Discussion
I usually take a feed from the last ceiling rose on circuit (with least cables). This feed would then go to new ceiling rose in loft space and switch wire would then be taken from there as usual from rose.
Or if you're not too clever/confident with wiring, you could use one of these?
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLLP05.html
Or if you're not too clever/confident with wiring, you could use one of these?
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLLP05.html
Edited by DeputyDawg on Friday 15th January 20:07
You may have a junction box in your attic somewhere that all your cables go back to.
If this is the case you wont be able to get a feed(live) and neutral from a ceiling rose.
Is it a new build your in or an older house?
It my be possible to take a Live & Neutral from a light switch upstairs by fishing down in to it, thats presuming you have neutrals there ( they will be joined in a bit of connector block )
Its all iffs and buts really until you know what way your house is wired.
If this is the case you wont be able to get a feed(live) and neutral from a ceiling rose.
Is it a new build your in or an older house?
It my be possible to take a Live & Neutral from a light switch upstairs by fishing down in to it, thats presuming you have neutrals there ( they will be joined in a bit of connector block )
Its all iffs and buts really until you know what way your house is wired.
I have done this a number of times and this is the closest thing on the internet to the method I have used. All my houses have been built since the 80's, and use a ring main in the loft. Make sure you do not pick up feeds off the landing light cos this is 2way switched and can cause issues. If you are not confident, I'd enlist some help to show you how for your first go - at least to draw you a diagram and identify what you have in the current circuit.
Putting it simply, you need to take a constant live feed from the ring to a switch - into little hole marked "COM". Take a switched live from the switch (from the L1 hole), and common and earth from the ring to the lamp fitting.
So, to get a switched live, take the feed out L1 of the switch to the switched live side of the lamp fitting. The common from the goes to the other side of the lamp fitting, and the earth connects to the earth plate at the lamp fitting. I always drop the switch just inside the loft hatch, somewhere I can reach it from the ladder, but also somewhere where it will not get damaged.
That is all you should need. But here is a little help on recognising what you have in the house from the good old internet.
PS - all in 1.5mm twin and earth please, clipped properly out of the way to the woodwork in the loft.
SWITCH THE JUICE OFF FIRST.
DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND AND FEEL CONFIDENT TO DO IT.
1) Check that your ceiling roses are wired with the 3-plate method - Have a look in them, you should see three sets of terminals (plus an earth terminal) - Each ceiling rose will have many cables going to it - if you only have one, this method will not work. The middle terminals should have red wires, the two outer ones (which feed the light itself) should have a black in each, one of which should have red sleeving on, (but this is often missing). These two outer terminals sets should also have the pendant/bulb holder connected to them.
2) Take a 1.5mm T+E cable from a ceiling rose to a switch box fixed to a joist in the loft. You will find that most or all of the roses will have three wires in, but the last light on the circuit should only have two - you will find it easier to wire it from this one if you can find it.
3) From this switch box, wire another 1.5mm T+E cable to the light fitting in the loft, and connect the light fitting to this.
4) In the switch box, connect the incoming and outgoing earths together to the earth terminal in the switch box, or if there is not one, into a 5 or 15A insulated connector block (don't forget to put green/yellow sleeving on the earth wires).
5) Connect both of the Neutrals together in the switch box into a 5A or 15A connector block.
6) Connect the incoming live (from ceiling rose) to the 'C' (or COM) connection on the switch.
7) Connect the outgoing live to the L1 connection on the switch (you may need to swap this to the L2 if switch appears upside down when you have finished).
MAKE SURE THE SUPPLY IS ISOLATED. In the ceiling rose you are picking up from, connect the earth to the earth terminal with the others. The live (going to COM in the switch) goes into the live terminal block - these are usually the centre terminals, with either two or three reds in. The Neutral goes into the Neutral terminal block - it should be one of the side terminal blocks, marked N and have a black wire in, and the blue pendant flex. Do not connect it into the one with the black wire that is sleeved red, and also has the brown pendant flex in. This is switched live.
The only thing to be wary of is that sometimes, sparks don't put red sleeving on the switched live in the rose, so it's not always clear which is switched live and which is neutral. If you want to check, get a neon screwdriver, switch the light on, and the switched live will light the neon, the neutral won't. If you get this wrong, the loft light won't work properly unless the light you have fed it from is on! You may also find when you turn the loft light on, the light you fed it from will come on dimly. If this happens, swap the neutral you put into the rose to the other side, with the other black wire.
Hope this helps, please be careful..
