Being threatened with "sack and no reference" if...

[Max Turbo]

Hi

My OH's brother has been sacked and told he will now get a bad reference because he does not take voluntary redundancy.

He is 18, has worked there for approximately 2 years and works (worked) for the good old golden archway, McDonalds.

He hasn't done anything wrong, has had no verbal or written warnings about anything etc.

Now obviously if they hire another to replace him tomorrow then things are a little more obvious, but I would appreciate any advice on what the next step should be, either me finding out more info or what the OH's brother should do next.

Is this legal or, as I think, slightly dodgy ground?

TIA

[Max Turbo]

He was given the choice between taking voluntary redundancy or being sacked and having a bad reference.

He got sacked. At the moment, info is a little thin on the ground but I hope to get some more background information this evening

[john_p]

Did he get any paperwork when he was sacked?

Did they tell him why he was sacked? Was it for refusing to take VR or was there some other reason he hasn't said about?

I think this should be amusing! Is it a franchise McDonalds?

[Matt172]

I didn't think you could be given a bad reference, only refuse to give you one?

[anonymous-user]

Firstly a 'Bad' reference is illegal...It has to based on factual evidence. If there is no factual evidence then the reference cannot be bad...If they refuse to provide a reference, again this is illegal..

If he doesn't take voluntary redundancy then they are suppose to assess the workplace and make people redundant depening on certain critria.

I would suggest your brother contacts ACAS, search Google, this is a free service. If he is made redundant there could be a case for constructive dismissal, but this would have to be assessed.

if he has been sacked, this need to be defined. He is entitled to this in written format..

Edited by The Loose Goose on Monday 29th June 19:09

[ShadownINja]

On the face of it, it sounds like he's on to a winner and the employer is an idiot if he thinks you can just sack someone because you want to Hollywood-style.

It's supposed to be a three stage thing: verbal, written and final warnings. As I understand it, failure to follow this (gross misconduct reasons excepted) can result in the employer losing at a tribunal.

You might find this useful:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ResolvingWo...

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyA...

I assume he had a contract of employment... and was not working unofficially...

Edited by ShadownINja on Monday 29th June 19:36

[Max Turbo]

OK, I have found out a little bit more information...

OH's brother went to wimbledon on thurs (day off), got back late and called in sick the next day. Boss called the house but he wasn't in, hence boss now assumes a fake sicky (which would be true...)

Boss calls him in to the office on the next shift and gives him the ultimatum - either you resign and I give you a good reference, or you don't resign and boss goes down the "performance criteria" marking them down to the point that he would get sacked.

OHs brother is all approved to join the RAF in August, the only thing in the way being references, which is what the boss is now referring to.

OHs brother felt that he couldn't risk the bad reference and reservedly resigned.

Subsequently, this is all being denied by the boss. Boss says that he just resigned, off his own back.

Now I know he shouldn't have skived the day off and it was a pretty stupid thing to do just before a reference is needed but generally he is a nice kid and has good intentions.

Understand completely if I get a mixed response to this thread, but just after some genuine information about his position and if there is any particular way this should all be handled

Thanks once again

[MiniMan64]

Sounds like a "his word against mine" situation which surely, is going to go no where.

[RichBurley]

There's always more to the story than first meets the eye.

He was sacked for taking the mickey. Voluntary Redundancy doesn't come into it.

[Max Turbo]

MiniMan64 said:

Sounds like a "his word against mine" situation which surely, is going to go no where.

Indeed. This is what I think too

[Firefoot]

When you say he reservedly resigned, do you mean he put something in the resignation letter to the effect that he felt he had no choice but to resign?

If so he has a potential to take this further.

If he just resigned then it really is his word against theirs. Without a witness, he doesn't have far to go with this one.

[Max Turbo]

RichBurley said:

There's always more to the story than first meets the eye.

He was sacked for taking the mickey. Voluntary Redundancy doesn't come into it.

I realise he shouldn't have taken the day off. If I was an employer, I would be pissed off too. But does this not also come under the "3 warnings" regulation?

The impression I get is that this is a convenient way to reduce the number of employees at a difficult time. Boss holds the reference over him as leverage to get him to resign, therefore negating the need to pay him any redundancy.

[Max Turbo]

Firefoot said:

When you say he reservedly resigned, do you mean he put something in the resignation letter to the effect that he felt he had no choice but to resign?

If so he has a potential to take this further.

If he just resigned then it really is his word against theirs. Without a witness, he doesn't have far to go with this one.

Unfortunately it is purely verbal. Like you and others have said, his word against the boss'.

[GT03ROB]

Tell him to forget it & put it down to experience.

Does he really think the RAF is going to be impressed if the full story comes out as it will do if he pursues the matter? Matters little what the law says what does he think the RAF will think about him skivving off?

[Rollcage]

I would imagine that this will be Gross Misconduct .Did he admit to pulling a sicky when questioned?
He should have said he was asleep and had the phone turned off.
If you are going to pull a sicky ,at least think it through - I dont think he has much to complain about as far as it goes !

(BTW ,I'm not sure it is illegal NOT to give a reference .A reference should just be a list of factual questions ,rather than an opinion - it carries no legal weight whatsoever)

[Firefoot]

Max Turbo said:

I realise he shouldn't have taken the day off. If I was an employer, I would be pissed off too. But does this not also come under the "3 warnings" regulation?

There is no legal right to 3 warnings. Most employers will follow a set disciplinary pattern of verbal, written, final written then dismissal. However, it depends on how serious the offense is. You can go straight to written for a first offense if the offense warrants it, or straight to dismissal if it is gross misconduct.

The test is whether the employer follows a fair process, and is the punishment given that which would be given by any reasonable employer.

[Max Turbo]

Thanks to everyone for their input

Think I am just going to advise him to soak it up, take a couple of months off before he joins up, and puts it down to experience.

Thanks again people

[Jasandjules]

Max Turbo said:

Thanks to everyone for their input

Think I am just going to advise him to soak it up, take a couple of months off before he joins up, and puts it down to experience.

Thanks again people

Hmm, he could take this further and then the company accepts his revocation of his resignation letter, then they sack him for gross misconduct?

[speedyman]

Even if your off work sick that does not stop you from going out of the house, you could be going to get medication or visit the doctor's.


Speedyman

[Orb the Impaler]

Wire him up with a recording device then get him to pop in for a "clarification" with is boss.

This is what I'd do, then I'd take them to the cleaners big-time.