Jointly buying property in France, inheritance, etc.
Discussion
I've been thinking of moving abroad. I'm currently single, own a 4 bed house. No mortgage, should sell for close to £300k. I'm 60, retired early on a couple of final salary pensions, plus small business which should be transferrable to France.
I have 2 sisters who are also interested in leaving the UK. They have no property to sell, but would be able to contribute with building and farming skills. One sister's partner is a skilled plasterer, who can turn her hand to most building tasks. My other sister was married to a farmer.
Between them they have 7 kids, aged 17 down to 6. The oldest 2 would likely stay in the UK for college, and live with my other sister who won't travel.
Mum has wanted to move to Spain for many years, but Dad wasn't keen. Dad passed away 4 months ago, so Mum is now up for a move to France. Her house is worth about £350k, but there is an equity release mortgage of around £120k.
I have a brother, but he has shut himself off from the rest of the family. It's got worse since Dad died. He hasn't visited Mum since the funeral. He owns a house, and has a decent amount of savings.
We are looking into the possibility of buying a large property with room for all of us to have our own accommodation. Maybe a country house complex with some gites, or barns that could be converted into gites. Plenty out there for £300 to £400k. Enough space for us to live together, but with our own front doors, and get some rental income. On the surface, it seems doable.
There are some implications for inheritance in the future though. Mum's will currently leaves her estate to be split equally between the 5 of us, and none of us want to "diddle" my brother and one sister out of their share when the time comes (Mum is 80).
What's the best way to plan this so that it's fair to everyone, while minimising any tax and inheritance implications?
I should add that, if things stay as they are (not moving to France), the chances are that there will be nothing left to inherit, as the equity release mortgage is eroding the money left in Mum's house, and care home fees will likely take care of the rest. If we all move, the "contract" with my sisters would be that they take care of Mum when she needs it, and also me when my my time comes.
I have no kids, ex wife isn't in my will, so my estate will pass to my siblings or nephews/nieces.
I have 2 sisters who are also interested in leaving the UK. They have no property to sell, but would be able to contribute with building and farming skills. One sister's partner is a skilled plasterer, who can turn her hand to most building tasks. My other sister was married to a farmer.
Between them they have 7 kids, aged 17 down to 6. The oldest 2 would likely stay in the UK for college, and live with my other sister who won't travel.
Mum has wanted to move to Spain for many years, but Dad wasn't keen. Dad passed away 4 months ago, so Mum is now up for a move to France. Her house is worth about £350k, but there is an equity release mortgage of around £120k.
I have a brother, but he has shut himself off from the rest of the family. It's got worse since Dad died. He hasn't visited Mum since the funeral. He owns a house, and has a decent amount of savings.
We are looking into the possibility of buying a large property with room for all of us to have our own accommodation. Maybe a country house complex with some gites, or barns that could be converted into gites. Plenty out there for £300 to £400k. Enough space for us to live together, but with our own front doors, and get some rental income. On the surface, it seems doable.
There are some implications for inheritance in the future though. Mum's will currently leaves her estate to be split equally between the 5 of us, and none of us want to "diddle" my brother and one sister out of their share when the time comes (Mum is 80).
What's the best way to plan this so that it's fair to everyone, while minimising any tax and inheritance implications?
I should add that, if things stay as they are (not moving to France), the chances are that there will be nothing left to inherit, as the equity release mortgage is eroding the money left in Mum's house, and care home fees will likely take care of the rest. If we all move, the "contract" with my sisters would be that they take care of Mum when she needs it, and also me when my my time comes.
I have no kids, ex wife isn't in my will, so my estate will pass to my siblings or nephews/nieces.
I'm afraid this might be one of those areas where Brexit complicates matters.
In the past if you owned real estate in France, you would have been subject to the Napoleonic Code regarding inheritance and would have needed a French will. The rules on beneficiaries are quite strict and, in particular, can leave a widow(er) with far less than she/he was expecting or needs.
There had been moves to allow an EU national to nominate the country which inheritance laws he wanted to apply to resolve the estate. I cannot recall if those changes have come into force or if they will be put on hold or will simply not apply after we leave the EU.
But this is surely a case where the only sane answer to give you is to consult an expert in both legal systems? I bought a house in Italy a while back and took extensive advice (and my wife and son are my only heirs).
Tax will also come into it, especially if you use devices like usufructs which HMRC treat with great suspicion.
Peter
In the past if you owned real estate in France, you would have been subject to the Napoleonic Code regarding inheritance and would have needed a French will. The rules on beneficiaries are quite strict and, in particular, can leave a widow(er) with far less than she/he was expecting or needs.
There had been moves to allow an EU national to nominate the country which inheritance laws he wanted to apply to resolve the estate. I cannot recall if those changes have come into force or if they will be put on hold or will simply not apply after we leave the EU.
But this is surely a case where the only sane answer to give you is to consult an expert in both legal systems? I bought a house in Italy a while back and took extensive advice (and my wife and son are my only heirs).
Tax will also come into it, especially if you use devices like usufructs which HMRC treat with great suspicion.
Peter
You need highly specialised advice from a legal firm that deals in French property and inheritance..
This firm helped us buy a French apartment and sort out the paperwork so Mrs AD's estranged brother can't get his hooks into it,
www.depinna.com/
This firm helped us buy a French apartment and sort out the paperwork so Mrs AD's estranged brother can't get his hooks into it,
www.depinna.com/
During Brexit negotiations has got to be about the worst time to make this decision. The simplest solution is to assume that Napolionic Code could well prevail.
However compared to the myriad of other decisions you will need to be making, it can easily be put on the back burner until March 2019. You could pay a lot of fees to a lawyer in the interim and still be wrong.
Do you all speak good French? Having been resident here for 12-years, this still remains a regular problem for us when we encounter new situations. It is as much about culture and knowing who to ask.
I doubt any enterprise will be looking to employ an English Plasterer and setting-up his own business will be very difficult.
Buying a farm will not be difficult; understanding why it is for sale wil be the key to understanding it's profitability.
Understanding the healthcare system for your mother will be important. Until you are paying Social charges and have top up insurance, you will not be able to receive free medication
Living in France is great, but it is not an easy option, compared to the UK.
However compared to the myriad of other decisions you will need to be making, it can easily be put on the back burner until March 2019. You could pay a lot of fees to a lawyer in the interim and still be wrong.
Do you all speak good French? Having been resident here for 12-years, this still remains a regular problem for us when we encounter new situations. It is as much about culture and knowing who to ask.
I doubt any enterprise will be looking to employ an English Plasterer and setting-up his own business will be very difficult.
Buying a farm will not be difficult; understanding why it is for sale wil be the key to understanding it's profitability.
Understanding the healthcare system for your mother will be important. Until you are paying Social charges and have top up insurance, you will not be able to receive free medication
Living in France is great, but it is not an easy option, compared to the UK.
Thanks for the replies. I guessed it might be a bit of a legal minefield, even without the added complication of Brexit.
We will be doing nothing (other than dreaming!) until at least this time next year, as one of my nieces is due to take a couple of her GCE's a year early.
My sister's partner is female, so there may be some novelty value in employing a female plasterer. It certainly works in this country. She is good at her job, and has a way with people. She spent a few years teaching building at the local college. My sister worked until recently as a special needs coordinator at the local primary school
I don't speak French, but can get by for driving and shopping. We would be relying on the kids until we get up to speed. My sisters are both in their 30's, so hopefully young enough to pick up the language. Some of the kids are exceptionally bright, and pretty outgoing. Half of them have IQs above 150, and seem to learn without even trying.
I wonder if it might be a good idea to invest some of the proceeds of the house sales into a small property in this country, keeping that as Mum's registered address? Our other sister could live there, "sharing" it with Mum, and we would come back a few times a year for family holidays.
We will be doing nothing (other than dreaming!) until at least this time next year, as one of my nieces is due to take a couple of her GCE's a year early.
My sister's partner is female, so there may be some novelty value in employing a female plasterer. It certainly works in this country. She is good at her job, and has a way with people. She spent a few years teaching building at the local college. My sister worked until recently as a special needs coordinator at the local primary school
I don't speak French, but can get by for driving and shopping. We would be relying on the kids until we get up to speed. My sisters are both in their 30's, so hopefully young enough to pick up the language. Some of the kids are exceptionally bright, and pretty outgoing. Half of them have IQs above 150, and seem to learn without even trying.
I wonder if it might be a good idea to invest some of the proceeds of the house sales into a small property in this country, keeping that as Mum's registered address? Our other sister could live there, "sharing" it with Mum, and we would come back a few times a year for family holidays.
Like bureaucracy, chauvinism is a French word.
In the UK, my wife was a Regional Director with 6000 staff, her pension dwarfs mine, but here she is just a named person on my tax return. Her name does not appear on any utility bill. A farm suggests a rural retreat, male unemployment in the country is huge, and there is very little self-employment. A female plasterer in Paris, may be in with a chance of employment, but probably not in the country.
12-years ago, I knew a guy who was returning to the UK, solely because his children could not get jobs. They were bilingual having lived in France from a young age and they had good qualifications, but nepotism is as rife in France as it is in the UK. Who you know is probably even more important that what you know.
Maintaining a UK address seems like a really good idea, but after Brexit, I doubt that you will be able to mask the location of your residency. Our status is likely to be very similar to Americans and other non-EU nationals.
In the UK, my wife was a Regional Director with 6000 staff, her pension dwarfs mine, but here she is just a named person on my tax return. Her name does not appear on any utility bill. A farm suggests a rural retreat, male unemployment in the country is huge, and there is very little self-employment. A female plasterer in Paris, may be in with a chance of employment, but probably not in the country.
12-years ago, I knew a guy who was returning to the UK, solely because his children could not get jobs. They were bilingual having lived in France from a young age and they had good qualifications, but nepotism is as rife in France as it is in the UK. Who you know is probably even more important that what you know.
Maintaining a UK address seems like a really good idea, but after Brexit, I doubt that you will be able to mask the location of your residency. Our status is likely to be very similar to Americans and other non-EU nationals.
Interesting that France is still male-centred. I wonder how they feel about gay women out in the sticks?
Probably best if we looked for a place within commuting distance of a largish town. Not exactly looking for a farm as such, more a place with a couple of hectares, enough for a smallholding for a degree of self-sufficiency. The main income would be from gite rental. Ideally looking for a place that's livable for all of us, with potential for adding value with a few years of hard graft.
The employment outlook for bright kids isn't brilliant in the westcountry either. There's a lot of graduates making a career in retail or leisure down here.
Probably best if we looked for a place within commuting distance of a largish town. Not exactly looking for a farm as such, more a place with a couple of hectares, enough for a smallholding for a degree of self-sufficiency. The main income would be from gite rental. Ideally looking for a place that's livable for all of us, with potential for adding value with a few years of hard graft.
The employment outlook for bright kids isn't brilliant in the westcountry either. There's a lot of graduates making a career in retail or leisure down here.
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