Discussion
This f4 lark is getting to be a drag in this dreary weather ( 70-200f4L ). I have set up several bird feeders in my garden and have loads of great and blue tits and a few robins visiting frequently but.....quite often i am finding that even on my tripod the 60 or 80 shutter speed that i am getting with iso 100 is unacceptable for good bird pictures.
It seems that the smaller the bird, the more skittish they are and flit everywhere.
My question is that if i was to go to iso 1600 i find i can get between 500 and 800+ with current light conditions but too much noise. I have downloaded a trial of neat image which is pretty good but will i loose detail at high iso? I can't afford an upgrade to a decent raw package such as photoshop cs or i capture = the upgrade to windows xp and i find that neat image tends to just smooth the edges as well as filtering out noise. Maybe i am using it wrong.
Would it be better to shoot in raw at high iso and retain all the data for processing? or is noise not a factor when retaining detail is thing, erm important?
Not really communicating well today but i think i have thrown in enough words to get my point across
thanks
ian
It seems that the smaller the bird, the more skittish they are and flit everywhere.
My question is that if i was to go to iso 1600 i find i can get between 500 and 800+ with current light conditions but too much noise. I have downloaded a trial of neat image which is pretty good but will i loose detail at high iso? I can't afford an upgrade to a decent raw package such as photoshop cs or i capture = the upgrade to windows xp and i find that neat image tends to just smooth the edges as well as filtering out noise. Maybe i am using it wrong.
Would it be better to shoot in raw at high iso and retain all the data for processing? or is noise not a factor when retaining detail is thing, erm important?
Not really communicating well today but i think i have thrown in enough words to get my point across
thanks
ian
Sorry i don't think i made myself clear
What i should have said was fast shutter speeds and does noise overwrite data at high iso.
I caught this one about 45 minutes ago at about 1000th. I needed iso 1600 to get that although admittedly it was pretty overcast and at full zoom.
As you can see the shutter speed wasn't nearly fast enough for this nut stealer.
This guy sat still for about 2 seconds yesterday though in fairly decent light and i retained a fair amount of detail at iso 400.
And apart from the 100% crop that was straight from the camera.
I guess it's just not the best lens for wildlife (fast) in poor light. Damn my budget
You can never have too many tits imho
although the occasional low flying formation of geese might be nice.
>> Edited by bilko2 on Monday 7th March 16:33
What i should have said was fast shutter speeds and does noise overwrite data at high iso.
I caught this one about 45 minutes ago at about 1000th. I needed iso 1600 to get that although admittedly it was pretty overcast and at full zoom.
As you can see the shutter speed wasn't nearly fast enough for this nut stealer.
This guy sat still for about 2 seconds yesterday though in fairly decent light and i retained a fair amount of detail at iso 400.
And apart from the 100% crop that was straight from the camera.
I guess it's just not the best lens for wildlife (fast) in poor light. Damn my budget
You can never have too many tits imho
although the occasional low flying formation of geese might be nice. >> Edited by bilko2 on Monday 7th March 16:33
The problems with these really tiny birds is they just move so fast. It's incredibly difficult for the AF to keep up. In the air without AFS I would not expect to have a chance.
One thing I would try is a bit of fill flash. The D70 will sync at a good old lick (1/250th to 1/500th IIRC). Even though the shutter speed is only 1/250th here the flash burst will liekly be so much shorter, 1/5,000th or something of that order. This can make your image look a lot sharper.
I'd go for ISO 320 or ISO 400 then add in a bit of fill-flash, with say -1 to -2EV flash exposure compensation (can be set pretty easily from the camera) and then bang away on that.
Don't worry too much about the fill flash as the birds seem to regard ita bit like lightning and it doesn't seem to put them off.
Chris
One thing I would try is a bit of fill flash. The D70 will sync at a good old lick (1/250th to 1/500th IIRC). Even though the shutter speed is only 1/250th here the flash burst will liekly be so much shorter, 1/5,000th or something of that order. This can make your image look a lot sharper.
