MSA regs on road rally cars

[benjj]

Hello chaps,

Wondering if there are any scrutineers on here who do the MSA Clubman road rally events?

I have a questions regarding lights.

I have recently restored a 1973 Citroen DS (pic below) and have tried to recreate the works rally original look. The majority of the rallies I do are the long distance continental events which are are not persuant to the MSA regs.

However, yesterday I entered the Ilkley Jubilee (MSA Clubman event) in April and have just been reading through the regs. The one I have a question about is lighting.

The DS has four forward facing beams and I have added a pair of Cibie Super Oscars. Therefore I have 6 forward facing beams.



MSA Reg 18.5.4 in the new 2012 Blue Book states: A headlamp may consist of a single reflector with a dual filament bulb, or seperate reflectors each with single filament bulbs providing the functions of main beam and dipped beam seperately. This will be considered as equivalent to a single dual filament headlamp unit. Lamp units comprising two reflectors where one is fitted with a dual filament bulb will be considered as a combined headlamp and auxiliary lamp. In this instance therefore no additional auxiliary lamps may be fitted.

Looking at the photo above you can see all 6 lights on. The two under glass (the original units) are dipped beam on the outside (white light) and main beam on the inside (yellow light). Each is a single filament bulb.

Would I be right in thinking that using the MSA regulation above that the two lamps under the one glass cover will actually be cinsidered as a single light by the scrutineer?

If so, great, happy days

If not:

MSA Reg 18.5.7 states: Where more than four beams are fitted as standard, only four may be used and the remainder must be rendered unusable for the duration of the event.

Would it be a crap argument to state that I have tried to recreate a Citroen Works look for the car? I can easily disconnect the two Cibie spot lights (they're fitted with a simple 30A blade fuse to the battery which can be removed.)

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I've already dropped the event organiser a line but not heard anything back yet - he must be pretty busy organising things I guess

[benjj]

AndyMil said:

with regard to 18.5.4, as long as they operate as you say, ie; the outer has no main beam, then YES they would be classed as a single unit and your Cibies can stay and operate. therefore negating the question re 18.5.7.
And, Yes, it would be a crap argument, especially as you know the regs, which are probably a lot tighter now than 39 years ago when your car was originally registered.

Thanks Andy. Think should be ok, I'm going to visit the scrutineer before the rally so he can check.

As for knowing the regs: I didn't actually. This will be my first ever MSA event. The car has been set up for the likes of the Monte, Liege-Rome-Liege etc. Mine is pretty damned restrained compared to the Alpine A110s with up to 10 forward facing lamps.

Having read a lot of the Blue Book by now I must say that I've been surprised by a few things, especially lighting. It would be frankly dangerous to compete in a DS amongst a lot of other cars (at night) without some seriously uprated lights.

[benjj]

AndyMil said:

who's the Scrut?

David Lambourne of IDMC.

[benjj]

velocemitch said:

In respect of lighting, the blue Book doesn't have safety as a priority, you are expected to drive within the capacity of the lights. The limit on for forward facing lenses is intended to reduce the impact of cars passing houses at night. We fall foul of the 4 lenses rule with the Clio 172 on modern events, it's debatable if we could put spots on it due to it having side lights, dips and main beams as three separate lenses under one cover. The little fog lights further confuse the issue too!.

Another sad fact about Historic Road Rallying in the UK, is that we simply aren't allowed or encouraged to recreate works cars, no sponsorship, single colour paint schemes, no wheel arch extensions, the headlight issue, full interior trim, bumpers etc etc. This also applies to the ban on twin cams, and the limit on cylinders and chokes on night road rallies.

The essential problem is that UK Road Rally rules were radically altered in the early eighties to prevent people using the stage specification cars on the roads at night as the speeds were getting out of hand. When Historic rallying came along the same basic framework of rules was applied, it had to be or people would just bring out their old Group 4 Mk2's again on night events under a Historic permit.

The legacy of all this is interesting cars like your DS (and my Alfa) are not allowed on night events with a road rally permit, we can get over this on daylight events due to the waiver system, but this only applies to the engine modifications nothing else.

Bizzarely though the MSA have left a small loophole which is the 'navigational' rally permit, where the engine restrictions don't apply.

Thanks for this.

So to get things straight - the waiver is solely for engine mods on navigational rallies? Just trying to work out what needs addressing.

I'm entered in the Clubman class on the Ilkley Jubilee Run (not rally) but it is still, obviously, an MSA event.

I'll also (3 days before it) returned from a 1500 mile French road rally and the car will be stickered up with period (and very expensive!) Works car decals and door mounted MSA spec numbers. Will all this have to come off?

I'm going to see the Ilkley scrutineer with the car pre rally so am hoping as it is a daytime event that I can disconnect the spots and render them inoperable but still mounted.

Any advice much appreciated as always!

[benjj]

Thanks Ian, understood (sort of!)

I'll have 3 days to turn the car around (assuming it gets back from France in a rallyable state - looks like the stickers will all have to come off then. Shame about that, took ages ot source them. I might try and see if I can cover them with something actaully.

Not bothered about race numbers on doors, they'll be coming off anyway.

[benjj]

Will have a look into that, thanks.