F1 and Traction Control
Discussion
From the onboard shots showing the rev, throttle, brake and TC displays...
I couldn't help but notice from some of the drivers that they seem to plant the throttle out of the chicanes at Monza and let the TC do all the work and not have any problem controlling the car. I know F1 should have access to all the latest technology, but this is just removing the drivers ability to use throttle control and make the cars look far too easy to drive! (1st gear, 800+ bhp, foot flat to the floor should see you spinning!) When are we going to see a return to no TC so we can really see what the supposed best drivers in the world can do??
Look at some of the current racing games such as GTR, if you have the driver aids on your considered an amateur!!
Cmon FIA, lets get these aids removed, slip streaming back, and back to better racing!
I couldn't help but notice from some of the drivers that they seem to plant the throttle out of the chicanes at Monza and let the TC do all the work and not have any problem controlling the car. I know F1 should have access to all the latest technology, but this is just removing the drivers ability to use throttle control and make the cars look far too easy to drive! (1st gear, 800+ bhp, foot flat to the floor should see you spinning!) When are we going to see a return to no TC so we can really see what the supposed best drivers in the world can do??
Look at some of the current racing games such as GTR, if you have the driver aids on your considered an amateur!!
Cmon FIA, lets get these aids removed, slip streaming back, and back to better racing!
That's why it'll be interesting to see just which of the "Playstation generation" will perform in a no-gadget F1 of the future.
Perhpas the most interesting element of Monza was ITV F1's in-car lap with Alonso - it very clearly showed just how much understeer he introduces by turning in so early to the apex of most corners.
Perhpas the most interesting element of Monza was ITV F1's in-car lap with Alonso - it very clearly showed just how much understeer he introduces by turning in so early to the apex of most corners.
It's all very well saying "ban it!" but how do you police it?
The reason the FIA now allow the teams to do it is because they couldn't tell for sure if the cars were running it or not.
The rumour goes that a certain team (that race in red and have a donkey as their mascot) were running a system that would delete the offending code everytime the car stopped.
This would probably also explain something pointed out to me recently: a) the fact that the shoemaker used to be considerably faster than his current team mate because b) he was the only car of the two on the grid who had a laptop plugged into his car right upto the start. When Schuey broke his leg, Irvine suddenly sped up - a lot.
The reason the FIA now allow the teams to do it is because they couldn't tell for sure if the cars were running it or not.
The rumour goes that a certain team (that race in red and have a donkey as their mascot) were running a system that would delete the offending code everytime the car stopped.
This would probably also explain something pointed out to me recently: a) the fact that the shoemaker used to be considerably faster than his current team mate because b) he was the only car of the two on the grid who had a laptop plugged into his car right upto the start. When Schuey broke his leg, Irvine suddenly sped up - a lot.
Such a suspicion cast a large shadow over Schumacher's World Championship in 1994/95. Benneton were certainly pushing the definition of the traction control ban at that time (as well as other matters - such as tampering with refueling rigs).
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Wednesday 7th September 08:05
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Wednesday 7th September 08:05
Mind you, it is interesting to note that Button approaches the exit of corners in a different manner. By being gentle on the throttle he acheives maximum acceleration without the intervention of TC, so while it is possible to just jump on the gas I doubt it is the best way to achieve quick lap times.
Eric Mc said:
Such a suspicion cast a large shadow over Schumacher's World Championship in 1994/95. Benneton were certainly pushing the definition of the traction control ban at that time (as well as other matters - such as tampering with refueling rigs).
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Wednesday 7th September 08:05
I thought that was a launch control system enabled by some *secret* sequence of button-pushing by MS...maybe they were using both LC & TC - surely not!
>> Edited by chim666 on Wednesday 7th September 20:42
I seem to vaguely remember something about a hidden option being found on one of the laptops used to configure the car on the grid. Something like the text of a menu option being removed from the selection, but the function still being fully accessible nevertheless. A quick Google reveals this...
www.grandprix.com/ft/ftdt028.html
... which describes an "Option 13" being used to allegedly activate TC on the '94 Benetton. However, it seems that they successfully defended the claim by wheeling out the old "it may be there but you can't prove we used it" defence.
IIRC, wasn't there a separate allegation about LC being activated by pressing the shift paddles in a specific sequence? That may have been another year though, or maybe I'm confusing this with the Option 13 claims.
Going slightly OT for a moment, they were certainly looking into everything - including the fuel rigs (removing filters). Wasn't that suspected to be the cause of the fire where they tried to barbecue Jos Verstappen?
