Discussion
I generally drive cars of no more than 3 years old, and one of the enduring issues is wheel balance, once the manufacturers original tyres are replaced. I reecntly bought a pair of Conti Premium Contact 2's for my Audi, and it took 4 attempts to stop the tremor in the steering over 50 mph. Each time the tyre services said that the balance was out and subsequently 'corrected' this, only for me to find that it was still wrong. I actually had to pay another tryre services to re-balance my wheels which was then correct. I have experienced this before and my question is, why do some tyre services have so much trouble balancing normal 16" alloys with quality tyres fitted ?
Or is there a more sinister reason such as the wheels moving around on the rims in the first few hundred miles ?
Or is there a more sinister reason such as the wheels moving around on the rims in the first few hundred miles ?
Had a tvr wheel swapped on my Orig tyre (slight curb/wheel interfacing issue!) and he built up the weights near the visible side of the wheel and used a ton of them.
After I asked him to re-do but put the weights nearer the inside so they could not be seen, he only needed three peices!
Unfortunately it's all about the care they take and the experience they have in doing the job.
After I asked him to re-do but put the weights nearer the inside so they could not be seen, he only needed three peices!
Unfortunately it's all about the care they take and the experience they have in doing the job.
I was always told that a shudder less than 50mph was wheel balancing and any vibration above that was due to drivetrain, bushes, bearings, bodywork etc. I'm trying to eliminate heavy vibration from a banger of a mondeo, but hadn't considered wheels being out of balance as it comes on about 65 - 70mph.
when i was an apprentice i was told to put the alloy on the balance machine after i take the old tyre off this will tell you right away if the wheel is buckled or out of balance ,
then the new tyre will have a red spot on the sidewall this shows the fitter that the vavle hole should be aligned with the red spot . with a good tyre i.e. a conti or a p6000 the tyre should be balanced without the need for weights ( providing the bare alloy was true on the balancer )
however if the bare alloy shows that say 10g is needed at 6 o'clock to the valve then this should still be the case after thetyre is fitted providing it is fitted correctly
red spot to valve
then the new tyre will have a red spot on the sidewall this shows the fitter that the vavle hole should be aligned with the red spot . with a good tyre i.e. a conti or a p6000 the tyre should be balanced without the need for weights ( providing the bare alloy was true on the balancer )
however if the bare alloy shows that say 10g is needed at 6 o'clock to the valve then this should still be the case after thetyre is fitted providing it is fitted correctly
red spot to valve
I have a similar problem with my 17's. Seem to stay well balanced for only a short while, (without being whacked). Current tyres are nearly new and the last place I went to reckoned that the previous place had only attached clip-on weight to the lip of the rim, but with bigger wheels sticky weights in the inside should be used as well, (which I'd had previously anyway). Tyre services do seem to vary and bigger wheels seem very sensitive, with a fine tolerance. I find poor road surface can give shimmy effects too.
A good tyre machine does more than one plane, the place I use does anyway, and every single solid centre wheel I have had done there has been totally spot on afterwards!
It is a joke these days though, the place I use charges £10+vat per pair which I thought was steep until I went elsewhere recently and they are the same cost but not for a precision Hawejka balancer.
That said, I think some operators just can't use the simpler machines as I've never had problems in the past at a good local tyre fitters my brother used to work at for a while when younger! Seriously tempted to go thirds for a tyre balancing machine (already have a fitting machine due to increasingly shite service from tyre fitters) because they now seem to be balancing wheels even more expensively and crapper than before too
DIY is seriously the only way to get a job done properly these days!
Dave
It is a joke these days though, the place I use charges £10+vat per pair which I thought was steep until I went elsewhere recently and they are the same cost but not for a precision Hawejka balancer.
That said, I think some operators just can't use the simpler machines as I've never had problems in the past at a good local tyre fitters my brother used to work at for a while when younger! Seriously tempted to go thirds for a tyre balancing machine (already have a fitting machine due to increasingly shite service from tyre fitters) because they now seem to be balancing wheels even more expensively and crapper than before too
DIY is seriously the only way to get a job done properly these days!
