E90/92 M3 : auto vs manual ( vs the Audi TT SMG?)
Discussion
Hi guys (and girls 
), I'm new here and it's nice to be here
I've an Audit TT 2.0TFSI DSG (sorry I meant DSG not SMG) and it's BRILLIANT. Absolutely lovely car in almost every respect. Fast, smooth phenomenal double clutch auto! But now I'm thinking of jumping ship, possibly to an M3
What do I go for? Manual or auto (DCT?)
My only issues with my current TT are speed (6.2s 0-60, which whilst respectable isn't really in the M3's league) and the DSG. Whilst the DSG is amazing for my town driving, comfortable etc, in practice I never use the paddles because unlike my old manual I hate not being able to tell what gear I'm in (such a quiet engine and well soundproofed and smooth car) as when you use a manual you kind of have muscle memory of where you put the stick last (I'm not explaining it well I know) so I only ever us it auto. The bigger issue though is that whilst on paper it's 0.2s faster 0-60 than the manual TT (and a bit more economical) it very irritatingly only gets those figures if using launch control, which in practice I wouldn't use too often. So in practice the 0-60 is probably 6.7s or so (apparently LC helps by 0.5s)
So then the biggie becomes having instant power for pulling off at lights or getting into/out of a junction in a small gap of oncoming traffic. It just DOESN'T do that reliably. For some reason it can sometimes be instant, but sometimes it waits just ever so slightly before it kicks in. It's almost as though the DSG is on some sort of a cycle and if you're lucky and catch it at the right moment it flies, but otherwise you're waiting half a second. It's SO annoying I've lost confidence in it, which to me kind of defeats the purpose of having a fast car, if you can't pull off very quickly when you need to. With a manual you feel the bite of the clutch and can jump IMMEDIATELY. That's what I want.
So what's the deal with the BMW M3? i.e.
1) is DCT somehow inherently different? does it shoot off instantly with exactly the same level of control from a standing start as a manual?
2) People talk about using it in manual mode - is this actually a viable option and do people do this, unlike with my DSG it was a great gimmick for the first 2 days then I just found myself whizzing around in the normal auto mode. What is it like? Can you tell what gear you're in more easily?
I'd be very interested to know about these specific points.
I appreciate there may be some tribalism of dct v manual folk and I don't wish to start a civil war here! I know both with have their advantages but on these points of standing-start control, what are your thoughts please?
), I'm new here and it's nice to be here I've an Audit TT 2.0TFSI DSG (sorry I meant DSG not SMG) and it's BRILLIANT. Absolutely lovely car in almost every respect. Fast, smooth phenomenal double clutch auto! But now I'm thinking of jumping ship, possibly to an M3
What do I go for? Manual or auto (DCT?)
My only issues with my current TT are speed (6.2s 0-60, which whilst respectable isn't really in the M3's league) and the DSG. Whilst the DSG is amazing for my town driving, comfortable etc, in practice I never use the paddles because unlike my old manual I hate not being able to tell what gear I'm in (such a quiet engine and well soundproofed and smooth car) as when you use a manual you kind of have muscle memory of where you put the stick last (I'm not explaining it well I know) so I only ever us it auto. The bigger issue though is that whilst on paper it's 0.2s faster 0-60 than the manual TT (and a bit more economical) it very irritatingly only gets those figures if using launch control, which in practice I wouldn't use too often. So in practice the 0-60 is probably 6.7s or so (apparently LC helps by 0.5s)
So then the biggie becomes having instant power for pulling off at lights or getting into/out of a junction in a small gap of oncoming traffic. It just DOESN'T do that reliably. For some reason it can sometimes be instant, but sometimes it waits just ever so slightly before it kicks in. It's almost as though the DSG is on some sort of a cycle and if you're lucky and catch it at the right moment it flies, but otherwise you're waiting half a second. It's SO annoying I've lost confidence in it, which to me kind of defeats the purpose of having a fast car, if you can't pull off very quickly when you need to. With a manual you feel the bite of the clutch and can jump IMMEDIATELY. That's what I want.
So what's the deal with the BMW M3? i.e.
1) is DCT somehow inherently different? does it shoot off instantly with exactly the same level of control from a standing start as a manual?
2) People talk about using it in manual mode - is this actually a viable option and do people do this, unlike with my DSG it was a great gimmick for the first 2 days then I just found myself whizzing around in the normal auto mode. What is it like? Can you tell what gear you're in more easily?
I'd be very interested to know about these specific points.
I appreciate there may be some tribalism of dct v manual folk and I don't wish to start a civil war here! I know both with have their advantages but on these points of standing-start control, what are your thoughts please?
Edited by SimpleSam on Monday 10th April 15:32
Sorry for the late reply guys, there was a (understandable) ban on new members posting and I couldn't get in to reply.