[k]
www.grandprix.com/ft/ftdt028.html
... which describes an "Option 13" being used to allegedly activate TC on the '94 Benetton. However, it seems that they successfully defended the claim by wheeling out the old "it may be there but you can't prove we used it" defence.
IIRC, wasn't there a separate allegation about LC being activated by pressing the shift paddles in a specific sequence? That may have been another year though, or maybe I'm confusing this with the Option 13 claims.
Going slightly OT for a moment, they were certainly looking into everything - including the fuel rigs (removing filters). Wasn't that suspected to be the cause of the fire where they tried to barbecue Jos Verstappen?
[k]
fidgits said:
i still think bringing back a manual foot clutch and a 'H' pattern stick shift to F1 will solve all the current problems with lack of overtaking etc etc...
Manual gearbox, get rid of carbon brakes, bring back proper slicks, traction control can be policed by having all the ECU's sealed (can't have a single ECU because not all engines would be compatible with it).
That would reduce the costs and make the racing better.
Hardly bloody rocket science...
[quote=rubystone]Why can't you have a single ECU?
quote]
What I meant was that the ECU for (say) the Honda would be incompatible for the (say) Mercedes. If the FIA tried to introduce a single ECU that all manufacturers had to use, then I think it wouldn't work. However, if the ECU's were sealed, that *should* eliminate the temptation to tamper.
The other option would be to do away with ECU's completely and stick the buggers back on Weber carbs..
quote]
What I meant was that the ECU for (say) the Honda would be incompatible for the (say) Mercedes. If the FIA tried to introduce a single ECU that all manufacturers had to use, then I think it wouldn't work. However, if the ECU's were sealed, that *should* eliminate the temptation to tamper.
The other option would be to do away with ECU's completely and stick the buggers back on Weber carbs..
rubystone said:Hell why not give them wire wheels and solid rubber tyres while we're at it?
Why can't you have a single ECU?
How about alfin drum brakes too whilst you're all specifying F1 in the noughties?
A single ECU would amount to all the teams having the same engine. I mean FFS this is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport. Personally I have very little interest in what driver wins the GP, rather what team as a whole. Too much restriction and they might as well be racing in karts.
Speaking of LC, I am reminded of a technical rumour that abounds about a certain French team. Before the banning of launch control, some clever bloke at the team realised that the starting lights were controlled by radio and that it would be possible (hypothetically speaking of course) to intercept that signal and find out exactly when the lights would all go out. He might have then created a system linked to the LC (with a small "reaction time" delay built in) so that his teams cars always got good starts...
I seem to recall that the *entirely speculative* rumour was that the "auto launch" system worked off the jump-start sensor embedded in the track surface. As soon as it was deactivated (at the same time as the start lights going out), this was detected by the car's on-board systems, which then launched the car fully automatically.
Personally, I think the malaise in the tech regs goes much deeper than TC or driver aids generally. The current ruleset has become stale and far too restrictive. Indeed, in it's current iteration, F1 is no longer the cutting-edge technical showcase it once was. Consider the racing now, then back in the days of the Williams-Renault FW15's and 16s. OK, they themselves were a country mile ahead of everyone else, but behind them, the racing was closely fought and there was much more overtaking. That for me demonstrates that "gizmos" are not in themselves bad for racing.
I would like to see much more open design regs, preferably including some which reverse the current trend of each change further decreasing overtaking. It would also give the designers something proper to get their teeth into and make the cars & their technologies generally more interesting to the public. Additionally (and I'm blatently stealing this suggestion from someone else) if you made the engine regs fully free, but mandated that the race must be completed using a fixed maximum amount of fuel, that would also add real-world relevance and mix up the pack by teams going for different strategies.
The two taken together would really shake things up and differentiate the cars more from each other. Personally, I think this is just as important as driver skill and the key to making things more interesting.
[k]
Personally, I think the malaise in the tech regs goes much deeper than TC or driver aids generally. The current ruleset has become stale and far too restrictive. Indeed, in it's current iteration, F1 is no longer the cutting-edge technical showcase it once was. Consider the racing now, then back in the days of the Williams-Renault FW15's and 16s. OK, they themselves were a country mile ahead of everyone else, but behind them, the racing was closely fought and there was much more overtaking. That for me demonstrates that "gizmos" are not in themselves bad for racing.
I would like to see much more open design regs, preferably including some which reverse the current trend of each change further decreasing overtaking. It would also give the designers something proper to get their teeth into and make the cars & their technologies generally more interesting to the public. Additionally (and I'm blatently stealing this suggestion from someone else) if you made the engine regs fully free, but mandated that the race must be completed using a fixed maximum amount of fuel, that would also add real-world relevance and mix up the pack by teams going for different strategies.