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
...(already have a fitting machine due to increasingly shite service from tyre fitters) because they now seem to be balancing wheels even more expensively and crapper than before too
DIY is seriously the only way to get a job done properly these days!
I'm inclined to agree with you. What fitting machine do you have, how much was it, and how are you getting on with it? DIY is seriously the only way to get a job done properly these days!
)leorest said:
Mr Whippy said:
...(already have a fitting machine due to increasingly shite service from tyre fitters) because they now seem to be balancing wheels even more expensively and crapper than before too
DIY is seriously the only way to get a job done properly these days!
I'm inclined to agree with you. What fitting machine do you have, how much was it, and how are you getting on with it? DIY is seriously the only way to get a job done properly these days!
It's just a manual walk around lever jobby with compressor feed for the bead breaker and to pull the wheel down onto it's top.
You can use it DIY on stuff like 195/50 R15's, but with a helper (my brother and I do them) we've done upto 17's with 40's nicely enough.
We've also found that tyres balance alot nicer after manual fitting. I've fitted several full sets and not needed to balance them at all bar the very slightest transient background vibration at ~ 85mph once...
Machines can pull and stretch on the tyres if they are fitted in a hurry (so most places then). We are looking for a £250 ish phase3 jobby, just finding one local so we can pick it up. Go now and again on Ebay.
Not sure about balancing machines, will just have to see I guess. But as above, if the wheels are 100% straight and you fit them smoothly with plenty of soap, and don't go putting them upto 50psi to seat the bead they generally run fine with good tyres!
My brother worked at a tyre place and they often had competitions to fit tyres so they balanced up at 0, just it took them three times longer. And that was on 17's with low profiles etc. I say balancing is bodging up a bad fitting job or covering up for cheap/nasty tyres, or worst case a wobbly wheel!
Dave
Anything like one of these?
I did see a video showing a demonstration of wheel balance. Basically they had a wheel bolted to an electrically powered hub which was suspended by springs from a fixed frame. A laser pointer was mounted off of a non rotating part of the hub and any vibration could be seen by the pattern drawn on the wall by the laser dot. You get a vertical line if the wheel is bouncing up/down, a horizontal line if the wheel is shimmying left/right and an oval with a combination of the two. You can obviously spin the wheel at different speeds and see where the vibration is worst.
Obviously to use something like this to balance a wheel would require a great deal of experimentation but the quality of balance is directly proportional to the amount of time spent. Cheap and easy for home use but not quick enough for someone trying to make a living out of it! One day I plan to put my mad professor's cap on and and do some inventing
I did see a video showing a demonstration of wheel balance. Basically they had a wheel bolted to an electrically powered hub which was suspended by springs from a fixed frame. A laser pointer was mounted off of a non rotating part of the hub and any vibration could be seen by the pattern drawn on the wall by the laser dot. You get a vertical line if the wheel is bouncing up/down, a horizontal line if the wheel is shimmying left/right and an oval with a combination of the two. You can obviously spin the wheel at different speeds and see where the vibration is worst.
Obviously to use something like this to balance a wheel would require a great deal of experimentation but the quality of balance is directly proportional to the amount of time spent. Cheap and easy for home use but not quick enough for someone trying to make a living out of it! One day I plan to put my mad professor's cap on and and do some inventing
leorest said:
Anything like one of these?
I did see a video showing a demonstration of wheel balance. Basically they had a wheel bolted to an electrically powered hub which was suspended by springs from a fixed frame. A laser pointer was mounted off of a non rotating part of the hub and any vibration could be seen by the pattern drawn on the wall by the laser dot. You get a vertical line if the wheel is bouncing up/down, a horizontal line if the wheel is shimmying left/right and an oval with a combination of the two. You can obviously spin the wheel at different speeds and see where the vibration is worst.
