Three wheeler Cabin Scooter Design
Discussion
i was playing around with a few ideas this weekend, over a modern cabin scooter 3 wheeler.
A lowcost single seater, with a scooter engine, or electric drive or hybrid, if Piaggio supplied me their engine.....
A rough sketch of my idea,with a sliding and pivoting door to enter the scooter.
What do you guys think ? are we going to see something similar in the future of our city centers?
A lowcost single seater, with a scooter engine, or electric drive or hybrid, if Piaggio supplied me their engine.....
A rough sketch of my idea,with a sliding and pivoting door to enter the scooter.
What do you guys think ? are we going to see something similar in the future of our city centers?
Edited by fuoriserie on Monday 2nd February 11:38
stig mills said:
That is very cool. The future for commute vehicles? I love the novel but practical roof/door. It needs a name for that door, like "roll door" or "armadillo door" as apposed to swan wing! Maybe the body above the rear wheel should flow to match the door opening line. Regards Stuart
Thanks Stuart....just playing with shapes, but roll door could be an idea.....but it's not mine, but of this very inventive guy, who built the Moonbeam, a lowcost threewheeler:Edited by stig mills on Monday 2nd February 13:27
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6omtd/jorysquibb/id20...
I just used his idea for the opening , in a different design......I like the idea very much, and it would make economic sense if manufactured.
Cheers
Italo
911hillclimber said:
I think you are spot-on with the single seater trike for the commute/shopping.
The Smart car is really almost there, but the gearchange is truely rediculously slow. A 'twist-n-go' of the modern scooter is ideal for the simple hassle free-traffic run, but a two speed 'high' or 'low' design would be ideal for the A road runs?
The trick is to have a design that does not make people feel silly stuck in traffic. The C5 was silly, and so many other attempts are too radical.
The Smart was not well recieved in the UK compared to main land Europe; bit too much for our tastes?
Maybe you need to 'calm' your great shape a touch to be more conservative?
Getting out of a vehicle in the event of a small or major crunch must be addressed. In doing that I think you can have a very easy access to the car. The Smart does this very well.
Indeed, a Smart with a manual box would be very good for many uses of Joe Public in my opinion.
Graham.
Thanks for the comments, and I agree on the single seater solution.The Smart car is really almost there, but the gearchange is truely rediculously slow. A 'twist-n-go' of the modern scooter is ideal for the simple hassle free-traffic run, but a two speed 'high' or 'low' design would be ideal for the A road runs?
The trick is to have a design that does not make people feel silly stuck in traffic. The C5 was silly, and so many other attempts are too radical.
The Smart was not well recieved in the UK compared to main land Europe; bit too much for our tastes?
Maybe you need to 'calm' your great shape a touch to be more conservative?
Getting out of a vehicle in the event of a small or major crunch must be addressed. In doing that I think you can have a very easy access to the car. The Smart does this very well.
Indeed, a Smart with a manual box would be very good for many uses of Joe Public in my opinion.
Graham.
Edited by 911hillclimber on Monday 2nd February 22:31
If the design went further, but at the moment it's still just a rough sketch, you would have to address the issues you poined out..
Cheers
Italo
Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 3rd February 09:28
ajprice said:
I like that design Italo 
. You said its smaller than a Smart, would it be about the same size as Gordon Murray's T25 city car design? That car hasn't been shown fully, but here is a picture of a model next to a Smart and a new Mini
The trike design reminds me of a tiny version of the Aptera aero economy car. Maybe a design could work with aero wheel covers and the rear tapering to an edge like that car?
Hi Adrian, I was thinking along the lines of a slightly longer Mev Etrike, maybe 2metres long ? . You said its smaller than a Smart, would it be about the same size as Gordon Murray's T25 city car design? That car hasn't been shown fully, but here is a picture of a model next to a Smart and a new MiniThe trike design reminds me of a tiny version of the Aptera aero economy car. Maybe a design could work with aero wheel covers and the rear tapering to an edge like that car?
I like your idea of the Aptera, will see if i can incorporate the idea in a new sketch...
cheers mate
Italo
Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 3rd February 16:13
I'm glad you all liked ....., in reference to the canopy, I was really thinking about a polycarbonate Glider canopy, than real glass due to cost reasons.
But if Stuart says that pricing could come down, or be lower than expected, if more units were manufactured , then I'm all for the glass canopy.
I agree on the scooter engine option, eventhough this idea started as the Mev Etrike rebody, and that is electric.
Reverse gear should be investigated, maybe a small electric motor ?
