Mini Handling Characteristics
Discussion
Hello chaps, I posted the below a few days ago on Mini2, but didn't get many responses... At the time I thought I'd get a better response from Pistonheads, so here's hoping - basically I'm hoping that we can discuss the handling characteristics of the Mini, with people with much more experience than myself putting their oar in.
I've had a '54 plate Cooper S for about eight months now, coming from an '03 plate Ford KA, which I had for two years.
Both cars feel similar to drive - they're a similar size and the wheels are similarily placed. The KA always gave a bit more feedback and flowed slightly better, but the Mini feels much safer, has much less body roll and is obviously a much quicker car.
My main interest is the way the car acts on turn-in to a corner. The KA used to flow into corners in a clean, smooth way. If pressed, the front-end of the KA would take on a slight slip-angle, cured by gently lifting off. The Mini seems to chuck itself in, as if by the scruff of the neck. I think this is probably because of the lighter-steering and the sheer amount of front-end grip, but it just tucks in and goes - fast enough at times that it feels like my eyes can't keep up.
When turning into a corner in the KA, the rear-end always felt pinned down, but the Mini seems to take a small lateral shift... Like the car slightly revolves around me... It's strange and I always wondered what it was - do the tyres take on a small amount of slip, is it the sidewalls flexing, or is it a feeling generated by the placing of the driver (centre of the car), or the multi-link rear-suspension?
Once I'm actually turned-in, I keep my speed level to regulate the grip out between the tyres and not make any sudden changes - I got this from the IAM and it seems like a good technique. When I can see out of the corner, I then start to roll-on the power to pull myself out, and exit the corner.
With the 17" wheels, runflats and sport suspension +, the low speed ride is harsh, but I've noticed that up the pace a little and the whole thing flows over bumps much better! Is this something which happens with all similar set-ups?
I hit mud a few months back when turning in and the car ploughed straight on, straight as an arrow, in fact - so I presume this same feeling of understeer would happen if I just plain turned in too fast, or would the back-end start to go?
It's strange really, but unlike the KA, I never feel that I've reached the Mini's limits. It means that I don't know how far from them I am, or how hard they'll hit if they arrive!
Thanks for reading!
I've had a '54 plate Cooper S for about eight months now, coming from an '03 plate Ford KA, which I had for two years.
Both cars feel similar to drive - they're a similar size and the wheels are similarily placed. The KA always gave a bit more feedback and flowed slightly better, but the Mini feels much safer, has much less body roll and is obviously a much quicker car.
My main interest is the way the car acts on turn-in to a corner. The KA used to flow into corners in a clean, smooth way. If pressed, the front-end of the KA would take on a slight slip-angle, cured by gently lifting off. The Mini seems to chuck itself in, as if by the scruff of the neck. I think this is probably because of the lighter-steering and the sheer amount of front-end grip, but it just tucks in and goes - fast enough at times that it feels like my eyes can't keep up.
When turning into a corner in the KA, the rear-end always felt pinned down, but the Mini seems to take a small lateral shift... Like the car slightly revolves around me... It's strange and I always wondered what it was - do the tyres take on a small amount of slip, is it the sidewalls flexing, or is it a feeling generated by the placing of the driver (centre of the car), or the multi-link rear-suspension?
Once I'm actually turned-in, I keep my speed level to regulate the grip out between the tyres and not make any sudden changes - I got this from the IAM and it seems like a good technique. When I can see out of the corner, I then start to roll-on the power to pull myself out, and exit the corner.
With the 17" wheels, runflats and sport suspension +, the low speed ride is harsh, but I've noticed that up the pace a little and the whole thing flows over bumps much better! Is this something which happens with all similar set-ups?
I hit mud a few months back when turning in and the car ploughed straight on, straight as an arrow, in fact - so I presume this same feeling of understeer would happen if I just plain turned in too fast, or would the back-end start to go?
It's strange really, but unlike the KA, I never feel that I've reached the Mini's limits. It means that I don't know how far from them I am, or how hard they'll hit if they arrive!
