Planning for personal care costs
Discussion
I was talking to a friend the other day who's about 15 years younger than me, and his mum has just gone into a care home He was telling me the weekly costs and it's eye watering. Father is already passed, so he's just sold her home and will be using the proceeds from that. Got me thinking as she would only be a few years older than me and my wife 
Touch-wood, we're both in decent enough heath currently, but my wife has had a history of some bad health episodes, and I do stupid things for a pensioner - ride large motorcycles, ski too fast, windsurf etc., so you never know.
Ignoring the possible (and hopefully improbable) care issues, our two kids should inherit the family home, some rental properties, cars, bikes, and a wee bit of cash. And given I worked bloody hard for all this stuff I'd like them to actually get it. So if we had to go in to care at some point (or get a carer in), what (if anything) is ring fenced when whoever it is decides what you have to pay? If one of us requires care are assets of the other (like pensions, cars etc) looked at to be liquidated for the other's care? If not, then maybe we should buy another (non-depreciating, thus classic) car each, maybe putting it in the kids names?
As you may have guessed I have no real idea what happens with care costs, only I was a bit shocked that my friend is probably going to inherit sod-all at the end of the day, despite coming from a much wealthier background than me. Oh, and 'my friend' really is 'my friend' - both my parents died years ago and never went in to care so this is all new to me. And hopefully it will never happen, but since we talk about inheritance planning (which I probably haven't done the best job of anyway) it's something else to think about.
BTW we're in Scotland, so I expect we'll lose out even more than anywhere else in the UK
Touch-wood, we're both in decent enough heath currently, but my wife has had a history of some bad health episodes, and I do stupid things for a pensioner - ride large motorcycles, ski too fast, windsurf etc., so you never know.
Ignoring the possible (and hopefully improbable) care issues, our two kids should inherit the family home, some rental properties, cars, bikes, and a wee bit of cash. And given I worked bloody hard for all this stuff I'd like them to actually get it. So if we had to go in to care at some point (or get a carer in), what (if anything) is ring fenced when whoever it is decides what you have to pay? If one of us requires care are assets of the other (like pensions, cars etc) looked at to be liquidated for the other's care? If not, then maybe we should buy another (non-depreciating, thus classic) car each, maybe putting it in the kids names?
As you may have guessed I have no real idea what happens with care costs, only I was a bit shocked that my friend is probably going to inherit sod-all at the end of the day, despite coming from a much wealthier background than me. Oh, and 'my friend' really is 'my friend' - both my parents died years ago and never went in to care so this is all new to me. And hopefully it will never happen, but since we talk about inheritance planning (which I probably haven't done the best job of anyway) it's something else to think about.
BTW we're in Scotland, so I expect we'll lose out even more than anywhere else in the UK
Edited by tvrolet on Tuesday 1st July 14:45
worsy said:
The stock answer to this is "do you expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab for your care costs so your kids can inherit?"
It's a difficult moral space, however if your care requires an NHS element (Dementia etc) then it is covered by the local council. You need to fight for it.
Indeed. I suspect the 'correct' answer is to pass on any money to your children (or whoever) whilst you are still in rude health, and/or downsize your assests and spend it all on yourself in that same time frame.It's a difficult moral space, however if your care requires an NHS element (Dementia etc) then it is covered by the local council. You need to fight for it.
Truckosaurus said:
worsy said:
The stock answer to this is "do you expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab for your care costs so your kids can inherit?"
It's a difficult moral space, however if your care requires an NHS element (Dementia etc) then it is covered by the local council. You need to fight for it.
Indeed. I suspect the 'correct' answer is to pass on any money to your children (or whoever) whilst you are still in rude health, and/or downsize your assests and spend it all on yourself in that same time frame.It's a difficult moral space, however if your care requires an NHS element (Dementia etc) then it is covered by the local council. You need to fight for it.
tvrolet said:
our two kids should inherit the family home, some rental properties, cars, bikes, and a wee bit of cash. And given I worked bloody hard for all this stuff I'd like them to actually get it.
Why should the state pay for your exorbitant care home costs in order for your kids to receive an un-earned windfall? On behalf of the rest of us, do one.Another option is to setup your will in such a way that when anything happens to one of you their half of the assets are moved into a trust so that these are protected and even if the second person requires care there would still be a decent amount of inheritance left to pass on to the children.
With respect to the moral question personally I would rather everyone paid a little more tax and the state provided care to those who needed it rather than the inheritance lottery that currently exists based on if you are unfortunate enough to suffer something that needs longer term care which you have to pay for at a higher rate than the local authority at the same location as they get a bulk discount.
IMO the whole system and situation is a mess currently.