Putting it simply, you need to take a constant live feed from the ring to a switch - into little hole marked "COM". Take a switched live from the switch (from the L1 hole), and common and earth from the ring to the lamp fitting.
So, to get a switched live, take the feed out L1 of the switch to the switched live side of the lamp fitting. The common from the goes to the other side of the lamp fitting, and the earth connects to the earth plate at the lamp fitting. I always drop the switch just inside the loft hatch, somewhere I can reach it from the ladder, but also somewhere where it will not get damaged.
That is all you should need. But here is a little help on recognising what you have in the house from the good old internet.
PS - all in 1.5mm twin and earth please, clipped properly out of the way to the woodwork in the loft.
SWITCH THE JUICE OFF FIRST.
DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND AND FEEL CONFIDENT TO DO IT.
1) Check that your ceiling roses are wired with the 3-plate method - Have a look in them, you should see three sets of terminals (plus an earth terminal) - Each ceiling rose will have many cables going to it - if you only have one, this method will not work. The middle terminals should have red wires, the two outer ones (which feed the light itself) should have a black in each, one of which should have red sleeving on, (but this is often missing). These two outer terminals sets should also have the pendant/bulb holder connected to them.
2) Take a 1.5mm T+E cable from a ceiling rose to a switch box fixed to a joist in the loft. You will find that most or all of the roses will have three wires in, but the last light on the circuit should only have two - you will find it easier to wire it from this one if you can find it.
3) From this switch box, wire another 1.5mm T+E cable to the light fitting in the loft, and connect the light fitting to this.
4) In the switch box, connect the incoming and outgoing earths together to the earth terminal in the switch box, or if there is not one, into a 5 or 15A insulated connector block (don't forget to put green/yellow sleeving on the earth wires).
5) Connect both of the Neutrals together in the switch box into a 5A or 15A connector block.
6) Connect the incoming live (from ceiling rose) to the 'C' (or COM) connection on the switch.
7) Connect the outgoing live to the L1 connection on the switch (you may need to swap this to the L2 if switch appears upside down when you have finished).
MAKE SURE THE SUPPLY IS ISOLATED. In the ceiling rose you are picking up from, connect the earth to the earth terminal with the others. The live (going to COM in the switch) goes into the live terminal block - these are usually the centre terminals, with either two or three reds in. The Neutral goes into the Neutral terminal block - it should be one of the side terminal blocks, marked N and have a black wire in, and the blue pendant flex. Do not connect it into the one with the black wire that is sleeved red, and also has the brown pendant flex in. This is switched live.
The only thing to be wary of is that sometimes, sparks don't put red sleeving on the switched live in the rose, so it's not always clear which is switched live and which is neutral. If you want to check, get a neon screwdriver, switch the light on, and the switched live will light the neon, the neutral won't. If you get this wrong, the loft light won't work properly unless the light you have fed it from is on! You may also find when you turn the loft light on, the light you fed it from will come on dimly. If this happens, swap the neutral you put into the rose to the other side, with the other black wire.
Hope this helps, please be careful..
SeeFive said:
Putting it simply, you need to take a constant live feed from the ring to a switch - into little hole marked "COM". Take a switched live from the switch (from the L1 hole), and common and earth from the ring to the lamp fitting.
When you say ring main do you mean sockets or lighting?I'm sure your aware that you cant just take a feed from a ring main and put it in to a light switch
it would need to go through a FCU first. A switched one can be used and this in turn becomes the light switch.If you do "tap" straight of the ring you have a 1.5mm cable protected by a (presumably) 32A MCB which is dangerous & a potential fire hazard.
Edited by Raverbaby on Friday 15th January 22:29
Raverbaby said:
SeeFive said:
Putting it simply, you need to take a constant live feed from the ring to a switch - into little hole marked "COM". Take a switched live from the switch (from the L1 hole), and common and earth from the ring to the lamp fitting.
When you say ring main do you mean sockets or lighting?I'm sure your aware that you cant just take a feed from a ring main and put it in to a light switch
it would need to go through a FCU first. A switched one can be used and this in turn becomes the light switch.If you do "tap" straight of the ring you have a 1.5mm cable protected by a (presumably) 32A MCB which is dangerous & a potential fire hazard.
Edited by Raverbaby on Friday 15th January 22:29
ETA - that is exactly why I did not want to write the whole text myself. The wrong term can easily turn something simple into something dangerous.
Edited by SeeFive on Friday 15th January 22:36
RichB said:
Raverbaby said:
If you do "tap" straight of the ring you have a 1.5mm cable protected by a (presumably) 32A MCB
Light circuits in my house (built in 1984) are protected by 5 amp fuse, certainly not 32 Amps 
When someone says a ring main, to an electrical person it immediately means a socket ring main.
Lighting is not wired in "ring mains" only sockets, and ring mains are generally protected by a 30/32amp mcb/fuse.
So when someone says tap a lighting circuit directly off a "ring main" they'd be giving poor advice!
Edited by Raverbaby on Friday 15th January 22:36
SeeFive said:
Raverbaby said:
SeeFive said:
Putting it simply, you need to take a constant live feed from the ring to a switch - into little hole marked "COM". Take a switched live from the switch (from the L1 hole), and common and earth from the ring to the lamp fitting.
When you say ring main do you mean sockets or lighting?I'm sure your aware that you cant just take a feed from a ring main and put it in to a light switch
it would need to go through a FCU first. A switched one can be used and this in turn becomes the light switch.If you do "tap" straight of the ring you have a 1.5mm cable protected by a (presumably) 32A MCB which is dangerous & a potential fire hazard.
Edited by Raverbaby on Friday 15th January 22:29
ETA - that is exactly why I did not want to write the whole text myself. The wrong term can easily turn something simple into something dangerous.
Edited by SeeFive on Friday 15th January 22:36
Raverbaby said:
I would hope so!
When someone says a ring main, to an electrical person it immediately means a socket ring main.
Lighting is not wired in "ring mains" only sockets, and ring mains are generally protected by a 30/32amp mcb/fuse.
So when someone says tap a lighting circuit directly off a "ring main" they'd be giving poor advice!
Fair enough. Wrong term, right idea I guess. When someone says a ring main, to an electrical person it immediately means a socket ring main.
Lighting is not wired in "ring mains" only sockets, and ring mains are generally protected by a 30/32amp mcb/fuse.
So when someone says tap a lighting circuit directly off a "ring main" they'd be giving poor advice!
My lecs were learned from my dad too many years ago - who would reference a lighting ring and a socket ring as two separate entities in those days. I often wondered why I could not see a true ring in any of the lighting circuits I had workd on in my houses!
As mentioned above in my edit, that is why I did not want to write the whole thing out, but to find something that looked lie what I normally do - summarised it in my own (incorrect it seems) terms.
I do not like those lighty up screwdrivers by the way. Are they out of favour with the pros too?
Raverbaby said:
RichB said:
Raverbaby said:
If you do "tap" straight of the ring you have a 1.5mm cable protected by a (presumably) 32A MCB
Light circuits in my house (built in 1984) are protected by 5 amp fuse, certainly not 32 Amps When someone says a ring main, to an electrical person it immediately means a socket ring main.
Lighting is not wired in "ring mains" only sockets, and ring mains are generally protected by a 30/32amp mcb/fuse.
So when someone says tap a lighting circuit directly off a "ring main" they'd be giving poor advice!
RichB said:
SeeFive said:
I do not like those lighty up screwdrivers by the way. Are they out of favour with the pros too?
Go on then, as it's an important subject, why is this?http://www.screwfix.com/prods/56462/Hand-Tools/Det...
RichB said:
SeeFive said:
I do not like those lighty up screwdrivers by the way. Are they out of favour with the pros too?
Go on then, as it's an important subject, why is this?They have their uses I suppose as the general DIY'er wont have proper test gear to test for power.
The problem is they aren't too reliable as they rely on the user being the earth.
If they get damp or wet they would become very dangerous indeed!
I decent multimeter can be bought for under a tenner, this would be a more reliable tool to prove the circuit was "dead".
I wouldn't like to trust a 99p screwdriver with my life!!
Edited by Raverbaby on Friday 15th January 23:13
Meeja said:
RichB said:
SeeFive said:
I do not like those lighty up screwdrivers by the way. Are they out of favour with the pros too?
Go on then, as it's an important subject, why is this?http://www.screwfix.com/prods/56462/Hand-Tools/Det...
RichB said:
SeeFive said:
I do not like those lighty up screwdrivers by the way. Are they out of favour with the pros too?
Go on then, as it's an important subject, why is this?1) in bright light sometimes the light in the handle is difficult to see.
2) The current passes through me to complete the circuit to light up the bulb. If there is some issue (water etc) then I could get a lot more than I had bargained for.
A meter stops these issues IMO. But are there other reasons from the pros?
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