The two taken together would really shake things up and differentiate the cars more from each other. Personally, I think this is just as important as driver skill and the key to making things more interesting.
[k]
I would like to know - what advancements in technology would make F1 racing more interesting to watch?
All this F1 cutting edge stuff makes me laugh. Whoever said it had to be so? It's not written in the FIA rule anywahere.
F1's problem is that it does not exist in isolation from other motor racing (although its participants often seem to behave as if it did). Any radical changes to the tech spec of F1 cars has to be made in the context of how it would reflect on F1 compared to other formulae.
In 1961 F1 cars underwent their most radical change ever and within four years they were no longer the "top end" form of motor racing. The sports governing body of the day realised that they had emasculated the deries too much and made further radical changes in 1966. We are still living in the consequences of those decisions made over 40 years ago.
All this F1 cutting edge stuff makes me laugh. Whoever said it had to be so? It's not written in the FIA rule anywahere.
F1's problem is that it does not exist in isolation from other motor racing (although its participants often seem to behave as if it did). Any radical changes to the tech spec of F1 cars has to be made in the context of how it would reflect on F1 compared to other formulae.
In 1961 F1 cars underwent their most radical change ever and within four years they were no longer the "top end" form of motor racing. The sports governing body of the day realised that they had emasculated the deries too much and made further radical changes in 1966. We are still living in the consequences of those decisions made over 40 years ago.
There's a fine line to be trodden between emasculating F1 and stuffing it so full of technology that the driver ceases to be relevant. With T/C I'd argue that we overstepping that mark - I do wonder how Massa would fare without the benefit of T/C - I guess he'd spend more time off the circuit than on it.
Of course a single ECU could be used - it has a primary purpose in all engines. Equally hydro-pneumatic valves could be banned to limit engine revs. These two elements don't impinge on the driver's ability to drive his car. Should we return to true "manual" transmissions? I'm not sure that they are so essential. I think we all agree that something needs to be done to permit overtaking - in terms of aerodynamic limitations
Of course a single ECU could be used - it has a primary purpose in all engines. Equally hydro-pneumatic valves could be banned to limit engine revs. These two elements don't impinge on the driver's ability to drive his car. Should we return to true "manual" transmissions? I'm not sure that they are so essential. I think we all agree that something needs to be done to permit overtaking - in terms of aerodynamic limitations
[quote=[k]ar|]I seem to vaguely remember something about a hidden option being found on one of the laptops used to configure the car on the grid. Something like the text of a menu option being removed from the selection, but the function still being fully accessible nevertheless. A quick Google reveals this...
<a href="www.grandprix.com/ft/ftdt028.html">www.grandprix.com/ft/ftdt028.html</a>
... which describes an "Option 13" being used to allegedly activate TC on the '94 Benetton. However, it seems that they successfully defended the claim by wheeling out the old "it may be there but you can't prove we used it" defence.
[k][/quote]
In his last few races, Ayrton Senna became convinced that the Benetton was using TC.
IIRC, in a practice session his car had broken down on track. Until that session was finished and he and car could be collected, Senna had to wait somewhere out on the circuit. From that vantage point he perceived the unique engine note/throttle pattern of the Benettons as they came past.
This issue became a serious cause for him from that time onwards.
That Benetton of course was the product of Ross Brawn, Michael Schumacher and Flavio Briatore - not that any of these noble men would have ever resorted to breaking the rules.
It's true that the FIA could not prove at the time that Benetton were cheating. If I have to choose between relying on Ayrton Senna's judgment and on that of the FIA, however, it's no contest.
>> Edited by flemke on Friday 9th September 11:17
<a href="www.grandprix.com/ft/ftdt028.html">www.grandprix.com/ft/ftdt028.html</a>
... which describes an "Option 13" being used to allegedly activate TC on the '94 Benetton. However, it seems that they successfully defended the claim by wheeling out the old "it may be there but you can't prove we used it" defence.
[k][/quote]
In his last few races, Ayrton Senna became convinced that the Benetton was using TC.
IIRC, in a practice session his car had broken down on track. Until that session was finished and he and car could be collected, Senna had to wait somewhere out on the circuit. From that vantage point he perceived the unique engine note/throttle pattern of the Benettons as they came past.
This issue became a serious cause for him from that time onwards.
That Benetton of course was the product of Ross Brawn, Michael Schumacher and Flavio Briatore - not that any of these noble men would have ever resorted to breaking the rules.
It's true that the FIA could not prove at the time that Benetton were cheating. If I have to choose between relying on Ayrton Senna's judgment and on that of the FIA, however, it's no contest.
>> Edited by flemke on Friday 9th September 11:17
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