My view on this is different; it's less an unearned windfall the parents have likely made sacrifices to get themselves to the point that they have those assets. Why should the state pay for someone who instead of saving and making sacrifices to accumulate assets spends everything on, for example the latest phone, high end cars regularly and take their kids on big holidays?
Different people make different life choices and that's fine and results in different asset levels later in life. If they then need care they should in my view be treated equally, which means the state picking up a bill that's shared across taxpayers.
With respect to the moral question personally I would rather everyone paid a little more tax and the state provided care to those who needed it rather than the inheritance lottery that currently exists based on if you are unfortunate enough to suffer something that needs longer term care which you have to pay for at a higher rate than the local authority at the same location as they get a bulk discount.
IMO the whole system and situation is a mess currently.
Olivera said:
tvrolet said:
our two kids should inherit the family home, some rental properties, cars, bikes, and a wee bit of cash. And given I worked bloody hard for all this stuff I'd like them to actually get it.
Why should the state pay for your exorbitant care home costs in order for your kids to receive an un-earned windfall? On behalf of the rest of us, do one.Different people make different life choices and that's fine and results in different asset levels later in life. If they then need care they should in my view be treated equally, which means the state picking up a bill that's shared across taxpayers.
Edited by SunsetZed on Tuesday 1st July 15:47
Olivera said:
tvrolet said:
our two kids should inherit the family home, some rental properties, cars, bikes, and a wee bit of cash. And given I worked bloody hard for all this stuff I'd like them to actually get it.
Why should the state pay for your exorbitant care home costs in order for your kids to receive an un-earned windfall? On behalf of the rest of us, do one.bennno said:
The state effectively pays for nothing and this thread highlights the societal issues we face today. High taxes made worse by those unable / unwilling to support themselves, but also by those in a very comfortable financial position and with the financial means to support themselves seeking instead to hide, or transfer, wealth in order to place their financial burden on the broader taxpayer.
I like to call this ‘getting my own back’ for having given half of my salary away for years on end. I would 100% shaft the state in this situation if I felt I could. Would your children not prefer your wealth was used to provide the best level of care for you and your wife if required? Rather than maximising their inheritance while you receive a basic level of care in a state funded care home.
My parents wanted to put their house in my name about 10 years ago. It didn’t sit comfortably with me so I said no thanks. If I inherit anything in the future fine, if I don’t that’s also fine. I don’t see it as my money.
My parents wanted to put their house in my name about 10 years ago. It didn’t sit comfortably with me so I said no thanks. If I inherit anything in the future fine, if I don’t that’s also fine. I don’t see it as my money.
Edited by Chris Peacock on Tuesday 1st July 16:27
Just to quantify these costs for anyone who’s not aware:
My FiL died at the weekend after having been in a private care home for almost exactly one year.
His room was very similar to a Travelodge/Premier Inn room but about half the size, with a single hospital-type bed. He was on a restricted diet, but on the days when the kitchen forgot that or couldn’t be bothered, he was repeatedly offered tinned tomato soup and bread; this happened very frequently. His daughters ended up bringing food in for him on a weekly basis.
Towards the end he was on one of those syringe-driver things for pain relief. Twice this ran out without being checked and he was in significant pain until one of his daughters visited and alerted the staff.
On the day he died, MrsC arrived about 15 mins before he passed. At that time he was in his room on his own with the door shut; nobody was monitoring him although even to MrsC it was patently obvious that he was in his final moments.
The management team more than once started very sensitive and personal discussions in the reception area in earshot of other people. One morning when MrsC arrived (and the FiL was still alive), the manager of the home breezily called out from inside her office “have you decided which funeral home you’ll be using?”
I could go on…..anyway, the spend for this level of “care”, for one year, was a shade under £100k.
I’m not posting for discussions about complaining/managing the home, that’s for another day.
There’s someone here on PH who has a close association with care homes, he was really helpful several years ago when another family member needed a home, but I can’t remember his name.
My FiL died at the weekend after having been in a private care home for almost exactly one year.
His room was very similar to a Travelodge/Premier Inn room but about half the size, with a single hospital-type bed. He was on a restricted diet, but on the days when the kitchen forgot that or couldn’t be bothered, he was repeatedly offered tinned tomato soup and bread; this happened very frequently. His daughters ended up bringing food in for him on a weekly basis.
Towards the end he was on one of those syringe-driver things for pain relief. Twice this ran out without being checked and he was in significant pain until one of his daughters visited and alerted the staff.
On the day he died, MrsC arrived about 15 mins before he passed. At that time he was in his room on his own with the door shut; nobody was monitoring him although even to MrsC it was patently obvious that he was in his final moments.
The management team more than once started very sensitive and personal discussions in the reception area in earshot of other people. One morning when MrsC arrived (and the FiL was still alive), the manager of the home breezily called out from inside her office “have you decided which funeral home you’ll be using?”
