Japanese Gentlemens Agreements, German Power battles ?

[J4CKO]

Remember when the Lotus Carlton came out with 375 bhp and the press went into a frenzy about the irresponsibility of releasing a car with such power to the public, this was a time when 150 bhp caused wonderment, now that 375 bhp is now a fairly fiesty hatchback output, the top German stuff now is circa 600 bhp, yet not a peep from the press ?

What changed ? is it as simple as the driver aids becoming mainstream and preventing them, by default changing into hedge seeking missiles, any fast car needs respect but what would happen if you allowed 600 bhp and no ESP etc ?

When did the Japanese abandon their agreements and why ?

Where is this going, surely 600 bhp in a medium sized saloon is enough or is 700 bhp round the corner ? (already here with a simple remap I guess)

[J4CKO]

ging84 said:

ESP is a big factor but there is also 25 years of development into all aspects of motoring safety, and generally everything is built to a far higher standard.
The likely hood of a an estate agent having an accident trying to make progress a 600hp rwd saloon car with no driver aids is probably still similar to what it would have been in the early 90s, but his chances of surviving and/or escaping serious injury in a modern car are so much better (or worse if you don't like estate agents).

Yeah, potential speed is only part of the equation, the ESP helps ham fisted drivers (including myself) deploy way more power than they have any business having at their disposal, my car will spin its wheels at sixty/seventy miles an hour in the wet (on good tyres) if the gearbox kicks down, the only drama being a little shimmy and the light on the dash, without it and taking liberties that could equal facing the way you came or a swift, unintended lane change.

So, if my car didnt have the electronics I would be very wary of that happening and not trifle with it in the wet, that is with 388 bhp and 391 lb/ft, have tried it without the electronics on in the dry and its fine, actually very predictable but when its wet and cold I am more wary. I think its the kickdown thing that I fond a little ususual, not quite like a manual in terms of fine control.

So, add another 200 odd bhp and a wedge more torque, probably lower down the rev range with FI, things must get pretty squirelly pretty quickly, especially with RWD.

Remember all the accidents the Police had with Sierra Cosworths and the early turbodiesel 325 TDS, the drivers just werent used to all that torque arriving in a big dollop at the back axle and there were no driver aids to pull them out of the mess, even pretty experienced traffic bobbies.

I wonder how the average driver of a 2 tonne 500 bhp plus SUV would get on without the electronics ? has anyone tried say a Cayenne Turbo without the electronics on ?

[J4CKO]

TooMany2cvs said:

J4CKO said:

...but what would happen if you allowed 600 bhp and no ESP etc ?

ESP is, of course, a legal requirement on everything now.

But you can turn it off. And the drive to the front wheels.
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-germancars/new-...

Yeah, I am glad it is really,a nd glad it can be turned off, though not something I do often.

Nice they can do stuff where you get the option to make it RWD only, wonder if they can do front only, we learnt about the different handling characteristics as kids as my younger brother had an "Optima mid Custom" RC car, with an E30 M3 body and we used to remove the front or rear driveshafts, gave us a good feel for the three drive layouts.

[J4CKO]

OverSteery said:

J4CKO said:

...
What changed ? is it as simple as the driver aids becoming mainstream and preventing them, by default changing into hedge seeking missiles, any fast car needs respect but what would happen if you allowed 600 bhp and no ESP etc ?
....

My car is alleged to have 550bhp - no ESP fitted and the traction control has been off since I bought it. Despite not being powerfully built (I'm more overweight),or a company director, or a driving God, its really not that hard to drive it without killing myself.

I have to admit if it were auto I might worry about kickdown on a wet road.

Enthusiasts are a bit different, not always but generally, the fact you know how much power it has is a clue, and which wheels propel it, you know it will give you a kicking if you take liberties, we can all get caught out but by and large most enthusiasts will be aware, doesn't guarantee anything but its a better starting point.

I managed fine with my 944, not that powerful but still 200 odd bhp and no electronics.

I wonder how many diesel BMWs and Merc would get crashed without the electronics, different cross section, not saying they are clueless but probably less aware/interested compared to the folk on here, even a 320d is 180 bhp with 300 lb/ft of torque, I am sure people would adapt but if it were all disabled now there would be a few incident I expect.

[J4CKO]

kambites said:

J4CKO said:

I wonder how many diesel BMWs and Merc would get crashed without the electronics, different cross section, not saying they are clueless but probably less aware/interested compared to the folk on here, even a 320d is 180 bhp with 300 lb/ft of torque, I am sure people would adapt but if it were all disabled now there would be a few incident I expect.

That'ss only something like 130bhp/tonne. With the amount of grip modern tyres have, I doubt the electronics in the average 320d get much of a work out unless it snows.

It is still way more power than the average company driver had back in the 90s for example, even a 2 litre (for the chosen few) generally had not much more than 120 bhp and 120 lb/ft, at a much higher rpm as well, 300 lb/ft is plenty to unstick the rear if you want to, and then people stick cheapo tyres on as well.

[J4CKO]

kambites said:

J4CKO said:

kambites said:

J4CKO said:

I wonder how many diesel BMWs and Merc would get crashed without the electronics, different cross section, not saying they are clueless but probably less aware/interested compared to the folk on here, even a 320d is 180 bhp with 300 lb/ft of torque, I am sure people would adapt but if it were all disabled now there would be a few incident I expect.

That'ss only something like 130bhp/tonne. With the amount of grip modern tyres have, I doubt the electronics in the average 320d get much of a work out unless it snows.

It is still way more power than the average company driver had back in the 90s for example, even a 2 litre (for the chosen few) generally had not much more than 120 bhp and 120 lb/ft, at a much higher rpm as well, 300 lb/ft is plenty to unstick the rear if you want to, and then people stick cheapo tyres on as well.

Hmm, the 2.0 8v Cavalier in 1990 had 121bhp and weighed 1060kg so whilst yes it was lower, it was hardly in a different league. As you say the difference in low-rev torque to weight ratio is rather greater, though.

I used to drive my bosses 1.8i MK2 Cavalier, felt like a beast after my Mk 1 1.6 GT Capri and that used to scrabble all over the place with 110 bhp or so with RWD I may have binned it, I had some pretty lairy moments in the Capri !

that is more my stupidity and lack of skill but I would imagine 300 lb/ft coming in at low rpm in the wet might be a bad combination without ESP, ESP must have saved a lot of moments and crashes, a lot of the accidents I have known friends and family have would probably have been a non event had it been fitted back then, not sure it would have helped when I reversed our Galaxy into a neighbours visitors Megane though



Tyres are better now but people like to redress that with cheapo Chinese toss, that said, even back then the decent brands were pretty good.