Obviously to use something like this to balance a wheel would require a great deal of experimentation but the quality of balance is directly proportional to the amount of time spent. Cheap and easy for home use but not quick enough for someone trying to make a living out of it! One day I plan to put my mad professor's cap on and and do some inventing
I did see a video showing a demonstration of wheel balance. Basically they had a wheel bolted to an electrically powered hub which was suspended by springs from a fixed frame. A laser pointer was mounted off of a non rotating part of the hub and any vibration could be seen by the pattern drawn on the wall by the laser dot. You get a vertical line if the wheel is bouncing up/down, a horizontal line if the wheel is shimmying left/right and an oval with a combination of the two. You can obviously spin the wheel at different speeds and see where the vibration is worst.
Obviously to use something like this to balance a wheel would require a great deal of experimentation but the quality of balance is directly proportional to the amount of time spent. Cheap and easy for home use but not quick enough for someone trying to make a living out of it! One day I plan to put my mad professor's cap on and and do some inventing
Yep, thats the exact same one as far as I can tell. My brother bought it for about £100 locally 2nd or 3rd hand I think, and it does upto 17" stuff ok, though wouldn't like to go sub 40 profile and/or over 17"... however tyres like T1-S in 195/50R15 can almost be pushed on and pulled off the rim, wheras the Eagle F1 in the same size needs levers putting in to get it to stay on as you walk around ideally...
That balancing method sounds really nice. I bet it would result in really well balanced wheels. Like you say taking time on these jobs is a good idea, and I like to know my alloys/tyres have been lovingly cared for and not abused (well not off the car anyway
) even the better tyre places use upto 50psi and have the tyre exploding onto the bead as they seat them... most of the time I get about 15psi in and they seat nicely... gotta be better for the tyre and rim over time! Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 26th October 15:37
Found it! Have a look at this...
www.weightsaver.com/VIDEO/index.htm
The interesting bit is about three quarters of the way through so make a cup of tea while the bloke drones on about the benefits of "smartweight applying the tolerance differently" five times!
Also have a look at these training videos...
www.hunter.com/pub/product/training/videos.htm
bit of a different technique to what the monkeys at the tyre shop use! BANG WHOOSH!
www.weightsaver.com/VIDEO/index.htm
The interesting bit is about three quarters of the way through so make a cup of tea while the bloke drones on about the benefits of "smartweight applying the tolerance differently" five times!
Also have a look at these training videos...
www.hunter.com/pub/product/training/videos.htm
bit of a different technique to what the monkeys at the tyre shop use! BANG WHOOSH!
That Smart weight looks almost exactly the same as the place I've taken my solid centre'd Peugeot wheels in the past. They need a special Hawejka precision adaptor that bolts into the stud's, it also suggests weight and lateral location on the rim... often takes about three slow spin's to get it right. Never had a problem with their balancing either.
Wow, PAX looks alot more complex, but again the good place (that I thought expensive but now it doesn't seem so bad considering the prices other places are starting to charge) uses that same equipment for removal/fitting, though they just use the normal arm for tyre fitting/removal...
Will still use them for balancing I think, they are good considering now I think about it. Use spider bars for taking off the wheel studs, re-fit to an easy torque, then tighten with torque wrenches and check to table data! Wow, other places charging the same just crack on with the air-wrench...
Just seems 99% of places are cowboy joints these days, but charge like they are doing a proper specialist job
Dave
Wow, PAX looks alot more complex, but again the good place (that I thought expensive but now it doesn't seem so bad considering the prices other places are starting to charge) uses that same equipment for removal/fitting, though they just use the normal arm for tyre fitting/removal...
Will still use them for balancing I think, they are good considering now I think about it. Use spider bars for taking off the wheel studs, re-fit to an easy torque, then tighten with torque wrenches and check to table data! Wow, other places charging the same just crack on with the air-wrench...
Just seems 99% of places are cowboy joints these days, but charge like they are doing a proper specialist job
Dave
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