I could go on…..anyway, the spend for this level of “care”, for one year, was a shade under £100k.
I’m not posting for discussions about complaining/managing the home, that’s for another day.
There’s someone here on PH who has a close association with care homes, he was really helpful several years ago when another family member needed a home, but I can’t remember his name.
Olivera said:
tvrolet said:
our two kids should inherit the family home, some rental properties, cars, bikes, and a wee bit of cash. And given I worked bloody hard for all this stuff I'd like them to actually get it.
Why should the state pay for your exorbitant care home costs in order for your kids to receive an un-earned windfall? On behalf of the rest of us, do one.
well it's not un-earned - I earned it, and paid tax on it, typically working 100+ hours a week. And so far the state has paid sod-all for my health care as I've paid privately for the relatively few procedures I've needed. And the tax I've paid when I was working would probably have covered a nurse or two each year for someone else who'd sat on their arse their whole 'working' life. So if I'd been idle and pissed my cash away on fags, booze and whatever else and generally had a pretty easy time of things then the state would cover my costs. That certainly sounds fair...Not sure if anyone has answered your actual question.
If you have assets under £21,500 (Scotland) then your care fees are paid for by the council (plus your own income), assets above £35,000 you get zero help.
Based on the assets you have listed you will have to pay for your own care. The average care cost in the UK is around £67,000 per annum getting closer to £80,000 for Nursing.
Someone has incorrectly said you can't give your assets away to the kids, as the council will come after them. This will only happen when someone intentionally reduces their assets to avoid paying for care or support services, then they can treat it like you still own the asset. If you get a diagnosis for something like dementia and then start giving everything away they will treat this as deliberate. If you do it now whilst you are in good health you will be fine.
If you have assets under £21,500 (Scotland) then your care fees are paid for by the council (plus your own income), assets above £35,000 you get zero help.
Based on the assets you have listed you will have to pay for your own care. The average care cost in the UK is around £67,000 per annum getting closer to £80,000 for Nursing.
Someone has incorrectly said you can't give your assets away to the kids, as the council will come after them. This will only happen when someone intentionally reduces their assets to avoid paying for care or support services, then they can treat it like you still own the asset. If you get a diagnosis for something like dementia and then start giving everything away they will treat this as deliberate. If you do it now whilst you are in good health you will be fine.
HH7777 said:
Not sure if anyone has answered your actual question.
If you have assets under £21,500 (Scotland) then your care fees are paid for by the council (plus your own income), assets above £35,000 you get zero help.
Based on the assets you have listed you will have to pay for your own care. The average care cost in the UK is around £67,000 per annum getting closer to £80,000 for Nursing.
Someone has incorrectly said you can't give your assets away to the kids, as the council will come after them. This will only happen when someone intentionally reduces their assets to avoid paying for care or support services, then they can treat it like you still own the asset. If you get a diagnosis for something like dementia and then start giving everything away they will treat this as deliberate. If you do it now whilst you are in good health you will be fine.
Many thanks - an actual answer. But as a couple, what happens with the family home where it's worth more than £21.5K and one still stays there (assuming care not needed)? Could they end up having to sell-up and move out to free the cash to care for the other? And again, as a couple what if one has a personal pension pot and it's the other that needs care (and vice versa) is that personal pension seen as a joint asset? Similarly other assets (I guess limited to cars and property) in one person's name, does that get taken into account for the other? If you have assets under £21,500 (Scotland) then your care fees are paid for by the council (plus your own income), assets above £35,000 you get zero help.
Based on the assets you have listed you will have to pay for your own care. The average care cost in the UK is around £67,000 per annum getting closer to £80,000 for Nursing.
Someone has incorrectly said you can't give your assets away to the kids, as the council will come after them. This will only happen when someone intentionally reduces their assets to avoid paying for care or support services, then they can treat it like you still own the asset. If you get a diagnosis for something like dementia and then start giving everything away they will treat this as deliberate. If you do it now whilst you are in good health you will be fine.
tvrolet said:
HH7777 said:
Not sure if anyone has answered your actual question.
If you have assets under £21,500 (Scotland) then your care fees are paid for by the council (plus your own income), assets above £35,000 you get zero help.
Based on the assets you have listed you will have to pay for your own care. The average care cost in the UK is around £67,000 per annum getting closer to £80,000 for Nursing.
Someone has incorrectly said you can't give your assets away to the kids, as the council will come after them. This will only happen when someone intentionally reduces their assets to avoid paying for care or support services, then they can treat it like you still own the asset. If you get a diagnosis for something like dementia and then start giving everything away they will treat this as deliberate. If you do it now whilst you are in good health you will be fine.
