Training in the building trades

[borcy]

https://news.sky.com/story/the-builder-shortage-ch...

This bit caught my eye. 'but nearly one in two (47%) do not finish their course. The dropout rate has risen sharply, up from 30% in 2014/15.'

This seems really high to me, anyone in the trades able to back this up or add any details to it?



The industry is on one hand saying they are crying out for people yet at the same time
'It means under 9,000 people a year finish their apprenticeship, one-fifth of the CITB estimate of the annual demand.'

Even at 100% pass rate there'd still be a big shortage, what bottlenecks are there or reasons to stopping training more people? Few decent people interested, training too expensive? Short term thinking?

[bitchstewie]

I think the article covers the primary reasons?

"A survey last year by the British Association of Construction Heads concluded the main reasons for dropping out included redundancies, firings, and low salaries."

[borcy]

bhstewie said:

I think the article covers the primary reasons?

"A survey last year by the British Association of Construction Heads concluded the main reasons for dropping out included redundancies, firings, and low salaries."

Yes like i said i was just wondering if people in the know had some personal experiences to add.

Just seems a really high drop off rate, even taking those into account

[Drumroll]

borcy said:

bhstewie said:

I think the article covers the primary reasons?

"A survey last year by the British Association of Construction Heads concluded the main reasons for dropping out included redundancies, firings, and low salaries."

Yes like i said i was just wondering if people in the know had some personal experiences to add.

Just seems a really high drop off rate, even taking those into account

Isn't that enough reasons?

[borcy]

Drumroll said:

Isn't that enough reasons?

Just seems odd to me in an industry that says its desperate for staff.

[Southerner]

Presumably many get p*ssed off with being paid the obligatory apprentice peanuts and being viewed essentially as cheap labour, and just go and get a job elsewhere?

[7mike]

Genuine question; if there's so much work and so few people to do it, why are redundancies even a thing in the industry?

[Earthdweller]

7mike said:

Genuine question; if there's so much work and so few people to do it, why are redundancies even a thing in the industry?

I think there's another way of looking at "firings" rather than "redundancies"

The latter suggests the work no longer exists, whilst the former suggests the apprentice isn't up to the work

[blueg33]

Earthdweller said:

7mike said:

Genuine question; if there's so much work and so few people to do it, why are redundancies even a thing in the industry?

I think there's another way of looking at "firings" rather than "redundancies"

The latter suggests the work no longer exists, whilst the former suggests the apprentice isn't up to the work

It’s a mixture. Too many trades have poor attitudes and just don’t care about the quality of the work.

The industry is always very vulnerable to macroeconomic issues and government meddling. Volume of building has dropped, costs have gone up. Quite a few contractors have gone bust leading to redundancy.

[matchmaker]

blueg33 said:

Earthdweller said:

7mike said:

Genuine question; if there's so much work and so few people to do it, why are redundancies even a thing in the industry?

I think there's another way of looking at "firings" rather than "redundancies"

The latter suggests the work no longer exists, whilst the former suggests the apprentice isn't up to the work

It’s a mixture. Too many trades have poor attitudes and just don’t care about the quality of the work.

The industry is always very vulnerable to macroeconomic issues and government meddling. Volume of building has dropped, costs have gone up. Quite a few contractors have gone bust leading to redundancy.

My experience of the building trade is that a lot of the problems are due to piss poor management. A good brickie or chippy does not necessarily made a good manager, or director.

[Vanden Saab]

Southerner said:

Presumably many get p*ssed off with being paid the obligatory apprentice peanuts and being viewed essentially as cheap labour, and just go and get a job elsewhere?

It is not peanuts. £250 for the 1st year, £350 for the second and £450 for the 3rd. All the while being trained for a career that pays very well. Compare that to the level of student debt by going to university. The main problem is that our school system does not teach these kids how to work. They come out of the school system unable to concentrate for any period of time and with no concept of doing a good job well so your first job as an employer is to retrain them in how to work.
Those who listen and adapt do well but many others fall by the wayside. Add to that that some are just not physically or mentally up to the job and the drop out rate is no surprise unless you think being a tradesman is an easy job that requires no special intellect or skill.
Take my trade of tiling as an example. You need to be physically strong enough to carry 25kg repeatedly including up stairs. You need to be good enough at math to be able to work out areas and loadings, lengths and height. You need to be able to imagine how the finished job will 'look'. Every tile needs to be checked for defects and you have to work within a tolerance of a 10th of 1mm all the time everytime. You need to understand which materials to use and why.
Once you can do all that you need interpersonal skills to work with other trades and the knowledge to know what you need them to do along with sales skills to sell yourself to your customers.
Once you can do all that you need to be able to quote prices accurately so you actually earn all that easy money. Or you could just go and work at McDonalds for minimum wage.

