ListerBell Stratos

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renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Sunday 28th April 2019
quotequote all
Something a little bit different I guess...



Before Christmas 2016 I was thinking about getting an Audi R8 V10 because I wanted something sensible that I could use and enjoy without every journey being "all about the car" but never really bit the bullet because as much as I liked the idea of "sensible" it seemed awfully grown up.

I also had been through to the Lotus dealer a few times to look at the conveyor belt of new Elise and Exige models but only really fancied the newer and more extreme looking Exiges and they seemed awfully pricey and there always seemed the prospect of a better one on the horizon.

So, I seem to have headed off at a bit of a left-field tangent and I put a deposit on a factory build of a ListerBell Lancia Stratos.

The Stratos was always the 1st WTF car I remember seeing on telly when watching rallying on telly and I am actually really excited.

My car will be a Group 4 replica with the full painted Alitalia livery of Car number 4 from the 1977 Tour de Corse.



The Alitalia scheme was always what I associated with the rally car and I had in my mind from the outset that I wanted the more aggressive looking "square arch" bodywork. Fortunately there was one factory car that competed in that configuration so.... lucky me!!

Engine was always intended to be a totally rebuilt and refreshed 3.2 litre Alfa Romeo V6 Busso on individual throttle bodies with a programmable ECU which will allow me to have a couple of sensible maps for MOT and road use and a full-on pop/bang/crackle flame spitting rally mode for fun and should be around 320BHP.

It will be built LHD as per the originals and will have the full Group 4 rally dashboard as per the original. No half measures smile



I ticked the box for the big brake upgrade, double adjustable Nitron suspension, roof scoop, chin spoiler, quad driving light pod with twin lower fog lights. After the IVA I'm going to run it with a Group 4 style decat exhaust system with custom manifolds. Externally it will have the full decal set as per the original car.

The bugging thing was the wait.... 12 months before anything even started to happen after paying the deposit.

Anyhow.. obviously no pics of the car at this stage but I did buy a 1/18 scale model of the very car so have some pics of what it will (hopefully) look like.

It will be interesting to look back at the end of the project and see how much of the above plan comes to fruition.









I've a few more pics of progress to date incase anyone is interested.




Edit to add.

During the build I've kept an online photo-blog of sorts to keep track of the car's progress. I've quite enjoyed doing it even tho it's obviously a work-in-progress. It's for my own benefit but I guess will be handy to point anyone to when it comes time to sell it.

http://stratosstr.com/







Edited by renmure on Tuesday 18th May 19:31

renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Sunday 28th April 2019
quotequote all
Zilla said:
Are you going to Stoneleigh?
Should be there on the Sunday.
Believe my running chassis should be a main part of the display.

renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Sunday 28th April 2019
quotequote all
The original Stratos was powered by a Ferrari Dino 2.4 V6 engine.



I was set on having an Italian V6 at the heart of the car and the Alfa Romeo V6 Busso engine seemed perfect. It was fairly straight forward to source a 2.5 litre or even 3 litre engine but I had my heart and head set on the much rarer 3.2 litre one.

It was getting really frustrating trying to source a good 3.2 GT engine with all the expensive bits so for Christmas 2017 I did a daft thing and I took the decision to cut out the middle-man and just buy a car. That meant I got the correct gearbox, the LSD and all the proper ancillaries I needed as a package... all wrapped in lovely Italian bodywork and leather seats smile

To be fair, it had rotten sills and wasn't going to pass another MOT without a lot of expense. I've physically never seen the car and didn't actually see the engine till January 2018 when it was fitted into the running chassis.

In truth, it didn't really matter how great the condition of the engine and gearbox was since the plan was always to have it sent away to a specialist Alfa engine builder in Cardiff to be totally stripped, rebuilt with whatever higher performance bits it needs and it would effectively come back zero timed and better than new.









And with the engine being put on a pallet before heading to Cardiff.



Edited by renmure on Sunday 28th April 22:53

renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Sunday 28th April 2019
quotequote all
selnic said:
Any excuse for a gratuitous pic of the real deal.

Donington Park paddock approx 1983
No excuse needed biggrin

renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Sunday 28th April 2019
quotequote all
Zilla said:
I'll be up at the show on Sunday, nosing around the blue 3.0L customer build they have for sale on the LB stand. I really hadn't planned on buying an LB until late next year, but they come up so rarely and this may be an excuse to jump the queue. Gotta convince the wife that I need another car

Great choice on the 3.2. The alfa engine is just beautiful to behold.

What wheels did you go for? Did you get the chance to drive prior to making the decision?

Would love a chance pick your brains if you are around.
I love the idea that I'd be able to offer you any meaningful advice. I'm a mechanical numptie who couldn't build a tower out of lego smile

I went into this knowing exactly what I wanted out of if but without the vision or imagination to go too far off-piste. I ended up ticking all the upgrade boxes to get a top spec car and having the 1/18th scale model of exactly what I want to end up with is perfect for my mentality. Wheels will be yellow coffin spokes as per the model. I'll probably end up getting a cheap R-suffix 1977 plate for the car.

I didn't drive it before making the decision to get one. The only sensible thing I did was practice getting in and out of one that was on display. It only took a couple of attempts to do it without either both hands, or one hand and a knee, being on the ground... so that swung it in favour smile

I did have a demo passenger ride in one tho. I was sold on the idea at the point when we went over a humpback bridge and all wheels were off the ground. I've decent experience of owning and driving a good selection of fast cars and the demo car felt more than adequate wink

The blue Chardonnet car looks lovely. I'm looking forward to seeing that on display as well. There should be a whole gaggle of cars outside on display as well.

I put my 1/18th model next to a couple of other 1/18th cars I've had to get an overall view of the size





renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Sunday 28th April 2019
quotequote all
So... back to engines.

This techy all goes totally over my head so I'm going to stick mainly with pics.

Apparently the engine builder said my engine was in really great condition straight out the Alfa. It certainly came with a comprehensive service history and lots of regular oil changes.

I'd have to read through the email that the engine builder sent me to say exactly what was done but off the top of my head I know there were steel bits, reinforced bits and re-profiled bits to cope with the expected power over standard.


















































Edited by renmure on Monday 29th April 20:57

renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Monday 29th April 2019
quotequote all
Zombie said:
Are you sure the GT has an LSD? They didn't come with one as standard, but most have been retrofitted with a Q2 or Quaife torsion type diff.
Ah ok, mine must have been retrofitted as it has a Q2 diff fitted and again that had a refresh and the engine builder mention resetting something as part of the work. Like I say, the techy stuff goes over my head. Every day’s a school day smile

renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Monday 29th April 2019
quotequote all
Glad there's a bit of interest.

Mrs R thought it sounded like a daft idea, especially when I said it would have pop up headlights, lots of additional lights at the front and rally stickers all over it. She came round when I explained it still had lots of space for luggage and the weekly shopping. It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission I guess biggrin

I'd love to say something informative about the chassis but as ever the interesting stuff flies well over my head, so.... from the LB site:

The base of the car is a torsionally rigid CAD designed space frame chassis which is constructed using a semi monocoque central structure, tubular section front and rear cradles and a full integral roll cage. The chassis has been designed to mimic certain elements of the original Lancia’s appearance whilst adding in some modern day safety features along with a few additional creature comforts.

In terms of chassis colour I decided to go for anthracite and also optioned the lowered floorpan below the seats which gives an extra couple of cm of extra head room. I'm 6ft and sitting in the demo car didn't present any problems but I guess with a helmet on I might appreciate the extra room.










renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Tuesday 30th April 2019
quotequote all
rxe said:
3.2 is a stonking engine, I have three of them (GT, GTA, 166). What are you going to do about the manifold cats? You can get very nice replacement manifolds from Wizard....with no cats. Makes a huge difference to the operating temperature.

