As 2020 hasn't been awful enough yet = my £750 Citroen C6!

[Kitchski]

Right, that's the 'OMG, what JEOPARDY' title out of the way. Yes, I have bought myself (another) cheap old Citroen. These are the best kinds of Citroens, except the SM of course. Oh, and the DS. And I suppose 2CVs...none of these are 'cheap' anymore. Anyway, yes. I have realised the life-long (well, since 2005, anyway) ambition of owning a Citroen C6. Alexis Sayle had one (he might even still have one), and so did Jacques Charac (probably), so it stands to reason I should, too.

As with any specialist, or certainly any old (relatively speaking for most) specialist car, the motto is normally "Buy the best you can afford!" It's what I wrote in some TVR buyers guides that I wrote recently, and it's what I tell prospective TVR buyers if they're the sort who don't know which end of the spanner to pick daisies with.
You buy the best you, because invariably, some poor bd has already shelled out on all the things that cost a lot to keep going, and now you can reap the rewards of their investment by buying said car for less than the last bill they paid. It's sensible stuff, and with specialist cars, specialist knowledge is key. A full service history means nothing if it's not been carried out on the dot, and with specialists who know those cars...whatever they may be. Alfa Romeos, probably.
Then when the time comes to sell, you'll have simply taken a tidy car, and paid to maintain it to that same condition you bought it. Your car could well have appreciated in this timeframe (if you bought wisely), which negates any expenditure you put into it, and effectively what you've got is a savings account you can drive (or polis....sorry, detail - that's the term now, right?)
What you do NOT do is buy a cheap banger, because this will almost certainly be financial suicide. You'll have all the headaches of a car that has not been looked after all its life, and the bills that go with it (not to mention the inconvience of breaking down somewhere and being late for whatever it was you were driving to). Yes, the car is cheap to begin with, but give it an inderminate period of time, and you'll have spent more than you would have done, had you just bought a good one in the first place. You'll also have shortened your life by a number of years, depending on the number of times you've failed to proceed at the side of the road (or before you even leave your driveway) as a result of the stresses caused by trying to justify to everybody that, even though you're late, you still bought wisely.

Anyway, I did buy wisely, and I present my 2007 (yes, I know it's a 59-plate...wait for it) Citroen C6 2.7HDI Exclusive, finished in Storm Grey with optional lounge and concert packs. Over 150k miles on it, and £750 paid (actually £760 - I insisted on paying for the fella's train ticket home, seeing as he DELIVERED it to my door!)

This is how it arrived (as in the condition, not the method of transportation):






It even still has MoT! I mean, it won't get another one easily, but until Sunday, it's got a ticket! Am I jammy? Yes, I think it's fair to say I am.

How did it all come about? Well, I wasn't looking for another car. As some of you will know, I've got a fair few on the go already, amongst which is my daily driver C4 VTS. It's given me no grief over the 2.5years I've run it, so I do feel guilty at the prospect of retiring it and selling it on to what will no doubt prove to be its demise in the next year or two. Cars like that just don't often end up in the right hands, sadly. But, on the other hand; C6. I mean, come on...C6!

The C6 is a car I've long wanted, but like most people, I go in and out of wanting particular cars. One minute I'll really want a C6, then a DS5. Then I'll want a Civic Type-R, then an RX-8, and then a Honda Prelude 2.2 5th gen. Then I was looking at Audi A2s, and BMW 7-series; You know, the ones with MASSIVE bork potential. They're a bit of me!
But, all that tends to happen is the idea is gone as quickly as it appeared, and I carry on plodding around in whatever I was plodding around in. My daily transport only ever tends to be something to get me around - I'm not meant to like it. The C4 has been unusual in this regard, as despite the fact that it's actually rather crap to drive, I do rather like it. I don't need it to be engaging to drive, I need it to have a good stereo, effective air-con, and great seats. And it does, it has all three.
However, this time, I received a text message from a mate of mine. He was asking about C6s, and what I knew about them (read; very little) as he'd seen them getting cheaper and cheaper, and wanted some comfort and refinement to go some way to erasing the years he's spent bombing around in a little VW Polo diesel. The engineer in him wanted something interesting, rather than the usual 3-box German options, and the C6 appealed.
He'd spotted an Iron Grey Exclusive on eBay, sat at £1100. After an exchange of messages, we agreed to go halves on it, to lessen the potential financial fallout when all the electricity shorts out through the nearside from hydraulic tyre, and the ECUs duckfit. The car was at an auction clearance place, which had plenty of bad feedback. It appeared to have a big dent in one of the doors, and was riding on a space-saver. All the warning signs were there, so to be sensible, we limited our max bid to £1600 (as opposed to thinking "fk that!" and legging it)
In the end, the car shot up to £2600 rather quickly. "Not to worry", thinks I. It's probably a bullet dodged. My mate still wants one, so I say we'll keep our ear to the ground.