[Lotobear]

Vanden Saab said:

Southerner said:

Presumably many get p*ssed off with being paid the obligatory apprentice peanuts and being viewed essentially as cheap labour, and just go and get a job elsewhere?

It is not peanuts. £250 for the 1st year, £350 for the second and £450 for the 3rd. All the while being trained for a career that pays very well. Compare that to the level of student debt by going to university. The main problem is that our school system does not teach these kids how to work. They come out of the school system unable to concentrate for any period of time and with no concept of doing a good job well so your first job as an employer is to retrain them in how to work.
Those who listen and adapt do well but many others fall by the wayside. Add to that that some are just not physically or mentally up to the job and the drop out rate is no surprise unless you think being a tradesman is an easy job that requires no special intellect or skill.
Take my trade of tiling as an example. You need to be physically strong enough to carry 25kg repeatedly including up stairs. You need to be good enough at math to be able to work out areas and loadings, lengths and height. You need to be able to imagine how the finished job will 'look'. Every tile needs to be checked for defects and you have to work within a tolerance of a 10th of 1mm all the time everytime. You need to understand which materials to use and why.
Once you can do all that you need interpersonal skills to work with other trades and the knowledge to know what you need them to do along with sales skills to sell yourself to your customers.
Once you can do all that you need to be able to quote prices accurately so you actually earn all that easy money. Or you could just go and work at McDonalds for minimum wage.

Good post - you've said what I was going to say but much more eloquently.

There just doesn't seem to be the desire or hunger to graft and improve ones self with Gen Z or to take some short term pain or risk for the longer term benefit.

[Sheepshanks]

Vanden Saab said:

The main problem is that our school system does not teach these kids how to work. They come out of the school system unable to concentrate for any period of time and with no concept of doing a good job well so your first job as an employer is to retrain them in how to work.

The boss of the 15 man firm that did our extension / refurb said exactly that - kids don’t “get” work. Bearing in mind his own guys (many in their 60’s) only did about 4 hours of actual work per day, it’s a bit worrying if they couldn’t hack it even with him.

[Mont Blanc]

matchmaker said:

My experience of the building trade is that a lot of the problems are due to piss poor management. A good brickie or chippy does not necessarily made a good manager, or director.

Agreed.

This is a very British problem, and has been for decades. We take people who are highly skilled and technically competent off the tools. We then promote them to a supervisor, manager, or project manager position, or above, which they often either dislike, don't want to do, or are terrible at it, but can't turn it down because the salary is much better.

You end up taking the best of the skilled staff off the shop floor, and simultaneously end up with a whole management layer which have no idea what good management is supposed to look like.

Other countries like Germany have a very different approach to all this sort of thing. They place much more value on their most skilled people staying on the tools and pay them well, but involve them in decision making at senior levels, valuing their input.

Also on the topic of Germany:

Sheepshanks said:

Vanden Saab said:

The main problem is that our school system does not teach these kids how to work. They come out of the school system unable to concentrate for any period of time and with no concept of doing a good job well so your first job as an employer is to retrain them in how to work.

The boss of the 15 man firm that did our extension / refurb said exactly that - kids don’t “get” work. Bearing in mind his own guys (many in their 60’s) only did about 4 hours of actual work per day, it’s a bit worrying if they couldn’t hack it even with him.

"Germans are very productive despite their shorter workweeks. That is because when Germans are at work they work, and they should not be doing other things. Most Germans do not check Facebook or personal email or troll the internet for hours or gossip with coworkers. In fact, Germans have a zero tolerance among colleagues for these frivolous, non work related activities"

Can you imagine that being the case over here? I run a business that contains about 140 trades and about 30 support staff... The struggle is real.

Edited by Mont Blanc on Tuesday 4th February 08:45

[NerveAgent]

blueg33 said:

It’s a mixture. Too many trades have poor attitudes and just don’t care about the quality of the work.

The industry is always very vulnerable to macroeconomic issues and government meddling. Volume of building has dropped, costs have gone up. Quite a few contractors have gone bust leading to redundancy.