Also have a think about engine management. Working 3.2 ECUs are like hen's teeth. If you don't need all the integration for the 3.2 (OE instruments, etc) then you might be better off with something aftermarket and flogging the original one (with keys and blue box) for about £700....
Yeah, it should sound awesome.

The plan is to do away with the Alfa manifolds completely and have a full custom tubular exhaust fabricated to match the original Stratos GP4 twin exhaust, so no cats whatever and with minimal silencing at the end of the tailpipes. I'll need a spare silenced and catted replacement system once for IVA and then again for MOT but can live with that. I hope to have pics of the exhaust and ITBs over the weekend.

Engine management will be using an SCS Delta 800 ECU package with a bespoke ECU / Engine harness.

The throttle body conversion will utilise BMW M3 ITBs with 6 injectors and Audi R8 Coil packs.

Vroom Vroom!! biggrin






Edited by renmure on Tuesday 1st October 15:22

renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Tuesday 30th April 2019
quotequote all
markiii said:
interesting to see what was once seen as a short twitchy wheelbase is actually very little different to an elise
I think a lot of the more modern aspects of the LB cars are designed to iron out some of the more "interesting" handling characteristics of the originals.

Wiki says the of the original cars:

The front suspension initially used a double-A-arm setup, as on many purpose-built race cars. But early racing failures forced a hasty redesign. The arms were replaced by a MacPherson strut capped by a strong box structure.

Where as LB say

The front suspension is based around an aircraft grade billet aluminium upright this is located by means of a double wishbone assembly which is fully adjustable for castor, camber, toe and ride height. Damping is provided by Nitron coil over dampers with single way adjustment as standard.
The rear suspension is again based around an anodised billet alloy upright which is inkeeping with the original Stratos. This is controlled by a strut type rear suspension system with an adjustable lower wishbone. Damping in this case is provided by a bespoke Nitron strut and the suspension is adjustable for camber, toe and ride height. Adjustable anti roll bars are fitted front and rear. All pivots are PTFE lined rod end and spherical bearings for minimal stiction and adjustability. The springs fitted are dual rate to allow comfortable progression under normal conditions but with increased resistance under hard cornering scenarios.

I'm guessing it will still turn on a sixpence but hopefully more by design than by default. smile

I'll dig out some pics of my suspension set-up. Certainly a work of art.

renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Wednesday 1st May 2019
quotequote all
shalmaneser said:
Would love to see some pics of the suspension setup also!
Some pics to give an idea of the quality.























renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Wednesday 1st May 2019
quotequote all
456mgt said:
Can I ask why you chose LB over Hawk? I regularly toy with the notion of having one built, but put off by the fact that better drivers than me say it's a dangerous little sod. If they've genuinely tamed the snap oversteer, I'm all ears. Chapeau to you for taking the plunge.
The only consideration for me was knowing exactly what I was going to end up with. I've got no skills to bring to the table in terms of car building and have no interest in taking up a new hobby or spending years in a shed or workshop learning how to build a car. All my research indicated that the Hawk cars needed a lot more fettling and sourcing of donor parts from various places and are more old-tech rather than being a pretty much fully developed and modern stand alone product like the LB. To be fair, that's reflected in the much increased cost of the LB but it made sense for me.

renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Thursday 2nd May 2019
quotequote all
MKnight702 said:
I presume everyone has seen the Autocar review on YouTube, it's been there some years.
If not, here's the link copied from a post above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvs5jRi4h80

My understanding is that Autocar originally intended to do a fairly general overview of a number of cars from other manufacturers and the LB STR was only to play a small static part in the affair. However, when Steve Sutcliffe drove the LB car on the day he was so smitten that the whole focus of the piece changed to be totally on that car. It certainly got a heap of good positive publicity.

Unfortunately, as I discovered when I first made general enquiries way back at the start of the process, the prices given in the article were a bit unintentionally misleading and even at that time a few years ago you would be struggling to end up with anything other than a basic spec car for anywhere near these figures.