I'd go for ISO 320 or ISO 400 then add in a bit of fill-flash, with say -1 to -2EV flash exposure compensation (can be set pretty easily from the camera) and then bang away on that.
Don't worry too much about the fill flash as the birds seem to regard ita bit like lightning and it doesn't seem to put them off.
Chris
Scooby_snax said:
Do you have digital if so why not underexpose then bring the lighting balance up in photoshop for that VGA look
Joking aside, at this light levels all that seems to do is drag the noise up as well, making it no better than just boosting the ISO. If it's a 300D/10D I'd go no more than 800iso, put the camera in AF servo and fire until the buffer fills. On a feeder that doesn't swing much the bird will stop for a bit. Fire enough shots and you'll catch him, even in the 1/100 range.
cheers guys
yes i am using a 300D and unfortunately i think the frame rate is 2 shots per second. Haven't got an external flash so i think i will have to wait for better light. Either that or bigger birds. I think you are right about the noise, as this is the low end of the Canon dslr range it doesn't fair so well at high iso and RAW plus loads of post processing kind of takes the triumph and fun out of it.
Still it is a good lens, i guess i will have to find some cars to photoghraph
yes i am using a 300D and unfortunately i think the frame rate is 2 shots per second. Haven't got an external flash so i think i will have to wait for better light. Either that or bigger birds. I think you are right about the noise, as this is the low end of the Canon dslr range it doesn't fair so well at high iso and RAW plus loads of post processing kind of takes the triumph and fun out of it.
Still it is a good lens, i guess i will have to find some cars to photoghraph
pug406 said:
cheers guys
yes i am using a 300D and unfortunately i think I should have got a D70. I guess i will have to find some cars to photoghraph
Sorry, I could not resist it
Yeah, the D70's whole 0.5 frames per second really makes a big difference. Oh, and generally the D70's generate more noise than the 300D.
As you say, I could not resist.
ThatPhilBrettGuy said:
bilko2 said:
cheers guys
yes i am using a 300D and unfortunately i think I should have got a D70. I guess i will have to find some cars to photoghraph
Sorry, I could not resist it
Yeah, the D70's whole 0.5 frames per second really makes a big difference. Oh, and generally the D70's generate more noise than the 300D.
As you say, I could not resist.
That's what the P & V forum is all about, a bit of banter between the 2 camps. Mind you, we all admire good shots from either make - Canon or Nikon.
ThatPhilBrettGuy said:Yes, for the first few frames there's not much in it and it's hardly worth arguing about, but look how well the D70 holds the rate compared to the 300D:
Yeah, the D70's whole 0.5 frames per second really makes a big difference. Oh, and generally the D70's generate more noise than the 300D.
The Nikon holds much more frames to begin with than the Canon at the advertised frame rates, and even when it loses that the speed is still significantly better than the Canon.
Both images above represent a 20-second burst of continous shooting, and the Canon manages 23 frames in that time. The Nikon does almost double that at 44.
That difference to me is VERY relevant to real-world quick shooting, so the advertised "mere 0.5fps" doesn't really tell you the whole picture. This was one of the reasons why I bought a D70 over a 300D.
And yes, I couldn't resist either.
>> Edited by -DeaDLocK- on Tuesday 8th March 14:28
The max ISO you want to go to on a 300D/10D is 800. Always expose to the right of the histogram as this helps reduce noise. Doing exposure compensation in PS generally amplifies any noise in the picture.
As for lenses, the 500L F4 is the default for birders, sometimes coupled with the 1.4x extender. That lens is pretty expensive though. A cheaper alternative that will produce sharp photographs is the Sigma 50-500mm(often nicknamed the Bigma).
As for lenses, the 500L F4 is the default for birders, sometimes coupled with the 1.4x extender. That lens is pretty expensive though. A cheaper alternative that will produce sharp photographs is the Sigma 50-500mm(often nicknamed the Bigma).
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