Cheers
Italo
, in reference to the canopy, I was really thinking about a polycarbonate Glider canopy, than real glass due to cost reasons.But if Stuart says that pricing could come down, or be lower than expected, if more units were manufactured , then I'm all for the glass canopy.
I agree on the scooter engine option, eventhough this idea started as the Mev Etrike rebody, and that is electric.
Reverse gear should be investigated, maybe a small electric motor ?
Cheers
Italo
Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 4th February 13:44
I would have never thougt that a few rough sketches would have gotten this far in the discussion........
I believe that a lowcost single seater, with some sort of protection could be a solution, in replacing your classic scooter, for your round trip daily work commute, especially in mainland Europe congested city centres, were parking is hard to find, roads are narrow, traffic is out of control....
But you would need local goverment incentives and legislation to push for these type of vehicles, being them electric or petrol, or maybe with CNG, very common in the south of Europe.
A pubblic media campaign would help in showing that you don't need a 1.2ton car driving to work everyday with a single person on board, it's a total waste of space, energy and efficiency..........you could just keep the wasted petrol for your weekend track day sportscar instead...
Things are changing and even if most of us are still resisting the change, due to our psycholigical downsizing in the standard of living most of us we will be experiencing in the coming months,.......but a modern,sleek and fun looking 3 wheeler could be a partial solution to certain transportation needs........
I believe that by 2010-11, we will be ready for a change, and our transportation needs will have to take into real consideration, vehicles that have a porpouse.
You can still have your family car, for youe weekend trips to the mountains, beaches or wherever, but for your daily commute to work, at least 25-35% of people wouldn't need more than a single seater to go to work!
I also think that production of such a vehicle, could still be made in Europe, without resorting to have China, India or Africa to manufacture it.......with the economic crisis we are going through, wages will be certainly become lower, unfortunately i would have to add....
, but make certain business concepts viable here in Europe.
Cheers
Italo
I believe that a lowcost single seater, with some sort of protection could be a solution, in replacing your classic scooter, for your round trip daily work commute, especially in mainland Europe congested city centres, were parking is hard to find, roads are narrow, traffic is out of control....
But you would need local goverment incentives and legislation to push for these type of vehicles, being them electric or petrol, or maybe with CNG, very common in the south of Europe.
A pubblic media campaign would help in showing that you don't need a 1.2ton car driving to work everyday with a single person on board, it's a total waste of space, energy and efficiency..........you could just keep the wasted petrol for your weekend track day sportscar instead...
Things are changing and even if most of us are still resisting the change, due to our psycholigical downsizing in the standard of living most of us we will be experiencing in the coming months,.......but a modern,sleek and fun looking 3 wheeler could be a partial solution to certain transportation needs........
I believe that by 2010-11, we will be ready for a change, and our transportation needs will have to take into real consideration, vehicles that have a porpouse.
You can still have your family car, for youe weekend trips to the mountains, beaches or wherever, but for your daily commute to work, at least 25-35% of people wouldn't need more than a single seater to go to work!
I also think that production of such a vehicle, could still be made in Europe, without resorting to have China, India or Africa to manufacture it.......with the economic crisis we are going through, wages will be certainly become lower, unfortunately i would have to add....
, but make certain business concepts viable here in Europe.Cheers
Italo
Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 10th February 08:54
A bit of topic on 3 wheelers....,found on the BBC, but info on the economy, or what some are predicting it to be in the future for the UK, and Europe is in a similar shape in my opinion........., and if this info turns out to be only half true........a cabin scooter could be my means of transport pretty soon.....
The financial crisis will be "more extreme and more serious than that of the 1930s", cabinet minister Ed Balls has predicted.
Mr Balls, a former economic adviser to Gordon Brown, said the global recession would be the most serious for "over 100 years", the Yorkshire Post reported.
He told a Labour conference that these were "seismic events that are going to change the political landscape".
The Conservatives said the remarks were "staggering and very worrying".
Mr Balls, the schools secretary, made the comments at Labour's Yorkshire conference at the weekend, the newspaper reported.
Mr Balls and Downing Street have attempted to play down the significance of his remarks, insisting he had been pointing out the unique nature of the global financial crisis and was not predicting that the impact on ordinary people would be worse than that experienced during the Great Depression of the 1930s.
According to the Yorkshire Post, he said: "The economy is going to define our politics in this region and in Britain in the next year, the next five years, the next 10 and even the next 15 years.
"These are seismic events that are going to change the political landscape.
"I think that this is a financial crisis more extreme and more serious than that of the 1930s and we all remember how the politics of that era were shaped by the economy."
