Be ready to be shocked and offended at university...

[g3org3y]

BBC said:

Students should be ready to be shocked and offended at university, according to the man in charge of ensuring free speech on campuses.

Arif Ahmed, from the Office for Students (OfS), which regulates universities, told the BBC that exposure to views which students might find offensive was "part of the process of education".

It comes as the OfS published guidance for universities in England on how a new law, designed to protect free speech, will work when it comes into force from August.

Universities had requested clarity from the OfS on how to best uphold freedom of speech, after the University of Sussex was fined £585,000 for failing to do so in March.

The university was issued with the fine earlier this year under existing powers, after the OfS said its policy on trans and non-binary equality had a "chilling effect" on freedom of speech.

Link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74z8l8vkx3o

[Digga]

Good. Common sense, finally.

[chemistry]

Excellent.

[JagLover]

Intellectual enquiry and debate at a university , whatever next.

[Randy Winkman]

Yes - shouldn't really be necessary but it does look sensible.

[5 In a Row]

Quick question.

Why are kids getting to university age without having been 'shocked and offended' up to that point?

Are ALL parents of university bound kids living to Victorian values?

Isn't it about time parents took some responsibility for their children's upbringing?

[markh1973]

5 In a Row said:

Quick question.

Why are kids getting to university age without having been 'shocked and offended' up to that point?

Are ALL parents of university bound kids living to Victorian values?

Isn't it about time parents took some responsibility for their children's upbringing?

Nowhere does it suggest that - can you not have been exposed to some shock and offence without having been exposed to everything that you might find shocking and offensive.

[5 In a Row]

I think the bar for being shocked and offended needs to be raised somewhat.
Perhaps not back to Alf Garnett levels but higher than where it currently is.

[mwstewart]

The standard of living had become extremely high for us to reach this point.

[CT05 Nose Cone]

5 In a Row said:

Quick question.

Why are kids getting to university age without having been 'shocked and offended' up to that point?

Are ALL parents of university bound kids living to Victorian values?

Isn't it about time parents took some responsibility for their children's upbringing?

Or perhaps that they grow up in a society which is desperate to avoid any perceived or actual offence, like when the train company apologised for using the phrase "ladies and gentlemen", or why video games now only have body types A and B

[RDMcG]

How does one succeed in life without some level of native toughness? I have worked in a variety of countries and as a student did all sorts of factory work - even in union shops. Of course I do not condone racism or sexism but neither do I search for every slip or casual remark. I do think that university is just a part of life development and part of that it preparing for the competitiveness and tussle of the real world.

[Type R Tom]

Does it have something to do with what you are studying? I can't imagine that if you are doing mechanical engineering, for example, and turn up to lectures, maybe kick a ball around on a Wednesday afternoon, and then go home again, you will be exposed to anything shocking or offensive.

[2xChevrons]

Type R Tom said:

Does it have something to do with what you are studying? I can't imagine that if you are doing mechanical engineering, for example, and turn up to lectures, maybe kick a ball around on a Wednesday afternoon, and then go home again, you will be exposed to anything shocking or offensive.

When I was at university there was a certain level of offense/protest from some students in the faculty of Engineering because they objected to having mandatory humanities/ethics modules bolted on to their courses. Apparently the idea that those responsible for designing and delivering the built environment, infrastructure and transport technology of the future should have some broader insight into the people and society they'd be serving and not just viewing their work as a series of theoretical challenges, facts-n-logic problems or spreadsheet calculations was a bit shocking to them!

I did a social science within an arts faculty. I had a lot of my preconceived notions changed, my horizons expanded and my views/politics challenged (and changed). My appreciation and empathy for people, cultures, philosophies and viewpoints that I either knew little to nothing about or were entirely ignorant of even existing was grown and developed. I came out of university on quite a different mental and philosophical plane from when I went in. Which is surely the entire point.

But at no point can I ever remember being or feeling either shocked or offended. Even when having existing beliefs or ideas overturned or being (quite strenuously at times) challenged or being confronted with evidence that made me rethink what I thought were fairly immutable definitions. I suppose that could be 'shocking', in a certain definition of the word, but surely only in a positive sense.

