extremes, the ultimates, the reference standard at either end ... I don't want anything from the middle. I don't aspire to the middle. The middle is bad.
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