Jenson Button's last race win
Discussion
Don't know about you but I'm increasingly fed up with the continual hype about Jenson Button, a man who has yet to prove what he can do at the top level.
Here are some of the bare facts that the press seem to have forgotten.
Button's almost completed 100 grand prix's now:
Fasted laps - none
Wins - none
Buttons last race win: 1999 in F3.
He did one year in F3 and only came 3rd in the British Championship (beaten by Mark Hynes (1st) and Luciano Burti, 2nd).
Last championship win - 1998 Formula Ford Championship (thats 1600 cc entry level single seaters).
An interesting F1 stat might be how often he's simply let other drivers by without any sort of resistance.
So, other than three F3 wins 6 years ago he's not actually proved himself at the higher levels of the sport, and yet the F1 teams are fighting over his services for next year.
You can go a long way if you create enough hype!
Here are some of the bare facts that the press seem to have forgotten.
Button's almost completed 100 grand prix's now:
Fasted laps - none
Wins - none
Buttons last race win: 1999 in F3.
He did one year in F3 and only came 3rd in the British Championship (beaten by Mark Hynes (1st) and Luciano Burti, 2nd).
Last championship win - 1998 Formula Ford Championship (thats 1600 cc entry level single seaters).
An interesting F1 stat might be how often he's simply let other drivers by without any sort of resistance.
So, other than three F3 wins 6 years ago he's not actually proved himself at the higher levels of the sport, and yet the F1 teams are fighting over his services for next year.
You can go a long way if you create enough hype!
Thank God Colin Chapman didn't take your advice when he signed up Nigel Mansell, or that Frank Williams didn't pick up the 'phone to you for advice when he had the chance of taking Mansell away from Lotus...or that Frank Williams didn't have a pint with you to discuss whether he should offer Damon Hill that number 2 berth at Williams in 1993...
Many drivers seem to fail to deliver when they arrive in F1. Sometimes its through genuine lack of talent, sometimes its due to failure to adapt to the peculiatities of F1 racing (which is often quite different to what the drivers have experienced before) and sometimes its down to bad luck.
The classic examples of this are Jean Alesi and Martin Brundle.
Mansell is a bit different. He was always a potential winner and I have no doubt he would have been winning GPs at Lotus if Chapman hadn't died (and avoided jail if he'd lived)in 1982. As it was, he ended up in a team where he wasn't really wanted and was more or less rescued by Frank Williams in 1985.
The classic examples of this are Jean Alesi and Martin Brundle.
Mansell is a bit different. He was always a potential winner and I have no doubt he would have been winning GPs at Lotus if Chapman hadn't died (and avoided jail if he'd lived)in 1982. As it was, he ended up in a team where he wasn't really wanted and was more or less rescued by Frank Williams in 1985.
I thought Brundle had a big crash that seemed to slow him down? He seems to have been fairly unlucky with the cars he had too.
ITV have to hype up Button because he's british. He is the only reason we watch F1. Its like football innit, you gotta support the team from the place what you are from.
ITV have to hype up Button because he's british. He is the only reason we watch F1. Its like football innit, you gotta support the team from the place what you are from.
cant remember the final standings off the top of my head but the 1998 fford championship had some very good drivers in it and to call it entry level is a bit silly. it was at the time, costing top teams about £120K per season and races were often won by 1/10ths of a second. qualifying would see the top ten cars within a second of each other.
the 1999 F3 championship was very similar, dig out the championship standings and most will have gone on to other things in the higher echlons of motorsport.
yes he has yet to win an F1 race but Moss only won 17?! i;m not comparing Button to Moss but if you judge a driver on statistics alone it is not tellingthe whole story.
oh but then Button is British so its ok to knock him isnt it?!
the 1999 F3 championship was very similar, dig out the championship standings and most will have gone on to other things in the higher echlons of motorsport.
yes he has yet to win an F1 race but Moss only won 17?! i;m not comparing Button to Moss but if you judge a driver on statistics alone it is not tellingthe whole story.
oh but then Button is British so its ok to knock him isnt it?!
Moss' 17 wins only incudes World Championship F1 races. Moss drove in and won lots of non-F1 races plus loads of sportscar and saloon car races too.
In his last full season, he partcipated in over 60 races and won almost half of them.
Brundle had losts of big crashes but I wouldn't think any one of them had a bigger effect than any other. In F1 alone he had a big smash at Monaco in 1984 and he broke both his ankles at Detroit (I think). He also had that spectacular accident at the first GP in Melbourne in 1996.
In his last full season, he partcipated in over 60 races and won almost half of them.
Brundle had losts of big crashes but I wouldn't think any one of them had a bigger effect than any other. In F1 alone he had a big smash at Monaco in 1984 and he broke both his ankles at Detroit (I think). He also had that spectacular accident at the first GP in Melbourne in 1996.
Eric Mc said:
The classic examples of this are Jean Alesi and Martin Brundle.
Alesi simply let his heart rule his head and went and signed for Ferrari instead of Williams. I firmly beleive that if Alesi had signed for Williams, he could have won world titles in 1992, 93, 94, 95, 96 and 97. Obviously it's highly unlikely that he would have won all of those championships, but he would have had the potential. IMHO he's one of the great losses to F1, a man who was good enough to be one of the greats but was saddled with uncompetitive cars for his entire career.