On this policy/guidance specifically, my main concern is that it will be fairly and evenly applied. I hope it means that conservative/reactionary/right-radical students, intellectuals and groups are equally accepting of being 'shocked and offended' when academia produces analysis that challenges their ideas, breaks down their preconceptions, revises their cherished history or reevaluates one of their cherished figures.

[Crook]

2xChevrons said:

Type R Tom said:

Does it have something to do with what you are studying? I can't imagine that if you are doing mechanical engineering, for example, and turn up to lectures, maybe kick a ball around on a Wednesday afternoon, and then go home again, you will be exposed to anything shocking or offensive.

When I was at university there was a certain level of offense/protest from some students in the faculty of Engineering because they objected to having mandatory humanities/ethics modules bolted on to their courses. Apparently the idea that those responsible for designing and delivering the built environment, infrastructure and transport technology of the future should have some broader insight into the people and society they'd be serving and not just viewing their work as a series of theoretical challenges, facts-n-logic problems or spreadsheet calculations was a bit shocking to them!

I did a social science within an arts faculty. I had a lot of my preconceived notions changed, my horizons expanded and my views/politics challenged (and changed). My appreciation and empathy for people, cultures, philosophies and viewpoints that I either knew little to nothing about or were entirely ignorant of even existing was grown and developed. I came out of university on quite a different mental and philosophical plane from when I went in. Which is surely the entire point.

But at no point can I ever remember being or feeling either shocked or offended. Even when having existing beliefs or ideas overturned or being (quite strenuously at times) challenged or being confronted with evidence that made me rethink what I thought were fairly immutable definitions. I suppose that could be 'shocking', in a certain definition of the word, but surely only in a positive sense.

On this policy/guidance specifically, my main concern is that it will be fairly and evenly applied. I hope it means that conservative/reactionary/right-radical students, intellectuals and groups are equally accepting of being 'shocked and offended' when academia produces analysis that challenges their ideas, breaks down their preconceptions, revises their cherished history or reevaluates one of their cherished figures.

University is a generally a great environment in my experience for the points above, however (tongue slightly in cheek) I think it has less to do with what you're studying and perhaps when you are studying.

[ntiz]

5 In a Row said:

Quick question.

Why are kids getting to university age without having been 'shocked and offended' up to that point?

Are ALL parents of university bound kids living to Victorian values?

Isn't it about time parents took some responsibility for their children's upbringing?

Quite easy probably.

Most people carry their parents view points who most likely surround themselves and by extension you with people of the same life experiences.

Its quite easy to get to Uni without ever coming across someone with completely different view points who feels strongly enough to challenge your beliefs.

From my own experience I had never met a properly left leaning person until I arrived at university. I will confess it was a shock when I was accused of oppressing the working class when it came up that my family own a manufacturing company. I had to learn very quickly that there is a big chunk of society that views life in a completely different way to me.

[Type R Tom]

Crook said:

2xChevrons said:

Type R Tom said:

Does it have something to do with what you are studying? I can't imagine that if you are doing mechanical engineering, for example, and turn up to lectures, maybe kick a ball around on a Wednesday afternoon, and then go home again, you will be exposed to anything shocking or offensive.

When I was at university there was a certain level of offense/protest from some students in the faculty of Engineering because they objected to having mandatory humanities/ethics modules bolted on to their courses. Apparently the idea that those responsible for designing and delivering the built environment, infrastructure and transport technology of the future should have some broader insight into the people and society they'd be serving and not just viewing their work as a series of theoretical challenges, facts-n-logic problems or spreadsheet calculations was a bit shocking to them!

I did a social science within an arts faculty. I had a lot of my preconceived notions changed, my horizons expanded and my views/politics challenged (and changed). My appreciation and empathy for people, cultures, philosophies and viewpoints that I either knew little to nothing about or were entirely ignorant of even existing was grown and developed. I came out of university on quite a different mental and philosophical plane from when I went in. Which is surely the entire point.

But at no point can I ever remember being or feeling either shocked or offended. Even when having existing beliefs or ideas overturned or being (quite strenuously at times) challenged or being confronted with evidence that made me rethink what I thought were fairly immutable definitions. I suppose that could be 'shocking', in a certain definition of the word, but surely only in a positive sense.