It just seems like such a horrific Wild West for the most part. A free for all of limited checks, often poor quality work and very questionable characters.

[MG CHRIS]

Lotobear said:

Vanden Saab said:

Southerner said:

Presumably many get p*ssed off with being paid the obligatory apprentice peanuts and being viewed essentially as cheap labour, and just go and get a job elsewhere?

It is not peanuts. £250 for the 1st year, £350 for the second and £450 for the 3rd. All the while being trained for a career that pays very well. Compare that to the level of student debt by going to university. The main problem is that our school system does not teach these kids how to work. They come out of the school system unable to concentrate for any period of time and with no concept of doing a good job well so your first job as an employer is to retrain them in how to work.
Those who listen and adapt do well but many others fall by the wayside. Add to that that some are just not physically or mentally up to the job and the drop out rate is no surprise unless you think being a tradesman is an easy job that requires no special intellect or skill.
Take my trade of tiling as an example. You need to be physically strong enough to carry 25kg repeatedly including up stairs. You need to be good enough at math to be able to work out areas and loadings, lengths and height. You need to be able to imagine how the finished job will 'look'. Every tile needs to be checked for defects and you have to work within a tolerance of a 10th of 1mm all the time everytime. You need to understand which materials to use and why.
Once you can do all that you need interpersonal skills to work with other trades and the knowledge to know what you need them to do along with sales skills to sell yourself to your customers.
Once you can do all that you need to be able to quote prices accurately so you actually earn all that easy money. Or you could just go and work at McDonalds for minimum wage.

Good post - you've said what I was going to say but much more eloquently.

There just doesn't seem to be the desire or hunger to graft and improve ones self with Gen Z or to take some short term pain or risk for the longer term benefit.

That pay is rubbish when the same generation can earn way more in other fields. My industry auto side has been on its ass right now struggling to recruit mainly down to poor conditions long hours and rubbish pay. Im 16 years into my career and only now on 30k a year. A job that requires me to provide 20-30k in tools to do my job im employed to do. Work in conditions from -2c to 30c+. Cars that are increasingly more complex along with more dangerous as well with push for bevs. The training is often patchy at best and the managers are fking useless in general.

Our company wants us a group of techs to do 280hrs of overtime in feb and march for a tiny £200 bonus if we hit it and time and half pay.

The level of stuff we need to know be able to fix repair diagnose along with increasing updates to new vehicles is frankly disgraceful that we on 30k for that level of work specially when labour charges is now well over £130 hour for most dealers.

This isnt about the same trope boomers like to bash the younger generation for being lazy its actually your fault for managing these industries to the way they are now. Do better is my advice and you may find people wanting to come back to the trades.

[Nomme de Plum]

Lotobear said:

Vanden Saab said:

Southerner said:

Presumably many get p*ssed off with being paid the obligatory apprentice peanuts and being viewed essentially as cheap labour, and just go and get a job elsewhere?

It is not peanuts. £250 for the 1st year, £350 for the second and £450 for the 3rd. All the while being trained for a career that pays very well. Compare that to the level of student debt by going to university. The main problem is that our school system does not teach these kids how to work. They come out of the school system unable to concentrate for any period of time and with no concept of doing a good job well so your first job as an employer is to retrain them in how to work.
Those who listen and adapt do well but many others fall by the wayside. Add to that that some are just not physically or mentally up to the job and the drop out rate is no surprise unless you think being a tradesman is an easy job that requires no special intellect or skill.
Take my trade of tiling as an example. You need to be physically strong enough to carry 25kg repeatedly including up stairs. You need to be good enough at math to be able to work out areas and loadings, lengths and height. You need to be able to imagine how the finished job will 'look'. Every tile needs to be checked for defects and you have to work within a tolerance of a 10th of 1mm all the time everytime. You need to understand which materials to use and why.
Once you can do all that you need interpersonal skills to work with other trades and the knowledge to know what you need them to do along with sales skills to sell yourself to your customers.
Once you can do all that you need to be able to quote prices accurately so you actually earn all that easy money. Or you could just go and work at McDonalds for minimum wage.

Good post - you've said what I was going to say but much more eloquently.

There just doesn't seem to be the desire or hunger to graft and improve ones self with Gen Z or to take some short term pain or risk for the longer term benefit.

It is not the schools responsibilty to teach what the parents should have been doing since the birth of their child.

It is nearly always the home environment where childhood problems start and the schools are expected to pick up the pieces.

A good teacher can inspire but cannot carry out miracles.

However it is a shame and a huge mistake that apprenticeships were considered second best and hollowed out. This was a huge mistake.
They should have been given the same status as improving the number of children going to university.

Sadly we remain a very undereducated nation missing much of the skills needed in this rapidly changing technological age. It is those with those skills that bring revenue into the UK without which we would not have the wherewithal to employ those tradespeople.

[Mont Blanc]

NerveAgent said:

blueg33 said:

It’s a mixture. Too many trades have poor attitudes and just don’t care about the quality of the work.

The industry is always very vulnerable to macroeconomic issues and government meddling. Volume of building has dropped, costs have gone up. Quite a few contractors have gone bust leading to redundancy.

It just seems like such a horrific Wild West for the most part. A free for all of limited checks, often poor quality work and very questionable characters.

There's a reason the trades call large scale housebuilding work 'house bashing'. They are literally just bashing houses together as quickly as possible with no concern for quality, just faster faster faster.

The good trades usually leave commercial housebuilding as they simply cannot bear to watch the absolute crimes against quality that go on. I have a few of them who work for me, and the stories they can tell me about building sites, and what they were instructed to do by supervisors or site managers is utterly terrifying. Makes me wonder how some of these houses haven't actually fallen down.

[Ian Geary]

Colleagues son in his mid 20s worked for a large house builder as manager of some sort.

He got ripped apart on the site - constant pranks and hazing, ignored or just insulted. I get that managing in itself is a skill, but there's probably a balance about who is best to manage skilled tasks like these.

I would have thought a system like the forces where senior enlisted get responsibility and pay to keep their team in shape?

From my point of view running an accountancy team, I advertise for a senior accountancy role that should say (but it can't) 5 years post qual experience.

Instead I get dozens of part qualified accountants who dropped out of their own training contract to chase a higher paying interim role, and then want me to finish training them whilst they get paid as if they've got the experience. Binned them all.

Maybe I was lucky? My training contract pay was ok to rent a room in a flat share, drive a shed and have beer money but I couldn't have supported a family on it.

I would expect apprentices to be in a similar boat, so I was surprised to read here the drop out rate is so high.

[Lotobear]

Nomme de Plum said:

Lotobear said:

Vanden Saab said:

Southerner said:

Presumably many get p*ssed off with being paid the obligatory apprentice peanuts and being viewed essentially as cheap labour, and just go and get a job elsewhere?

It is not peanuts. £250 for the 1st year, £350 for the second and £450 for the 3rd. All the while being trained for a career that pays very well. Compare that to the level of student debt by going to university. The main problem is that our school system does not teach these kids how to work. They come out of the school system unable to concentrate for any period of time and with no concept of doing a good job well so your first job as an employer is to retrain them in how to work.
Those who listen and adapt do well but many others fall by the wayside. Add to that that some are just not physically or mentally up to the job and the drop out rate is no surprise unless you think being a tradesman is an easy job that requires no special intellect or skill.
Take my trade of tiling as an example. You need to be physically strong enough to carry 25kg repeatedly including up stairs. You need to be good enough at math to be able to work out areas and loadings, lengths and height. You need to be able to imagine how the finished job will 'look'. Every tile needs to be checked for defects and you have to work within a tolerance of a 10th of 1mm all the time everytime. You need to understand which materials to use and why.
Once you can do all that you need interpersonal skills to work with other trades and the knowledge to know what you need them to do along with sales skills to sell yourself to your customers.
Once you can do all that you need to be able to quote prices accurately so you actually earn all that easy money. Or you could just go and work at McDonalds for minimum wage.

Good post - you've said what I was going to say but much more eloquently.

There just doesn't seem to be the desire or hunger to graft and improve ones self with Gen Z or to take some short term pain or risk for the longer term benefit.

It is not the schools responsibilty to teach what the parents should have been doing since the birth of their child.

It is nearly always the home environment where childhood problems start and the schools are expected to pick up the pieces.

A good teacher can inspire but cannot carry out miracles.

However it is a shame and a huge mistake that apprenticeships were considered second best and hollowed out. This was a huge mistake.
They should have been given the same status as improving the number of children going to university.

Sadly we remain a very undereducated nation missing much of the skills needed in this rapidly changing technological age. It is those with those skills that bring revenue into the UK without which we would not have the wherewithal to employ those tradespeople.

Not too much I disagree with in that.