Are 1990s "performance" cars still quick?

[white_goodman]

This isn't intended to be another "fings ain't what they used to be" style thread but I'm just thinking of some of the "older" performance cars that my friends and I owned back in the day in our early 20s such as:

205/309 GTis
306 Rallye/GTi-6
Primera eGTs
Civic 1.6i-16
BMW 325is (E30)
Volvo 440 Turbo
Corrado VR6s

They all felt pretty bloody quick back in the day to be honest but the argument I hear trotted out nowadays is that none of these would see which way a modern diesel repmobile went and the relatively modest power and torque outputs would seem to support that.

Even my modern "mid-spec" Civic puts out 143bhp from its 1.8 litre petrol engine (more than a 205/309 GTi, Golf GTi 16v or Renault Clio/19 16v) but I can't say it feels that quick, whereas those cars did. Even some modern cars with 200bhp+ don't necessarily feel that quick.

So, I guess what I'm asking is, would a well-driven 205 GTi/Golf GTi 16v still be able to keep say a modern 320d "honest" cross country or would they really not see which way it went.

Are these cars really that slow by today's standards or did lighter weight, less refinement and gearing more geared towards performance rather than fuel economy and emissions "fool" us into thinking that they were a lot quicker than they were?

[white_goodman]

aka_kerrly said:

If you consider that for example a 2007 Civic 1.8 with 143 hp weights nearly 350Kg MORE than the likes of the mk2 GTI, 205gt, even the E30 an 306s are barely over 1000kgs then you can appreciate why the civic is approximately 3 seconds slower to 60mph than 80s hot hatches!

However that only tells part of the story. Take a 205 GTI 1.9, 150hp per tonne, the same as a Civic Type R (fn2) and same as a Jaguar XF 3.0D

What's interesting though is how the 0-100mph times vary, 22.6sec for the GTI, 16.8 CTR, 19.8sec for the Jaguar.

As a result for the average traffic light grand prix, motorway slip road/dual carriage way blast at somewhat short of 100mph an old school hot hatch will not be embarrassed by modern run of the mill cars.

You make a good point. Look at the mk2 Golf 16v vs. a new GTI (without the Performance Pack). Both around 145bhp/tonne due to the new one weighing nearly 400kg more but I appreciate that the turbo gives the new GTI a lot more top end performance.

[white_goodman]

AntiLagGC8 said:

I wasn't talking about the 1.9 GTI bud, it was pretty pedestrian back in the 1990's compared to the EVO's, Impreza's and other Japanese turbo cars.

It's a great drivers car though!

Let's be fair though and compare like for like. It was a quick HOT HATCH in the 90s. How much quicker in the real world is the modern equivalent (208 GTI). I haven't driven a 205 GTi for over 10 years. If I were to today, would it really feel that slow? I agree that Jap turbo cars were fast back then and still fast now though. A bit ahead of their time in terms of performance perhaps but I guess other cars have caught up now.

[white_goodman]

TVRJAS said:

These are quite entertaining tests https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EUaPlGlSIk

There are many tests in the series,this was just the 1st one in my youtube history.

Good to see the "heroes" winning but in most cases not by much. I guess the Golf wasn't that shocking. More power (150bhp?) and a lot more torque. What surprised me was XR2i vs. Fiesta Ecoboost. I really thought that the Ecoboost would win. Was it the 123bhp version (no sound on my computer)?

[white_goodman]

Thanks for all the replies. It has been an interesting read. Of course the thread title should probably have read "do 1990s "performance" cars still FEEL quick?" because obviously the figures suggest that new performance cars are quicker.

I haven't driven a 1990s performance car since I sold my Corrado VR6 in 2007. Jumping into something now that was considered quick back in the day, Sierra Cosworth or Delta Integrale perhaps, would they still feel quick or would they feel slow i.e. would one wonder what the fuss was all about. These cars certainly used to feel quick and the road network hasn't changed that much but probably busier if anything, so shouldn't they still feel quick?