Many thanks - an actual answer. But as a couple, what happens with the family home where it's worth more than £21.5K and one still stays there (assuming care not needed)? Could they end up having to sell-up and move out to free the cash to care for the other? And again, as a couple what if one has a personal pension pot and it's the other that needs care (and vice versa) is that personal pension seen as a joint asset? Similarly other assets (I guess limited to cars and property) in one person's name, does that get taken into account for the other? If you have assets under £21,500 (Scotland) then your care fees are paid for by the council (plus your own income), assets above £35,000 you get zero help.
Based on the assets you have listed you will have to pay for your own care. The average care cost in the UK is around £67,000 per annum getting closer to £80,000 for Nursing.
Someone has incorrectly said you can't give your assets away to the kids, as the council will come after them. This will only happen when someone intentionally reduces their assets to avoid paying for care or support services, then they can treat it like you still own the asset. If you get a diagnosis for something like dementia and then start giving everything away they will treat this as deliberate. If you do it now whilst you are in good health you will be fine.
As I mentioned previously you should look into a will that creates a trust for assets on the passing of the first of the couple to protect half the assets (from care home, partner in the event of re-marriage etc.) if you want to give your children the best chance of inheriting as much as possible.
Only something like 4% of people go into care homes, and it’s usually for a fairly short period.
What’s more common is needing support at home. You might want to think about how adaptable your house is - as part of extending and refurbing ours we added a downstairs guest suite with wet-room, and made the door openings downstairs wider than normal.
What’s more common is needing support at home. You might want to think about how adaptable your house is - as part of extending and refurbing ours we added a downstairs guest suite with wet-room, and made the door openings downstairs wider than normal.
If your partner lives there, then the property is totally disregarded from the calculations. With regard to income, if you went into care and your partner stays in the house, they would ensure enough of the income is left to them to keep running the house. Any excess would be used for your care. All other assets are likely to be counted - if jointly owned, then half the value - e.g. £100k in a joint savings account they would assign £50k to you.
Pension pots that haven't been taken e.g. a personal pension with £100k in it belongs to the person whose pension it is and then counts.
Pension pots that haven't been taken e.g. a personal pension with £100k in it belongs to the person whose pension it is and then counts.
Edited by HH7777 on Tuesday 1st July 17:09
Is there any way to insure against these costs - pay a one off premium when you're still in good health (maybe when you are eligible for a tax free lump sum from a private pension) and the insurer pays these costs if and when you need them (as with any insurance some people will not need to claim at all and 'lose' and some will need care for a long time and 'win'). I read the mean amount spent on care home fees is about £45k so I'd imagine the amount would be of this order.
HH7777 said:
Not sure if anyone has answered your actual question.
If you have assets under £21,500 (Scotland) then your care fees are paid for by the council (plus your own income), assets above £35,000 you get zero help.
Based on the assets you have listed you will have to pay for your own care. The average care cost in the UK is around £67,000 per annum getting closer to £80,000 for Nursing.
Someone has incorrectly said you can't give your assets away to the kids, as the council will come after them. This will only happen when someone intentionally reduces their assets to avoid paying for care or support services, then they can treat it like you still own the asset. If you get a diagnosis for something like dementia and then start giving everything away they will treat this as deliberate. If you do it now whilst you are in good health you will be fine.
And that would be the case in point here - deliberately giving away assets to avoid paying for care or support services.If you have assets under £21,500 (Scotland) then your care fees are paid for by the council (plus your own income), assets above £35,000 you get zero help.
Based on the assets you have listed you will have to pay for your own care. The average care cost in the UK is around £67,000 per annum getting closer to £80,000 for Nursing.
Someone has incorrectly said you can't give your assets away to the kids, as the council will come after them. This will only happen when someone intentionally reduces their assets to avoid paying for care or support services, then they can treat it like you still own the asset. If you get a diagnosis for something like dementia and then start giving everything away they will treat this as deliberate. If you do it now whilst you are in good health you will be fine.
I dont believe it has to be linked to a sudden deterioration in health. Someone could sign over their house to their children, whilst healthy but of senior years, and then some years later need care.
There's also no specific time limit after which a transfer is automatically disregarded. The local authority can look back and assess whether the transfer was made with the intention of avoiding care costs, even if it was done years ago.
But if you have absolute evidence that that is not the case, i'm all ears.
purplepolarbear said:
Is there any way to insure against these costs - pay a one off premium when you're still in good health (maybe when you are eligible for a tax free lump sum from a private pension) and the insurer pays these costs if and when you need them (as with any insurance some people will not need to claim at all and 'lose' and some will need care for a long time and 'win'). I read the mean amount spent on care home fees is about £45k so I'd imagine the amount would be of this order.
Unfortunately, not anymore. These policies did exist, but very few people took them out so providers stopped offering them. The problem for all insurances like this are they are cheaper to take out when you are younger and less likely to take them out. When you actually need them you are older, in worse health and therefore they are expensive. Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff