VW Transporter requiring new engine - What would you do?
Discussion
Hi All
Not very 'piston heady' but im keen to know some thoughts and perhaps experiences on the below.
i have a 2013 VW T5.1 Sportline. It has a known, and well documented design issue with its EGR cooler. It can't handle the intense heat of the gasses its trying to cool, so it corrodes inside the engine block. These metal particles within the oil then contaminate the whole block, particularly the cylinder walls, which are scored due to the particles and pistons rubbing together effecting sanding them. This then causes excessive oil usage as the piston rings are worn, to the point where it will require a litre of oil every 400 miles. Better explanation here : https://www.hypermiler.co.uk/volkswagen/vw-transpo...
ive owned the van from new, its on 80k, and ive had it serviced at every required interval at my local main dealer. To clarify the issue and to formalise it, VW do an oil weight test. They have done this to mine, and have agreed in writing the engine failed the test and a new engine and ancillaries are required due to the contaminated oil, and heavy oil consumption.
They have quoted £5.5k for the replacement engine including ancillaries to be fitted, but excluding Turbos (which i find odd, the turbos would surely require changing too!?). This is inclusive of a 30% contribution by Volkswagen UK, so the cost was over £7k before the deduction. I spoke to Volkswagen UK today and they have said the 30% is from the 'factory', and that it is up to the dealer if they want to contribute anymore. In my case, they have confirmed that the dealer refuses to contribute anymore than the 30% offered.
In short im at a bit of a loss. Of course, i'm not ungrateful in the fact that i am out of warranty by 4 years and ive been offered 30% to sort the problem out. But this is a clear design problem of the EGR valve, and im unsure why the consumer should be picking up any form of bill at all for it. Granted its out of warranty, but surely one would expect a commercial vehicle to be lasting longer than 80k miles (regardless of age) without needing a £7k engine replacement?
The fact my van has never changed hands, and i've serviced it at every interval at the main dealer, i do feel a bit hard done by. I have read a lot of people on the forums, including the dedicated facebook page for this issue, having far better contributions from VW (be it dealer or VW UK). From what the very arsey bloke i spoke to today suggested, was VW UK cannot 'make' a dealer contribute more than what the factory have offered to rectify the issue if they don't want to. So this suggests i could go to another dealer and get a completely different contribution (or none at all, granted).
Im just curious if there are any T5 owners on here who have suffered with the same issue. If not, perhaps a similar issue on another vehicle. I welcome any suggestions on my next step, or to suck it up and accept 30% is better than nothing. A small claims court might be an option.
For reference, VW have since changed the design of the EGR cooler on later vans. This tells they were aware of the issue. They also replaced 100+ engines for the Norweigan Ambulance Service which all suffered with the same issue. The problem seems to arrise from 60k miles onwards, hence why so many vans have fallen out of warranty before the issue has made itself known.
i appreciate all your input, and apologies for the lengthy post!
Not very 'piston heady' but im keen to know some thoughts and perhaps experiences on the below.
i have a 2013 VW T5.1 Sportline. It has a known, and well documented design issue with its EGR cooler. It can't handle the intense heat of the gasses its trying to cool, so it corrodes inside the engine block. These metal particles within the oil then contaminate the whole block, particularly the cylinder walls, which are scored due to the particles and pistons rubbing together effecting sanding them. This then causes excessive oil usage as the piston rings are worn, to the point where it will require a litre of oil every 400 miles. Better explanation here : https://www.hypermiler.co.uk/volkswagen/vw-transpo...
ive owned the van from new, its on 80k, and ive had it serviced at every required interval at my local main dealer. To clarify the issue and to formalise it, VW do an oil weight test. They have done this to mine, and have agreed in writing the engine failed the test and a new engine and ancillaries are required due to the contaminated oil, and heavy oil consumption.
They have quoted £5.5k for the replacement engine including ancillaries to be fitted, but excluding Turbos (which i find odd, the turbos would surely require changing too!?). This is inclusive of a 30% contribution by Volkswagen UK, so the cost was over £7k before the deduction. I spoke to Volkswagen UK today and they have said the 30% is from the 'factory', and that it is up to the dealer if they want to contribute anymore. In my case, they have confirmed that the dealer refuses to contribute anymore than the 30% offered.
In short im at a bit of a loss. Of course, i'm not ungrateful in the fact that i am out of warranty by 4 years and ive been offered 30% to sort the problem out. But this is a clear design problem of the EGR valve, and im unsure why the consumer should be picking up any form of bill at all for it. Granted its out of warranty, but surely one would expect a commercial vehicle to be lasting longer than 80k miles (regardless of age) without needing a £7k engine replacement?
The fact my van has never changed hands, and i've serviced it at every interval at the main dealer, i do feel a bit hard done by. I have read a lot of people on the forums, including the dedicated facebook page for this issue, having far better contributions from VW (be it dealer or VW UK). From what the very arsey bloke i spoke to today suggested, was VW UK cannot 'make' a dealer contribute more than what the factory have offered to rectify the issue if they don't want to. So this suggests i could go to another dealer and get a completely different contribution (or none at all, granted).
Im just curious if there are any T5 owners on here who have suffered with the same issue. If not, perhaps a similar issue on another vehicle. I welcome any suggestions on my next step, or to suck it up and accept 30% is better than nothing. A small claims court might be an option.
For reference, VW have since changed the design of the EGR cooler on later vans. This tells they were aware of the issue. They also replaced 100+ engines for the Norweigan Ambulance Service which all suffered with the same issue. The problem seems to arrise from 60k miles onwards, hence why so many vans have fallen out of warranty before the issue has made itself known.
i appreciate all your input, and apologies for the lengthy post!
I wouldn't be going the official route.
Two options as I can see - rebore, oversized pistons / rings.
Or, probably the cheapest option - a good engine from a write-off.
A couple of the VW magazines have adverts for recon. engines for all generations of vans, which could be a third option. They appear to be reputable and long-standing businesses.
Two options as I can see - rebore, oversized pistons / rings.
Or, probably the cheapest option - a good engine from a write-off.
A couple of the VW magazines have adverts for recon. engines for all generations of vans, which could be a third option. They appear to be reputable and long-standing businesses.
Landcrab_Six said:
I wouldn't be going the official route.
Two options as I can see - rebore, oversized pistons / rings.
Or, probably the cheapest option - a good engine from a write-off.
A couple of the VW magazines have adverts for recon. engines for all generations of vans, which could be a third option. They appear to be reputable and long-standing businesses.
I've had quotes from Darkside Developments and Resus VW, both specialists and no stranger to the issues. both quoted more or less the same price as VW for a used engine but including turbos. Two options as I can see - rebore, oversized pistons / rings.
Or, probably the cheapest option - a good engine from a write-off.
A couple of the VW magazines have adverts for recon. engines for all generations of vans, which could be a third option. They appear to be reputable and long-standing businesses.
Having an engine from a write off means i could end up back in the same position!
in any case my current block is not salvagable once it decides to die due to the level of contamination as far as im aware. The oil slamming around metal filings essentially acting as sand paper would have just scorn everything it comes into contact with.
We had a couple of egr valves go on our t5.1s, I think they just went into limp mode after a few miles , valves replaced no other issues ,
The design was shocking but I think you’ve just been unlucky with yours , as above id be getting a second hand unit (a newer one with the better egr) and replacing it for a few ks
The design was shocking but I think you’ve just been unlucky with yours , as above id be getting a second hand unit (a newer one with the better egr) and replacing it for a few ks
Engine blocks at reconditioners are dipped in a hot tank for 30 minutes to thoroughly clean all oil ways, this includes the crank and cyl head.
The bore scoring isn't out of the realms of a hone with these engines using oil.
Personally I'd have the engine stripped, cleaned, bore honed and new rings fitted.
Cylinder head, new valve stem oil seals and new standard size big end and main bearings fitted plus new oil pump.
The turbo can be assessed for wear.
This is a far better route than a used engine.
The bore scoring isn't out of the realms of a hone with these engines using oil.
Personally I'd have the engine stripped, cleaned, bore honed and new rings fitted.
Cylinder head, new valve stem oil seals and new standard size big end and main bearings fitted plus new oil pump.
The turbo can be assessed for wear.
This is a far better route than a used engine.
A1VDY said:
Engine blocks at reconditioners are dipped in a hot tank for 30 minutes to thoroughly clean all oil ways, this includes the crank and cyl head.
The bore scoring isn't out of the realms of a hone with these engines using oil.
Personally I'd have the engine stripped, cleaned, bore honed and new rings fitted.
Cylinder head, new valve stem oil seals and new standard size big end and main bearings fitted plus new oil pump.
The turbo can be assessed for wear.
This is a far better route than a used engine.
This would be the route I'd be takingThe bore scoring isn't out of the realms of a hone with these engines using oil.
Personally I'd have the engine stripped, cleaned, bore honed and new rings fitted.
Cylinder head, new valve stem oil seals and new standard size big end and main bearings fitted plus new oil pump.
The turbo can be assessed for wear.
This is a far better route than a used engine.
When the early 180bhp Bi Tdis were lunching engines, due to bore wash from failed regens, VW were back then, refusing to help customers outside of the warranty period. The solution then was a new engine, but they also insisted on replacing the cat/ DPF as those got trashed in the process. Good to see VW are still up to their usual tricks. I had a Caravelle with the 2.5 gear driven engine, way back. That too had horrendous problems,to the point that I have not touched VW with my money since.
I was wondering here if the vans actually used as commercials fail too, i.e. if they do lots of miles and run all day do they develop the same fault?
It is crap of course, should cope with all normal duty cycles. VAG’s mechanical penny pinching on development and lack of recalls would embarrass even Ford.
It is crap of course, should cope with all normal duty cycles. VAG’s mechanical penny pinching on development and lack of recalls would embarrass even Ford.
normalbloke said:
When the early 180bhp Bi Tdis were lunching engines, due to bore wash from failed regens, VW were back then, refusing to help customers outside of the warranty period. The solution then was a new engine, but they also insisted on replacing the cat/ DPF as those got trashed in the process. Good to see VW are still up to their usual tricks. I had a Caravelle with the 2.5 gear driven engine, way back. That too had horrendous problems,to the point that I have not touched VW with my money since.
Crap VW van engines go back to the D24, which cracked heads, as did the AAZ and AAB. I gave up on VW vans years ago.i always wondered why the manufacturers keep getting away with this type of thing. then i read the apathetic replies from people that are actually motoring enthusiasts and i understand.
given this is 100% design error resulting in something not being fit for purpose why aren't a group of owners taking vw to court ? the response from vw is the absolute worst type of customer piss taking, though no doubt compounded by one of the crap dealerships in this case.
given this is 100% design error resulting in something not being fit for purpose why aren't a group of owners taking vw to court ? the response from vw is the absolute worst type of customer piss taking, though no doubt compounded by one of the crap dealerships in this case.
Drive Blind said:
this is a bitdi ?
The replacement will eventually have the same issue? or do you fix the root cause of the problem during the rebuild?
It’s the egr, there’s an updated version that was fitted to the later 180’s, so if you choose to rebuild you must change the egr.The replacement will eventually have the same issue? or do you fix the root cause of the problem during the rebuild?
https://www.hypermiler.co.uk/volkswagen/vw-transpo...
The 204 can have egr faults too, resulting in coolant in the cyclinders and damaging the engine.
Bit of a nightmare these damn emissions devices.
Rozzers said:
I was wondering here if the vans actually used as commercials fail too, i.e. if they do lots of miles and run all day do they develop the same fault?
My understanding is that the EGR of most vehicles mostly functions at low engine loads, rarely at idle or high engine load.When thrashed by a courier with a full load of parcels in the back the engine load will be high most of the time and probably the EGR rarely used.
just thought i'd update this.
So far i've spoke to:
VW UK again - A manager wanted to confirm that the 30% ''good will gesture'' has no rhyme or reason to its build up, i.e in short, 30% has been plucked out of thin air and there is no educated build up to this figure. The dealer are able to claim back the 30% from VW UK, so the dealer gets their full £7k for the engine replacement.
Greenhous VW - These were the supplying dealer when i bought the van new in Shropshire. To be honest although i bought the van from them i've brought it to Wales so i didn't think they'd help me, and i was right.
Swansea VW - Service manager called me (as VW UK had called them to do so) to basically sympathise, but reiterate what VW UK were saying. Due to the age and mileage of the van they were not prepared to put their hands in their pocket to get that contribution any higher. (Fair enough to a degree - they didn't build the van, VW did, but how am i meant to ''build a relation'' with the dealer if they cant help me either?).
Within the same call, the service manager politely disagreed with my statement that although my van is running, its a ticking time bomb. He said at the end of the day it still works, but it'll just keep burning oil. I said if that's the case, can I come and part exchange it at your dealership, when your aware of the problem on the van, for something else? and he replied yes absolutely. Incredible. At the end of the day when it failed the oil test, VW have clearly put on the oil test results " Vehicle requires replacement engine". Just mad.. and contradictory.
to make matters even worse, Swansea VW have informed me that the 30% gesture of good will only lasts 4 weeks. 2 weeks have passed, so i have 2 weeks left. Very fair and reasonable of VW to expect a customer to find £5.5k within 2 weeks (4 even). Not everyone can do this.
VW Swansea is owned by the Sinclair Group. Im an exsiting Sinclair customer with my previous C63 and current E63s through Sinclair Mercedes Cardiff, but that didn't matter what so ever really.. i thought this would surely suggest i provide some sort of business and look to maintain relationships with the group but no chance.
Im at a proper loss now. VW UK suggested the Motor Ombudsman, and to perhaps raise a complaint within the Sinclair Group. But i cant help but think I'll just be pissing in the wind with it all and winding myself up even further.
So far i've spoke to:
VW UK again - A manager wanted to confirm that the 30% ''good will gesture'' has no rhyme or reason to its build up, i.e in short, 30% has been plucked out of thin air and there is no educated build up to this figure. The dealer are able to claim back the 30% from VW UK, so the dealer gets their full £7k for the engine replacement.
Greenhous VW - These were the supplying dealer when i bought the van new in Shropshire. To be honest although i bought the van from them i've brought it to Wales so i didn't think they'd help me, and i was right.
Swansea VW - Service manager called me (as VW UK had called them to do so) to basically sympathise, but reiterate what VW UK were saying. Due to the age and mileage of the van they were not prepared to put their hands in their pocket to get that contribution any higher. (Fair enough to a degree - they didn't build the van, VW did, but how am i meant to ''build a relation'' with the dealer if they cant help me either?).
Within the same call, the service manager politely disagreed with my statement that although my van is running, its a ticking time bomb. He said at the end of the day it still works, but it'll just keep burning oil. I said if that's the case, can I come and part exchange it at your dealership, when your aware of the problem on the van, for something else? and he replied yes absolutely. Incredible. At the end of the day when it failed the oil test, VW have clearly put on the oil test results " Vehicle requires replacement engine". Just mad.. and contradictory.
to make matters even worse, Swansea VW have informed me that the 30% gesture of good will only lasts 4 weeks. 2 weeks have passed, so i have 2 weeks left. Very fair and reasonable of VW to expect a customer to find £5.5k within 2 weeks (4 even). Not everyone can do this.
VW Swansea is owned by the Sinclair Group. Im an exsiting Sinclair customer with my previous C63 and current E63s through Sinclair Mercedes Cardiff, but that didn't matter what so ever really.. i thought this would surely suggest i provide some sort of business and look to maintain relationships with the group but no chance.
Im at a proper loss now. VW UK suggested the Motor Ombudsman, and to perhaps raise a complaint within the Sinclair Group. But i cant help but think I'll just be pissing in the wind with it all and winding myself up even further.
Edited by irfan1712 on Thursday 12th November 15:29
I'd get a recon, the van is too old to warrant a new engine at £5k+.
How about a recon, something like this - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-0-Transporter-Engine-...
How about a recon, something like this - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-0-Transporter-Engine-...
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