Thanks for reading!
Wilburo said:
My main interest is the way the car acts on turn-in to a corner. The KA used to flow into corners in a clean, smooth way. If pressed, the front-end of the KA would take on a slight slip-angle, cured by gently lifting off. The Mini seems to chuck itself in, as if by the scruff of the neck. I think this is probably because of the lighter-steering and the sheer amount of front-end grip, but it just tucks in and goes - fast enough at times that it feels like my eyes can't keep up.
When turning into a corner in the KA, the rear-end always felt pinned down, but the Mini seems to take a small lateral shift... Like the car slightly revolves around me... It's strange and I always wondered what it was - do the tyres take on a small amount of slip, is it the sidewalls flexing, or is it a feeling generated by the placing of the driver (centre of the car), or the multi-link rear-suspension?
Once I'm actually turned-in, I keep my speed level to regulate the grip out between the tyres and not make any sudden changes - I got this from the IAM and it seems like a good technique. When I can see out of the corner, I then start to roll-on the power to pull myself out, and exit the corner.
With the 17" wheels, runflats and sport suspension +, the low speed ride is harsh, but I've noticed that up the pace a little and the whole thing flows over bumps much better! Is this something which happens with all similar set-ups?
I hit mud a few months back when turning in and the car ploughed straight on, straight as an arrow, in fact - so I presume this same feeling of understeer would happen if I just plain turned in too fast, or would the back-end start to go?
It's strange really, but unlike the KA, I never feel that I've reached the Mini's limits. It means that I don't know how far from them I am, or how hard they'll hit if they arrive!
Agreed that turn in is somewhat keen!! Put me off when i first drove one as it felt quite artificial initially. When turning into a corner in the KA, the rear-end always felt pinned down, but the Mini seems to take a small lateral shift... Like the car slightly revolves around me... It's strange and I always wondered what it was - do the tyres take on a small amount of slip, is it the sidewalls flexing, or is it a feeling generated by the placing of the driver (centre of the car), or the multi-link rear-suspension?
Once I'm actually turned-in, I keep my speed level to regulate the grip out between the tyres and not make any sudden changes - I got this from the IAM and it seems like a good technique. When I can see out of the corner, I then start to roll-on the power to pull myself out, and exit the corner.
With the 17" wheels, runflats and sport suspension +, the low speed ride is harsh, but I've noticed that up the pace a little and the whole thing flows over bumps much better! Is this something which happens with all similar set-ups?
I hit mud a few months back when turning in and the car ploughed straight on, straight as an arrow, in fact - so I presume this same feeling of understeer would happen if I just plain turned in too fast, or would the back-end start to go?
It's strange really, but unlike the KA, I never feel that I've reached the Mini's limits. It means that I don't know how far from them I am, or how hard they'll hit if they arrive!
IMO turn in understeer is the enemy in a mini, horrid horrid feeling and not much in the way of warning of it. Presumably due to the lack of give in the runflats.
Once turned in i've found mine to be nice and adjustable, either with the wheel or with the throttle. LSD provides frankly stupid levels of traction for a front driver and im not sure i like it. Seems quite aggressive.
killinginblack said:
IMO turn in understeer is the enemy in a mini, horrid horrid feeling and not much in the way of warning of it. Presumably due to the lack of give in the runflats.
Once turned in i've found mine to be nice and adjustable, either with the wheel or with the throttle.
Good comments, thanks. That's interesting about it being adjustable on the throttle, does it tighten the line on lift-off, or acceleration? Once turned in i've found mine to be nice and adjustable, either with the wheel or with the throttle.
I guess the LSD would make it do the second, whereas mine, with the standard diff, should only tighten on lift off.
DanGT said:
I race a standerd Cooper S (Sprint) the rear end does not come out easily in most cases you just get front end drift. I got good times from the start and found the handling very easy.
That sounds awesome! What does sprint involve?Edited by Wilburo on Thursday 19th February 11:31
Wilburo said:
killinginblack said:
IMO turn in understeer is the enemy in a mini, horrid horrid feeling and not much in the way of warning of it. Presumably due to the lack of give in the runflats.
Once turned in i've found mine to be nice and adjustable, either with the wheel or with the throttle.
Good comments, thanks. That's interesting about it being adjustable on the throttle, does it tighten the line on lift-off, or acceleration? Once turned in i've found mine to be nice and adjustable, either with the wheel or with the throttle.
I guess the LSD would make it do the second, whereas mine, with the standard diff, should only tighten on lift off.
There is a particular corner on my route home from work that rises up to just beyond the apex then drops away slightly.
Over the past few days it's been slick and damn good fun. Turn in nice and steady, power on before the apex then as the car begins to drift towards the outside lift off and feel the weight transfer around.
killinginblack said:
With the slippy diff it will tighten on either acceleration or lift-off. Quite un-nerving though using more throttle to tighten your line, goes against my natural instinct. Plus you seem to have to push through a little power-on understeer before the diff starts to divvy up the power.
Pushing through the understeer really does sound a bit unnerving! The LSD sounds like a great device though, really flexible in cancelling out understeer.killinginblack said:
Over the past few days it's been slick and damn good fun. Turn in nice and steady, power on before the apex then as the car begins to drift towards the outside lift off and feel the weight transfer around.
Yeah, that does sound good! I'll have to find some nice corners too Does anyone else get the feeling that the car is moving around your hips? It's weird, but there's definitely a lateral shift at the rear when I turn-in.
The car tucking in off the power is surely not the diff? That's just physics, ie the front regaining grip due to deceleration. Surely the diff only works under power.
As long as you don't lift off in a bend the back end of the car should not come round on a fwd car. Try it on a big wet roundabout, keep your toe in an feel the understeer build. Come off the throttle and you will feel the front tuck in (ie, the back come out a bit). Far safer than rwd oversteer moments!
I have also found the dunlop run flats are much better than the pirellis, where there is loads more understeer.
As long as you don't lift off in a bend the back end of the car should not come round on a fwd car. Try it on a big wet roundabout, keep your toe in an feel the understeer build. Come off the throttle and you will feel the front tuck in (ie, the back come out a bit). Far safer than rwd oversteer moments!
I have also found the dunlop run flats are much better than the pirellis, where there is loads more understeer.
Edited by Alpinestars on Thursday 19th February 15:29
Alpinestars said:
The car tucking in off the power is surely not the diff? That's just physics, ie the front regaining grip due to deceleration. Surely the diff only works under power.
Sorry - yes, I meant because lifting off moves weight to the front, while accelerating uses the diff.Alpinestars said:
Try it on a big wet roundabout, keep your toe in an feel the understeer build.
I'll give this a go sometime. Now must find a round about the right size...Yes, was going to suggest something similar.
Just control the throttle until you feel the understeer takes over.
I have to agree with your comments about the runflats and low speeds.
Its enough to make me want to bin the run flats completely.
What you will find is that the cars feel is very dependant upon tyre pressures.
The car feels better with 32psi all round IMO.
What are people running theirs at?
Just control the throttle until you feel the understeer takes over.
I have to agree with your comments about the runflats and low speeds.
Its enough to make me want to bin the run flats completely.
What you will find is that the cars feel is very dependant upon tyre pressures.
The car feels better with 32psi all round IMO.
What are people running theirs at?
Rags said:
What you will find is that the cars feel is very dependant upon tyre pressures.
The car feels better with 32psi all round IMO.
What are people running theirs at?
Good question - I certainly found this too. The car feels better with 32psi all round IMO.
What are people running theirs at?
When the pressure was slightly lower, I used to get tyre squeal and a slap from the traction control when pulling away. Boost them by a few psi and it's all roses - a world of difference.
I'll try 32.
when i first came from a godawful selection of Vauxhall's to a MINI in 2003 the handling alarmed me at first, it was very pointy and seemed alien to me... i think it is just alot better set up than i was used to
if the road is slippy (diesel spill) the car will just head straight on, however, i doubt you will ever be able to enter a corner too fast in the dry to repeat the effect... unless you are going FAR too fast...
if the front end does go, lift off and you get a tightening of the front end and lifting of the back of the backend which generally brings it back in to check...
plus, i've noticed the newshape has alot more grip and more predictable handling than the old shape.
if the road is slippy (diesel spill) the car will just head straight on, however, i doubt you will ever be able to enter a corner too fast in the dry to repeat the effect... unless you are going FAR too fast...
if the front end does go, lift off and you get a tightening of the front end and lifting of the back of the backend which generally brings it back in to check...
plus, i've noticed the newshape has alot more grip and more predictable handling than the old shape.
Ditch the runflats. What you're describing could almost be a word for word account of mine after having driven an R53 Cooper S Works on 18" runflats - both the One I had and my current Cooper on skinny non-runflat rubber are far purer, more progressive and feelsome in their steering responses.
Alpinestars said:
The car tucking in off the power is surely not the diff? That's just physics, ie the front regaining grip due to deceleration. Surely the diff only works under power.
Very much correct sir. I worded my post rather confusingly. What i meant was that mine will tighten up, up to a point, under power due to the diff and also when lifting off the throttle. Which is nothing at all to do with the diff.
Edited by killinginblack on Thursday 19th February 18:21
Just got a MCS and the handling is excellent, strangely it doesnt feel like a normal front driver (at least to me!), with very little understeer 
more frequent gentle/progressive 4 wheel drifts on the limit with an occasional oversteer on turn in 
The answer to that might be the dunlop run flats on the front and pirelli runflats on the rear 
Overall, its just monstrously good fun......
more frequent gentle/progressive 4 wheel drifts on the limit with an occasional oversteer on turn in The answer to that might be the dunlop run flats on the front and pirelli runflats on the rear Overall, its just monstrously good fun......SteA said:
more frequent gentle/progressive 4 wheel drifts on the limit with an occasional oversteer on turn in The answer to that might be the dunlop run flats on the front and pirelli runflats on the rear Overall, its just monstrously good fun......
What the... Well, this is exactly how it feels for me, too. I have the same tyre set-up, courtesy of the previous owner - could be the cause then. The answer to that might be the dunlop run flats on the front and pirelli runflats on the rear Overall, its just monstrously good fun......Would you describe the oversteer on turn in as a small lateral shift, or something else?
Wilburo said:
SteA said:
more frequent gentle/progressive 4 wheel drifts on the limit with an occasional oversteer on turn in The answer to that might be the dunlop run flats on the front and pirelli runflats on the rear Overall, its just monstrously good fun......
What the... Well, this is exactly how it feels for me, too. I have the same tyre set-up, courtesy of the previous owner - could be the cause then. The answer to that might be the dunlop run flats on the front and pirelli runflats on the rear Overall, its just monstrously good fun......Would you describe the oversteer on turn in as a small lateral shift, or something else?
rigsey said:
Ditch the runflats (essential) + not essential but I'd also recommend changing the heavy standard fit alloys (i.e. S-Lites) - the handling will be transformed
We like the handling in all honesty, its a fun, very controllable car. We have a 400 bhp 200sx to keep us entertained as well That being said, I am planning to change from runflats to F1 Asymetricals when the runflats are getting lower on tread, mainly to see the ride changes on badly potholed roads, but will also give many other benefits.Do you know by chance how heavy the S lites are?
900T-R said:
Ditch the runflats. What you're describing could almost be a word for word account of mine after having driven an R53 Cooper S Works on 18" runflats - both the One I had and my current Cooper on skinny non-runflat rubber are far purer, more progressive and feelsome in their steering responses.
Agree ditch the runflats, and if still not happy then go for a smaller wheel, as the car was actually designed to handle best on 16's than the larger wheels.Gassing Station | New MINIs | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff