Legal advice on deferred agreement for care fees

[thenortherner]

I share joint power of attorney with my brother on behalf of our mother who's just gone into long-term residential care due to Alzheimer's.

We're potentially at looking at a deferred agreement against her property, which is owned outight, but having not been in this situation before and not knowing anyone that has either, would like some legal advice. It's a big decision and one we can't get wrong.

I'm happy to pay for some time with a solicitor who's given advice concerning such agreements before and can run through the pros and cons, and answer the questions we have.

In terms of finding the right solicitor, what sort of specialism should I look for? I'm really only wanting to deal with somebody who's very familiar with the situation.

Thanks in advance.

[thenortherner]

The situation is the home is owned outright and she lived alone until very recently with care workers visiting at intervals during the day.

There are no savings and there's no private pension either.

The care package, benefits and personal independence payments received when living in her own home came to around £450 per week.

We're awaiting another financial assessment to be carried out but we're told the local authority will fund a residential placement up to £500 a week maximium. The letter I received recently on an initial assessment, taking into account her outgoings, property, pension and savings etc says her own personal contribution will be around £70 per week.

On top of this there are top up fees of £110 a week. So all in, £180 a week.

The finance team explained to me that if the property was sold the money in the bank would be taken into account during the financial assessment. And as such there'd be no local funding. Similarly, if the property was rented they'd take this into account and reduce the funding accordingly.

So it seems the best financial decision is to leave the property empty!? Else you're effectively turning away free funding.

So far as I understand it, we're only deferring the shortfall of the £500 plus the top up fee as a combined figure. Unless I'm getting things very confused and we're actually deferring £430 a week (balance left of the £500 a week) plus the top up fees?

Desperately trying to reach somebody from the financial team at the council but I'm not getting calls returned.

[thenortherner]

All, thanks for the responses. Apologies for the delay in responding, I've other issues going on - see Home & DIY thread.

I'm sorry to read of other's stories who have or are experiencing something similar.

The solicitor recommendations are likely to be a little out of our league I'd imagine but no doubting their credentials from what I've read! Thanks all the same. I've found a local-ish solicitor who will help with the application for deferred payment and legal side of things for a fixed fee of £750. I shall let you know how I get on after the meeting takes place in a couple of weeks. If they're any good I'll pass on a recommendation to anyone who's interested via private message. Please, let me know.

I had a good 30 minute chat with the solicitor by phone and things are a bit clearer now.

I think I had things a little arse about face when trying to understand the deferred payment. Whilst in her own home the funding came to around £500 a week for care. I daftly assumed that this would still continue when in residential care, less what she was assessed to be able to contribute. I.e. assessed to be able to afford to contribute £80 from varying benefits etc therefore this amount would be deferred. It's actually the opposite way around - £420 would be deferred.

The options are:
Sell the home and pay for fees monthly
Rent the home and enter a deferred agreement. Rental income will reduce the amount deferred amount, not by much though
Leave the home empty

Option 1 would be viable if the home was worth a significant amount and some money could be invested. The home's worth maybe £150K so no chance of that, the whole lot will be eaten up pretty quickly.

Fees are £515 a week plus a top up of £107.

A review meeting held with the home this week had them mention that when the funding does run out the aim is to keep here there despite the top up fees.

Re. the specialist needs, there are none at present. But we'll be pushing for immediate reasessment if and when they come up for the reasons mentioned.

[thenortherner]

mgv8 said:

For my grandmother we took out a £95,000 policy that was for the rest of her life. So if she lived a long time they picked up the bill but if she passed sooner then they get to keep the cash. It was a very good way to limit the liability.

I like the idea of that. Trouble is my mum's only 62 so can't imagine I'd get such a good deal.

[thenortherner]

BertBert said:

Presumably with £150k asset, your mother is essentially going to be paying the care home fees until her finances get to the 24k threshold?

If so, the question is whether she is paying the care home the commercial rate or the social services rate? In my case that's the difference between £570 and £890 per week.

Bert

In all honesty, I don't know. We were presented with a list of homes from the local authority and the home she's in was on the list. I'll find out.

We were advised the council would pay up to £515 for this home, as with any, and that'd it'd be means tested.

[thenortherner]

All,

Many thanks for the responses.

I'll be back to update after next Monday's meeting.

[thenortherner]

Apologies for the delayed response.

In all honesty, with everything that's going on in the world, the legal side of things had taken a back seat. The care and her being safe within the home had taken priority. Fortunately, the made the decision to stop all visitations ahead of being forced to and were very on the ball with things. And with it being only a small home with maybe 30 residents, the number of staff working there would be comparitively small versus other larger settings which I'm sure's also helped with containment.

PPE was a problem but fortunately I managed to source them some through work.

To date there's not been a single case in the home and that's the main thing. I'm very grateful for that. For the most part she does seem pretty content and in her own bubble to an extent but has definitely sussed something's adrift and the visits and contact have stopped but is unable to articulate her concern. The ability to form a sentence was lost some time ago but often you can work out what's being thought and what's wanted to be said.

The home's a 120 mile round trip from my home and last week was the first time I've been up since February. They're allowing conversations and interaction which involve her being in the dining room or lounge, and me being stood in bush outside, with the window open trying as best you can to have a conversation and interaction. I'm really pleased I was instantly recognised and with a big smile too but ultimately I don't know if it did more harm than good. My mum became confused as to why I wasn't coming in and kept signalling to the front door. Eventually the door was opened by a careworker - it's locked as you'd imagine - to let somebody in, she saw me and tried to come outside and had to be restrained which caused her to become angry which was upsetting to witness.

We've had the results of the financial assessment and now know how much we've to contribute each month. I reckon the value of the house will see her being able to stay there for the next 4-5 years at this level of contribution at which point there'll be nothing. We've put £10K away seperately for the funeral. The home have said that when the money runs out they would not look to essentially chuck her out and leave us having to go to a lesser home - there are some harrowing ones out there - where top up fees are not required.

We've heard nothing from the solicitor since February and in fairness we've not been in touch either. I'm sure a bill will be forthcoming at some point.

What's next, now that things are beginning to come around, is to see the numbers behind the numbers. By that I mean, if it's been calculated that she can contribute £x per month and therefore defer £x per month, I want to see the calcuations.

I don't see this as unreasonable and cannot see why there would not be transparency here. It can only be a set of calculations which show income/benefits per month, what she is allowed to keep (a figure we proposed) for clothes/haircuts etc, and the shortfall.

I'll be getting the solicitor to push the council for this. It cannot be unreasonable to ask for what is essentially the breakdown of payments behind what's basically a fking massive loan.

I can understand the 'spend it now' mentality which is borne out of seeing this sort of thing. It's timed quite well with me really starting to get myself in order financially - I've a seperate thread in the Finance section - particularly around pensions. What I can say is that owning your own home and one of a decent value will pay off in this sort of situation. Whilst there were numerous homes available without top up fees, these would have been the only ones available for us to choose from had there not been an asset that has allowed us to defer the additional top ups that go with the better homes.

Having visited maybe 12 different homes you would not, given the choice, pick those which don't come at a price. Ultimately, the price is our inheritence but I couldn't give to fks about that. Being the power of attorney, and moreso a decent son and human being, the right and only thing to do was to find the best possible care and setting without the slightest thought of inheritence. Doing anything else wasn't ever a consideration.

To all those who are in a similar situation, if I can be of any help then let me know. Send me a private message if you prefer. Best of luck to you and I'll do by best to keep this more updated.