Eric Mc said:According to the reference book, Moss won 16 F1 Championship races in 66 attempts. Clark won 25 in 72.
Moss' 17 wins only incudes World Championship F1 races.
Button to date has won zero in 100.
Not trying to knock anyone; Button's driving is beautiful, although he may lack what it takes to win a championship even in the right car. Those are, however, the numerical facts.
I think Formula Ford racing is night and day tougher than F1, but there's only so many F1 seats and not everyone can get into them.
Moss won 16 GPs from 66, IIRC. Some of those GPs were in a car that his family had bought and ran, just to get him into the scene. Some of those GPs were also when he was team-mate to the greatest driver on the planet at the time, and still regarded as possibly the best. During his GP career Moss raced against Farina, Ascari, Fangio, Hawthorn, Phill Hill, Graham Hill, Brabham, Clark, and Surtees. All champions, at one time or another. How many champions has Button raced, or Schumacher, come to that? Doesn't that list make the grids of the last decade or more look piss poor?
However, back then I'd say you didn't have F1 drivers as such, they were racing drivers. They'd compete in far more non-GP races. Moss did 58 races I think, in his last full season. I doubt that more than 10 of them were GPs.
His win rate overall was high, something like the high 30 percents. His podium rate was very high, I read it was 65% Thats from an era of very unreliable cars and very dangerous racing.
I think in '58 he won 4 GPs of the 8 that qualified for the world championship (50%). The title was won by the bloke who came second a lot.
I think Button drives beautifully, but yeah, you can't deny that his record is getting embarrasing. I think he's been very badly managed, which he has played a part in. I think he was distracted by his toys and money for a year or two. Had he not, he'd be one of Flavs boys now.
You can't turn the clock back...
>> Edited by heebeegeetee on Sunday 4th September 23:29
Moss won 16 GPs from 66, IIRC. Some of those GPs were in a car that his family had bought and ran, just to get him into the scene. Some of those GPs were also when he was team-mate to the greatest driver on the planet at the time, and still regarded as possibly the best. During his GP career Moss raced against Farina, Ascari, Fangio, Hawthorn, Phill Hill, Graham Hill, Brabham, Clark, and Surtees. All champions, at one time or another. How many champions has Button raced, or Schumacher, come to that? Doesn't that list make the grids of the last decade or more look piss poor?
However, back then I'd say you didn't have F1 drivers as such, they were racing drivers. They'd compete in far more non-GP races. Moss did 58 races I think, in his last full season. I doubt that more than 10 of them were GPs.
His win rate overall was high, something like the high 30 percents. His podium rate was very high, I read it was 65% Thats from an era of very unreliable cars and very dangerous racing.
I think in '58 he won 4 GPs of the 8 that qualified for the world championship (50%). The title was won by the bloke who came second a lot.
I think Button drives beautifully, but yeah, you can't deny that his record is getting embarrasing. I think he's been very badly managed, which he has played a part in. I think he was distracted by his toys and money for a year or two. Had he not, he'd be one of Flavs boys now.
You can't turn the clock back...
>> Edited by heebeegeetee on Sunday 4th September 23:29
Just to get in on the convo a bit. If i had the opportunities these guys had now i owuld definately be doing all the professional racing i could. F1 one day fly to sebring the next for Gt race. It would be fantastic. Hell i'd even dip in the rally racing and dakar when that came about. Drivers these days, most don't seem to love it like racers of the past, they are to money hungry now imho (some atleast).
To a large extent, modern F1 drivers have little say in when they can race. Their contracts tend to bar them from participating in other forms of motor racing. Of course, no-one forces them to sign these contracts but the lure of the riches of F1 is so great that most drivers are willing to sacrifice a "motor racing" career in favour of an "F1" career.
It's a kind of "Faustian Compact".
It's a kind of "Faustian Compact".
all good points, answer me this though, if Button was in the BTCC this year he would make the likes of Matt Neal and Tom Chilton look foolish would he not?
A fair few of the non F1 races that Moss won such as the saloon car races were hardly against the best drivers in the country...and they were also, certainly in the latter stages of his career, in a very competitive car.
all i am saying is records and the like mean nothing. sure they are a simple way of listing drivers but the likes of Peterson and Villeneuve (G) were genius behind the wheel yet won little more than a handful of GPs each..
A fair few of the non F1 races that Moss won such as the saloon car races were hardly against the best drivers in the country...and they were also, certainly in the latter stages of his career, in a very competitive car.
all i am saying is records and the like mean nothing. sure they are a simple way of listing drivers but the likes of Peterson and Villeneuve (G) were genius behind the wheel yet won little more than a handful of GPs each..
The answer is, we don't really know and we may never know. Drivers don't get the opportunity to truly display their talents these days. The only chance they get to try other formulae (apart from in their early careers) is when they eventually lose their F1 drive and then start scrabbling around to look for drives in GT, Le Mans, IRL, Champ Cars etc. By then, of course, they are usually considered to be past their peak - whether that is true or not - so it's hard to know whether we are looking at them when still at their best.