Mr Balls, MP for Normanton, added: "We now are seeing the realities of globalisation, though at a speed, pace and ferocity which none of us have seen before.
"The reality is that this is becoming the most serious global recession for, I'm sure, over 100 years as it will turn out."
'Unprecedented'
For the Conservatives, shadow Treasury minister Phillip Hammond said: "This is a staggering and very worrying admission from a cabinet minister and Gordon Brown's closest ally in the Treasury over the past 10 years.
"We are being told that not only we are facing the worst recession in 100 years, but that it will last for over a decade - far longer than Treasury forecasts predict."
He added: "Is Ed Balls spilling the beans here and telling us that the government sees the situation as slightly more serious than they have tried to portray?"
Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman Vince Cable contrasted Mr Balls' assessment with comments from fellow minister Baroness Vadera, who recently said she could see "green shoots" of economic recovery.
He said: "Instead of giving clear and consistent leadership, government ministers are oscillating between complacent optimism and this doom-laden picture of Armageddon. Surely the truth lies between the two?"
A spokesman for Mr Balls insisted that the prime minister and Chancellor Alistair Darling had highlighted the "unprecedented speed and ferocity" of the crisis "time and time again".
He said: "The unprecedented global nature of this crisis and its impact on the global financial sector is affecting every single economy in the world.
"The Bank of England agrees with this analysis. As the deputy governor of the Bank of England, Charlie Bean, said in October: 'This is a once in a lifetime crisis, and possibly the largest financial crisis of its kind in human history."'
He added the minister had been referring in his speech to the differences between Labour and the Conservatives on the economy.
Last week, Mr Brown used the word "depression" during prime minister's questions, but his spokesman later said this had been a slip of the tongue.
The Conservatives urged him to clarify his comments and be careful with language.
The Commons Treasury Select Committee is due to question the bosses and former bosses of the UK's biggest banks on Tuesday and Wednesday over the causes of the financial crisis.
The financial crisis will be "more extreme and more serious than that of the 1930s", cabinet minister Ed Balls has predicted.
Mr Balls, a former economic adviser to Gordon Brown, said the global recession would be the most serious for "over 100 years", the Yorkshire Post reported.
He told a Labour conference that these were "seismic events that are going to change the political landscape".
The Conservatives said the remarks were "staggering and very worrying".
Mr Balls, the schools secretary, made the comments at Labour's Yorkshire conference at the weekend, the newspaper reported.
Mr Balls and Downing Street have attempted to play down the significance of his remarks, insisting he had been pointing out the unique nature of the global financial crisis and was not predicting that the impact on ordinary people would be worse than that experienced during the Great Depression of the 1930s.
According to the Yorkshire Post, he said: "The economy is going to define our politics in this region and in Britain in the next year, the next five years, the next 10 and even the next 15 years.
"These are seismic events that are going to change the political landscape.
"I think that this is a financial crisis more extreme and more serious than that of the 1930s and we all remember how the politics of that era were shaped by the economy."
Mr Balls, MP for Normanton, added: "We now are seeing the realities of globalisation, though at a speed, pace and ferocity which none of us have seen before.
"The reality is that this is becoming the most serious global recession for, I'm sure, over 100 years as it will turn out."
'Unprecedented'
For the Conservatives, shadow Treasury minister Phillip Hammond said: "This is a staggering and very worrying admission from a cabinet minister and Gordon Brown's closest ally in the Treasury over the past 10 years.
"We are being told that not only we are facing the worst recession in 100 years, but that it will last for over a decade - far longer than Treasury forecasts predict."
He added: "Is Ed Balls spilling the beans here and telling us that the government sees the situation as slightly more serious than they have tried to portray?"
Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman Vince Cable contrasted Mr Balls' assessment with comments from fellow minister Baroness Vadera, who recently said she could see "green shoots" of economic recovery.
He said: "Instead of giving clear and consistent leadership, government ministers are oscillating between complacent optimism and this doom-laden picture of Armageddon. Surely the truth lies between the two?"
A spokesman for Mr Balls insisted that the prime minister and Chancellor Alistair Darling had highlighted the "unprecedented speed and ferocity" of the crisis "time and time again".
He said: "The unprecedented global nature of this crisis and its impact on the global financial sector is affecting every single economy in the world.
"The Bank of England agrees with this analysis. As the deputy governor of the Bank of England, Charlie Bean, said in October: 'This is a once in a lifetime crisis, and possibly the largest financial crisis of its kind in human history."'
He added the minister had been referring in his speech to the differences between Labour and the Conservatives on the economy.