What I read does give me some reassurance about the DCT.
I've since been doing a lot of reading on Audi forums and it seems it is a common problem with the Audi DSG and people have described it perfectly when saying they find themselves in extremely dangerous situations as a result of this "throttle lag". A perfect example people refer to, which I notice all the time in my TT, is let's say you're at a roundabout waiting to go out, and you see a gap in the traffic to your right. Normally you'd nip in quick, but with a TT DSG, despite it being a very quick car, you release break and hit the gas and no matter whether you're in D or S, for some reason the engine thinks about it for a good half second before moving you forward. This leads to some VERY dangerous situations where you think you can nip out safely but you don't and the stupid car creeps into dangerous oncoming traffic and you get beeped at, before suddenly the engine wakes up and you hurtle forwards at speed. It's VERY annoying and unsafe.
I always put this down to the DSG. With a manual you have the clutch on the bite point and you're fine. With DSG you can't. However in the Audi forums there seems to be some confusion as to what the cause is. Some say they don't notice it, although I suspect they have the problem but just don't know, some say it's due to the computer not registering the brake has been lifted, some say it's due to the delay of air and fuel going into the engine, some say it's the DSG, some say it's a safety feature for the engine, some say it's a safety mechanism for Audi so they don't get sued for someone accidentally pressing gas instead of brakes, some say it's the turbo (but the engine isn't revving at all during this lag). Whatever it is it RUINS the experience of having a fast car around town. Audi acknowledges this but calls it "normal" apparently.
But to me this isn't normal it's a flaw.
This is why I'm asking. I'm reassured that the car doesn't creep when you have your foot off the brake. This suggests there's something inherently different in how BMW and Audi implement their DCTs. Hopefully therefore with a BMW there won't be the "not registering that the brake is no longer pressed" problem at least and *hopefull* it will respond immediately when you put your foot down on the gas. Also as an NA car it's nto going to be the turbo lag.
So the more people who have a DCT who can test this and let me know if the response to the throttle is INSTANT when at a standstill the better. Thanks in advance!
What I read does give me some reassurance about the DCT.
I've since been doing a lot of reading on Audi forums and it seems it is a common problem with the Audi DSG and people have described it perfectly when saying they find themselves in extremely dangerous situations as a result of this "throttle lag". A perfect example people refer to, which I notice all the time in my TT, is let's say you're at a roundabout waiting to go out, and you see a gap in the traffic to your right. Normally you'd nip in quick, but with a TT DSG, despite it being a very quick car, you release break and hit the gas and no matter whether you're in D or S, for some reason the engine thinks about it for a good half second before moving you forward. This leads to some VERY dangerous situations where you think you can nip out safely but you don't and the stupid car creeps into dangerous oncoming traffic and you get beeped at, before suddenly the engine wakes up and you hurtle forwards at speed. It's VERY annoying and unsafe.
I always put this down to the DSG. With a manual you have the clutch on the bite point and you're fine. With DSG you can't. However in the Audi forums there seems to be some confusion as to what the cause is. Some say they don't notice it, although I suspect they have the problem but just don't know, some say it's due to the computer not registering the brake has been lifted, some say it's due to the delay of air and fuel going into the engine, some say it's the DSG, some say it's a safety feature for the engine, some say it's a safety mechanism for Audi so they don't get sued for someone accidentally pressing gas instead of brakes, some say it's the turbo (but the engine isn't revving at all during this lag). Whatever it is it RUINS the experience of having a fast car around town. Audi acknowledges this but calls it "normal" apparently.
But to me this isn't normal it's a flaw.
This is why I'm asking. I'm reassured that the car doesn't creep when you have your foot off the brake. This suggests there's something inherently different in how BMW and Audi implement their DCTs. Hopefully therefore with a BMW there won't be the "not registering that the brake is no longer pressed" problem at least and *hopefull* it will respond immediately when you put your foot down on the gas. Also as an NA car it's nto going to be the turbo lag.
So the more people who have a DCT who can test this and let me know if the response to the throttle is INSTANT when at a standstill the better. Thanks in advance!
Edited by SimpleSam on Wednesday 12th April 15:33
Hi... some feedback for anyone who is searching this in future.
I've test driven a E92 M3 and I have to say the DCT is AMAZING.
ZERO lag from go. No creeping. You're at the lights at a standstill. You even think about touching the throttle and it leaps forward in an instant.
Brilliant brilliant stuff, even though I am not impressed by the M3 overall.
I've test driven a E92 M3 and I have to say the DCT is AMAZING.
ZERO lag from go. No creeping. You're at the lights at a standstill. You even think about touching the throttle and it leaps forward in an instant.
Brilliant brilliant stuff, even though I am not impressed by the M3 overall.
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