On this policy/guidance specifically, my main concern is that it will be fairly and evenly applied. I hope it means that conservative/reactionary/right-radical students, intellectuals and groups are equally accepting of being 'shocked and offended' when academia produces analysis that challenges their ideas, breaks down their preconceptions, revises their cherished history or reevaluates one of their cherished figures.

University is a generally a great environment in my experience for the points above, however (tongue slightly in cheek) I think it has less to do with what you're studying and perhaps when you are studying.

In my mechanical course, there were no such modules (or if there were, they were so brief that I don't remember). Although we did have business studies, which was a tad dull. The rest of the course was crunching numbers with the occasional bit of practical work. What you describe as a broader understanding of the world has come more now in CPD, so maybe it's included nowadays. Mine was 20 years ago.

[Digga]

ntiz said:

5 In a Row said:

Quick question.

Why are kids getting to university age without having been 'shocked and offended' up to that point?

Are ALL parents of university bound kids living to Victorian values?

Isn't it about time parents took some responsibility for their children's upbringing?

Quite easy probably.

Most people carry their parents view points who most likely surround themselves and by extension you with people of the same life experiences.

Its quite easy to get to Uni without ever coming across someone with completely different view points who feels strongly enough to challenge your beliefs.

From my own experience I had never met a properly left leaning person until I arrived at university. I will confess it was a shock when I was accused of oppressing the working class when it came up that my family own a manufacturing company. I had to learn very quickly that there is a big chunk of society that views life in a completely different way to me.

In the final year of studying A-levels, my school mate had to re-sit his year and went at a nearby college. He got friendly with another lad, a year older, who was also re-sitting his.

This other lad had been at Sedburgh School and, long story short, had a huge piss-up for his 18th, to which he invted my mate and me. Me and my former school mate were from very ordinary middle class background. All the Sedburgh lot were calling us "the Kevins" and asking if we lived in council houses. I want not offended by that inference and, in any case, when those lightweight fannies had all passed out after 3 pints, they left more of the free bar for us.

[turbobloke]

With 80% of uk university lecturers self-identifying as Lefties, the situation isn't one of finely adjusting balance in the nature and extent of exposure to shocking and offensive thoughts, it's getting some remote semblance of balance in the first place.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/03/02/e...

80% is an average; the leftist groupthink in some HE institutions is already stifling freedom of expression and has been doing so for decades. The Left’s echo-chamber that there's no problem is plain wrong and is itself a symptom of the problem.

[tangerine_sedge]

turbobloke said:

With 80% of uk university lecturers self-identifying as Lefties, the situation isn't one of finely adjusting balance in the nature and extent of exposure to shocking and offensive thoughts, it's getting some remote semblance of balance in the first place.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/03/02/e...

80% is an average; the leftist groupthink in some HE institutions is already stifling freedom of expression and has been doing so for decades. The Left s echo-chamber that there's no problem is plain wrong and is itself a symptom of the problem.

This argument is like complaining that 80% of CEOs are 'righties'. All the righties went into corporate asset stripping and exploiting the workers/environment/each other for profit.

Academia is self selecting, as 'Righties' by default don't tend to remain due to the poor salaries and opportunity to act like dicks on offer...

[Ian Geary]

Firstly, it's good to see the labour government getting some positive recognition for their progress on this issue.

No one has been able to shoehorn "two tier Keir" into this thread as yet (apart from me just then).

Second, the issue (to me) isn't so much about students never being "shocked and offended" before per se, it means not being shocked and offended and then expecting everyone to treat it as some sort of war crime.


Shock and offence can be unnecessary- and i believe there are laws about causing offence.


I'm sure there was always highly polarised / charged political discussions taking place back when I was at uni.

But we didn't have professors being sacked, or any of the toxic social media behaviour we see nowadays on either side of contentious issues (ie the trans rights /woman's rights conundrum).

This is a common sense call that any grown up political party should be able to support - and Reform too.


On the topic of "lefties" (sigh) being over represented in teaching/ academia, to some extent it just reflects the personality type suited to that role in my view.

I see that at the council I work for- social care takes a particular kind of world view and mindset. Whatever the mindset is to go into sales, marketing, asset stripping i don't know, but they're probably better off away from vulnerable people.

By all means these "righties" can take a massive pay cut to do a hugely challenging job if they're *that* upset about it...