Moss' generation drove all these cars at the same time as they were at their "peak" so you do get a correct comparison of their skills. Also, the make up of ALL the races, driver wise, could be quite variable back then. Even some of the F1 races didn't always have all the best drivers partcipating.
It's just a very different era now with drivers much more tightly categorised into different series - with F1 being the most restrictive. In Moss' day, in order to make racing pay, drivers HAD to take part in as many events as possible. They were paid to RACE so they raced as often as they could. Modern F1 drivers are not paid to RACE, they are paid to DRIVE - which is quite different. They also earn substantial parts of their income from non-driving activities (sponsorship, public appearance etc) so the time available to take part in racing is extremely limited, notwithstanding the restrictions placed in their contracts.
Moss' generation drove all these cars at the same time as they were at their "peak" so you do get a correct comparison of their skills. Also, the make up of ALL the races, driver wise, could be quite variable back then. Even some of the F1 races didn't always have all the best drivers partcipating.
It's just a very different era now with drivers much more tightly categorised into different series - with F1 being the most restrictive. In Moss' day, in order to make racing pay, drivers HAD to take part in as many events as possible. They were paid to RACE so they raced as often as they could. Modern F1 drivers are not paid to RACE, they are paid to DRIVE - which is quite different. They also earn substantial parts of their income from non-driving activities (sponsorship, public appearance etc) so the time available to take part in racing is extremely limited, notwithstanding the restrictions placed in their contracts.
I agree with all that's been said, but let's look at the one series where we can see (ex) F1 drivers outside of F1 - the DTM. The success of Matthias Ekstrom and in particular Gary Paffett proves to me that the specialised nature of such series pretty much negates the undoubted abilities of the F1 drivers, even allowing for the fact that it takes them a season to acclimatise.
I don't think that Alesi has performed with any great credit,I'd accept the argument that HHF is not in a car that might best represent his talent (he was an outstanding sportscar driver after all) but I have been imressed with how quickly Hakkinen has got to grips with his car. Both Alesi and Hakkinen do of course have current spec Mercedes cars at their disposal.
For that reason, I'm not sure that Schumacher would dare to move to Mercedes - for me the only potential germ of truth on the rumours that he may switch from Ferrari to Mercedes is that he may well decide to retire from F1 and play with DTM....
Finally, I don't think Button would beat the top BTCC drivers - the cars are FWD for a start (yes, I know the Lexus isn't!) and he won't be used to the contact nature of the sport - he would be good at preserving momentum though
I don't think that Alesi has performed with any great credit,I'd accept the argument that HHF is not in a car that might best represent his talent (he was an outstanding sportscar driver after all) but I have been imressed with how quickly Hakkinen has got to grips with his car. Both Alesi and Hakkinen do of course have current spec Mercedes cars at their disposal.
For that reason, I'm not sure that Schumacher would dare to move to Mercedes - for me the only potential germ of truth on the rumours that he may switch from Ferrari to Mercedes is that he may well decide to retire from F1 and play with DTM....
Finally, I don't think Button would beat the top BTCC drivers - the cars are FWD for a start (yes, I know the Lexus isn't!) and he won't be used to the contact nature of the sport - he would be good at preserving momentum though
heebeegeetee said:
and they were also, certainly in the latter stages of his career, in a very competitive car.
Moss spent his last 3-4 seasons racing for a privateer (Rob Walker), don't forget, often in the previous years car.
But the way things have changed that would be the equivalent of racing in the cars from the last race now!
I can just see one of the current drivers turning to his team boss at Monaco and asking if they could take some of the panels off so he could keep a bit cooler ...
Eric Mc said:
It's just a very different era now with drivers much more tightly categorised into different series - with F1 being the most restrictive. In Moss' day, in order to make racing pay, drivers HAD to take part in as many events as possible. They were paid to RACE so they raced as often as they could. Modern F1 drivers are not paid to RACE, they are paid to DRIVE - which is quite different. They also earn substantial parts of their income from non-driving activities (sponsorship, public appearance etc) so the time available to take part in racing is extremely limited, notwithstanding the restrictions placed in their contracts.
One of the more interesting aspects of the recent Silverstone Classic was just how many races some of the driver took part in. In fact someone like Martin Stretton must have been utterly knackered by Sunday evening - he seemed to be driving in everything - or at least his helmet was out there.
I swear in some of the 1 hour, 2 driver races he was in two cars. Very competitive as well. Should've bought a program and then I would know. There were a couple of others who seemed almost equally omnipresent. Duncan Dayton for example.
LongQ said:
But the way things have changed that would be the equivalent of racing in the cars from the last race now!
No way! In 1960 they were still running front engined cars. By 62 they'd all gone. Colin Chapman, Jack Brabham, the Coopers etc, were changing things so rapidly you wouldn't catch your breath.
Was it '61 when the Walker equipe thought they had the latest Lotus, but then Chapman moved the goalposts on again with the first monocoque? Was that the year when it dawned on Porsche that they had just spent a whole year developing an obsolete car?
('Fraid memory is being replaced by stupidity...)
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