Another gratuitous pic:



renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Friday 3rd May 2019
quotequote all
For anyone still awake:

I guess this is the heart transplant part.











renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Friday 3rd May 2019
quotequote all
HM-2 said:
MKnight702 said:
Nice looking engine, a set of 3 twin throttle bodies sticking up would top that off nicely!
https://store.jenvey.co.uk/alfa-v6-24v-ahmotorspor...
scratchchin
Jenvey ITBs was the original plan for my engine but the LB system has been developed to be better and more aesthetically in keeping with the original engine.

renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Friday 3rd May 2019
quotequote all
james_tigerwoods said:
Lovely - Absolutely amazing... However... I know you're keeping it authentic, but I'd have gone for RHD just to make it easier to drive in the UK...
The LB chassis is designed to accommodate both LHD and RHD at the fabrication stage so converting from one to the other isn’t really that much of an issue for someone in the future.

My thinking was to keep things as authentic looking as possible and with the likely expectation that when I come to sell it in the future that the European market will be where it will end up. Either that or if it's a UK buyer they would probably fancy the authentic LHD aspect as well.

RHD would be more sensible on the road I guess, but I'm not really meaning to be overly sensible here.


Edited by renmure on Friday 3rd May 18:42

renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Monday 6th May 2019
quotequote all
Another brief update.

Some detail pics of my car and of the ITB set-up and the GP4 exhaust.

















Fair to say it got a lot of attention biggrin





renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Tuesday 7th May 2019
quotequote all
Bright Halo said:
And the best
“I reckon that’s Andy Murray’s car”
biggrin

renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Friday 10th May 2019
quotequote all
456mgt said:
Directly as a result of this thread. Went up to Stoneleigh with the aim of ordering a build. Was told it was 18 months wait for supply of a kit and 3 years if I wanted them to build one for me.. So I turned around and bought Nick's blue one. What an awesome, awesome little car. Properly hardcore. Love it!

Fantastic. That's the way to do it!!

I was actually standing speaking to Craig when you came over to tell him you had bought Nick's car.

20 mins earlier I was saying to Nick that I thought his asking price was too low (not to flatter his build but in recognition that there was a lot of interest and you couldn't now build his car for much less than he was asking and then you would still have a 3 year wait)

This has been a bit of a masochistic journey for me. I've no patience and, like you, just want the car and want it now. I remember the deflation I felt on learning that back then it was a 2 year wait for a turnkey car. When I was first on the LB stand a few years ago there was an Alitalia car on display. If it had been for sale I would have done exactly as you have and just bought it. Bizarrely .. in retrospect I'm glad I didn't because I've enjoyed being part of the build journey more than I would ever have expected and my OCD is satisfied knowing that my car will be pretty close to the mental picture I had for it.. but I'm jealous as hell that you can jump in yours and have a blast on the back roads this weekend. Enjoy!!



renmure

Original Poster:

4,213 posts

223 months

Friday 10th May 2019
quotequote all
200Plus Club said:
£40-50k ish built as a decent spec I think but seriously good value in terms of holding their money generally. So few come up for sale and seem to fly off shelves.
You need to be a wee bit careful with over generalising the prices. I'm certainly no expert but I know that over the years there have been various kit so a Stratos replica that's for sale today could be a LB, a Hawk or one of another 2 or 3 manufacturers and the value in them is pretty much determined by the individual spec of each car. LB prices will be leading the way.

Eg, you can simply use a £500 engine from a 2.5 litre Alfa donor car or go down the route I've gone and spend £2500 on the engine then a multiple of that again taking it to be rebuilt and fit the ITBs etc... or you can fit a crate 3.5 litre V6 from the Lotus Evora and, if you're minded, supercharge it. Combine that with the various options for exhaust, brakes, suspension, trim, paint etc for each individual car and you can see how it's difficult to be too general.

My head is in the sand and my fingers are in my ears in relation to the cost of mine by the time I get it in the garage but it will certainly (err, hopefully?) start with a 6. I'm not expecting to lose money if/when I come to sell it.



Edited by renmure on Friday 10th May 23:02