Last week, Mr Brown used the word "depression" during prime minister's questions, but his spokesman later said this had been a slip of the tongue.
The Conservatives urged him to clarify his comments and be careful with language.
The Commons Treasury Select Committee is due to question the bosses and former bosses of the UK's biggest banks on Tuesday and Wednesday over the causes of the financial crisis.
Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 10th February 15:42
911hillclimber said:
This is why I challenge anyone on here to show me today a drive train that will meet our friend's driving habit above. Think of those hills and battery resource. Hydrocarbons are a powerful convienient power source/medium. Easy to get, easy to control and hugely potent.
Joe Public understands it too (and diesel).
This idea of the Trike is great. It is not new, but it is close to being an acceptable device as public mood changes.
It is also a great commercial opportunity for the right group of people.
If only I was 30!
I hope someone will make this vehicle in 2009 while the mood is here, but is it really the right time?
Just do not ask a Bank Manager, but find an entreperure (sp)with b@lls.
I have sketched the chassis now and the body bubbles using a big scooter out back. Just the bloody reversing method and the all important canopy.
The only engine that meets your design brief would be CNG,or LPG and in Italy they've started doing CNG and LPG conversions of old scooter engines, just check this video, unfortunately in Italian for you, but basically it says that it holds 5liters. of CNG, it costs 3 Euros to fill it up, and runs for 100km, at the same speed as the original petrol engineJoe Public understands it too (and diesel).
This idea of the Trike is great. It is not new, but it is close to being an acceptable device as public mood changes.
It is also a great commercial opportunity for the right group of people.
If only I was 30!
I hope someone will make this vehicle in 2009 while the mood is here, but is it really the right time?
Just do not ask a Bank Manager, but find an entreperure (sp)with b@lls.
I have sketched the chassis now and the body bubbles using a big scooter out back. Just the bloody reversing method and the all important canopy.
LPG conversion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO9FdgFRWaM&eur...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UesaKFh5Vt4&fea...
You should consider an alternative clean source of fuel, such as CNG, methanol, in addition to electric .
At the moment CNG could be the right choice, for such a trike..........
Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 10th February 21:14
LPG installation kit oin a motorcycle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQApitlUZtg&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upxNTlE0kOQ&fea...
supplier of LPG conversion kits for scooters in Italy
http://lovato-autogas.com.au/index.php?option=com_...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQApitlUZtg&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upxNTlE0kOQ&fea...
supplier of LPG conversion kits for scooters in Italy
http://lovato-autogas.com.au/index.php?option=com_...
Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 10th February 21:23
Auntieroll said:
I tend to agree with 911Hillclimber about the energy sourcing,ie piston engine.
As it stands at the moment it looks as though Hydrogen,hydrocarbon or natural gas fuelled piston engines are the only truly practicable energy sourcesfor the near future,there are various reasons for this,which mainly revolve around cost.
Piston engine technology is pretty good despite what the Green lobby would have us believe,the big bugbear to be surmounted,I feel is the mass of todays vehicles as the MPG of even a new "MINI" could be drastically improved with a reduction in weight(it weighs about the same as a Merc 190 for heaven's sake!)as would ditching the catalytic converters.If hydrogen was used as the power source there would be virtually zero pollution from the exhaust.
All this is in an ideal world though,with the increasingly large cars that seem to be the norm nowadays (just compare the sizes of the old and new Mini,Fiesta,Polo or Fiat 500 )all this extra mass all takes energy to accelerate,as Newton proved years ago.
On the other hand ,just how many of us would fancy commuting in a vehicle which makes the occupant/s feel vulnerable ,(anyone who is a Motorcyclist or Seven driver knows where I'm coming from)such a vehicle would surely meet with huge market resistance.C5 anyone?
The Green aspect,needs very careful examination, especially with the various practical problems regarding battery management by the user,the service life of Lipo batteries being only a few hundred cycles at the moment, the very real attendant risk of fires resulting if accident damaged and the disposal of massive amounts of end of life cells,are just a few factors to be considered.
Fuel cells,I hear you say,well the majors are spending loads of money on R+D at the moment but cost is too high at the moment,anyway it is reckoned
that they will be supplied on a lease basis in order to recoup the development costs.These will undoubtedly become common place in the next few decades.
I don't mean to appear negative,far from it,I think Italo's designs are very practical and realistic,I only wish I had a really serious lottery win to enable his talent to be showcased,at least with a well styled and executed vehicle there is far more chance of changing the perceptions of the public but there needs to be a sea change in public attitudes for them to run with this type of vehicle,a lightweight four wheeler would probably be easier to sell to the average commuter due to the negative perceptions of trikes which has been reinforced by such as J.Carrot ,J. Clarkson et al,however unjust they may be.
The forthcoming economic D........n (Peter said not to mention the 'D'word because it might not happen if we all stick our heads in the sand /remain positive and the government/s can print notes quickly enough to engineer a soft(er) landing...fat chance!) and resultant carnage resulting from people having far less cash to run vehicles with,coupled with the desire to retain their independent transport, may provide such a change,this will mean many majors scaling down on production of the larger cars in favour of smaller,lighter more economical vehicles ,assuming the backlog of unsold cars can be shifted,there will almost inevitably be many,many more closures of car production plants worldwide,hopefully we shouldn't be hit too badly as imported cars will become increasingly expensive as the £ weakens thus hopefully making it more sensible to manufacture at home?
Sorry, strayed off topic and onto soapbox but Italo has a knack of starting long running threads which naturally tend to diversify somewhat as they run.
Personally,I would love to own and run an economical,inexpensive,practical 3 wheeler commuter such as proposed,I feel that educating Joe public will be a rather more difficult task though.
I'm sure you would be one of the first customers for the new trike....As it stands at the moment it looks as though Hydrogen,hydrocarbon or natural gas fuelled piston engines are the only truly practicable energy sourcesfor the near future,there are various reasons for this,which mainly revolve around cost.
Piston engine technology is pretty good despite what the Green lobby would have us believe,the big bugbear to be surmounted,I feel is the mass of todays vehicles as the MPG of even a new "MINI" could be drastically improved with a reduction in weight(it weighs about the same as a Merc 190 for heaven's sake!)as would ditching the catalytic converters.If hydrogen was used as the power source there would be virtually zero pollution from the exhaust.
All this is in an ideal world though,with the increasingly large cars that seem to be the norm nowadays (just compare the sizes of the old and new Mini,Fiesta,Polo or Fiat 500 )all this extra mass all takes energy to accelerate,as Newton proved years ago.
On the other hand ,just how many of us would fancy commuting in a vehicle which makes the occupant/s feel vulnerable ,(anyone who is a Motorcyclist or Seven driver knows where I'm coming from)such a vehicle would surely meet with huge market resistance.C5 anyone?
The Green aspect,needs very careful examination, especially with the various practical problems regarding battery management by the user,the service life of Lipo batteries being only a few hundred cycles at the moment, the very real attendant risk of fires resulting if accident damaged and the disposal of massive amounts of end of life cells,are just a few factors to be considered.
Fuel cells,I hear you say,well the majors are spending loads of money on R+D at the moment but cost is too high at the moment,anyway it is reckoned
that they will be supplied on a lease basis in order to recoup the development costs.These will undoubtedly become common place in the next few decades.
I don't mean to appear negative,far from it,I think Italo's designs are very practical and realistic,I only wish I had a really serious lottery win to enable his talent to be showcased,at least with a well styled and executed vehicle there is far more chance of changing the perceptions of the public but there needs to be a sea change in public attitudes for them to run with this type of vehicle,a lightweight four wheeler would probably be easier to sell to the average commuter due to the negative perceptions of trikes which has been reinforced by such as J.Carrot ,J. Clarkson et al,however unjust they may be.
The forthcoming economic D........n (Peter said not to mention the 'D'word because it might not happen if we all stick our heads in the sand /remain positive and the government/s can print notes quickly enough to engineer a soft(er) landing...fat chance!) and resultant carnage resulting from people having far less cash to run vehicles with,coupled with the desire to retain their independent transport, may provide such a change,this will mean many majors scaling down on production of the larger cars in favour of smaller,lighter more economical vehicles ,assuming the backlog of unsold cars can be shifted,there will almost inevitably be many,many more closures of car production plants worldwide,hopefully we shouldn't be hit too badly as imported cars will become increasingly expensive as the £ weakens thus hopefully making it more sensible to manufacture at home?
Sorry, strayed off topic and onto soapbox but Italo has a knack of starting long running threads which naturally tend to diversify somewhat as they run.
Personally,I would love to own and run an economical,inexpensive,practical 3 wheeler commuter such as proposed,I feel that educating Joe public will be a rather more difficult task though.
, Cheers mate
Italo
Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 10th February 21:30
http://www.kldenergy.com/KLDOverview.html
http://www.kldenergy.com/motortechology_functional...
very interesting electric motor tecnology for a scooter based design......
http://www.kldenergy.com/motortechology_functional...
very interesting electric motor tecnology for a scooter based design......
Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 11th February 08:37
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