The next day, the car I ended up buying appeared on Facebook, in a C6 group. It was a semi-social post from a guy acknowledging that he loved his C6, but had decided it needed too much work for him, and was going to punt it on eBay, spares or repair. Of course, I messaged him, asking him about the car and whether he wanted it to go through on eBay (to realise its financial potential), or whether he'd listen to offers. He was going to list it at only £800 reserve!
Meanwhile, the Iron Grey car resurfaces on eBay, having been relisted. To be honest, £2600 seemed far too much for what it was, and the original auction ended fairly suspiciously. Now it was back on, this time with a shorter listing. It ended up being very short indeed - a few hours - before it was pulled as 'no longer available'. No sooner had I messaged my mate to tell him it was there, it was no longer.
Facebook car stalls, because I forget to reply to the very friendly and helpful owner. He's owned the car a few years, and has covered around 70k miles in it. He loves it to bits, but I suspect he couldn't continue to pump money into it, and was resigned to selling it. He offered it up in the owners group first as he knew that if it went to eBay, it would likely be bought by a breaker and broken for spares. He acknowledged he'd probably get £1500 or more, but would rather sell for less knowing that it went to a good home. I had a lot of respect for that, to be honest. He was honest and upfront, and explained that the car was broken, but still driveable.
Back in eBay land, guess what?! The Iron Grey C6 returns, again with a short listing. This time it's spotted by my mate, who decides to have a punt himself, as I'm leaning towards Facebook car (potentially ending in a situation where both of us buy banger C6s). He only had around £1300 to play with at this time, and I suspected the car would go for £1600. In the end it finishes at £1589, and he's outbid. Dammit.

Facebook car, however, is going well. I ask whether £800 reserve is the minimum he'd accept for the car, or just a starting point. He replies that he'd sell it for £750 to me, as it'd save him on eBay fees! It's a situation of astonishing honesty and integrity the likes of which I've never experienced in the car-buying world! It all seems a bit too good to be true, but I'm not getting my hopes up, just in case. I'm also in the fortunate position of need needing this car, as I already have a decent working car.
But, Friday last week rolls around, and at around 3:30pm, he pulls up outside my workshop! I send him the funds, take him to the station, and bang! I'm a Citroen C6 owner!)
I stay on an hour to give it a wipe with some spray-on detailer (it's filthy dirty, but I don't have time to clean it properly). It does come up pretty well, though.




Obviously, I've got a to-do list. The number of people who say only buy the best you can afford can nag a bit, especially when other C6 owners say the same thing, but in fairness, I did buy the best I could afford; I didn't have any more money! However, I know there will be those who are absolutely aghast that somebody would be this stupid, so I'm prepared for the comments. I got the same when I bought a Chimaera with my girlfriend, then aged 24 and 22!

So, what does my C6 need?

• The parking brake doesn't work. It's electric (naturally), but rather than having servo motors on the rear calipers, it has a motor above the rear axle when pulls on the handbrake cables. One of these cables had to be cut as it locked on....so, yeah. Some problems there. Oh, and the unit is coded to the car; You can't fit a used one.
• The gearbox. It's an Aisin (a subsiduary of Toyota, no less) 6-spd auto box, reknowned for their smoothness and longevity....and for the fact that the 'sealed for life' element of the service instructions turned out to be horsecack. They need oil changes, but because the manufacturers said they didn't, many boxes are a-borked. Mine might not be...yet, but it's certainly not happy. It displaces a loud THUD! going into reverse (unless stone-cold), and once hot it can slip between 2nd and 3rd ratios (solved by backing off the throttle to allow to box to catch up, which results in an equal and opposite-direction THUD! Oh, and if you pull up at the lights, it'll stall, unless you knock it back into neutral. Good times. The fix could be as simple as a few oil changes, but it could also be a mechanical issue (a hydraulic valve block is a cool £600).
• The suspension is great, and works perfectly...except when it isn't, and doesn't. I don't know yet know whether I've experienced the ride as it's meant to be, but when you set off it's certainly soft and cossetting. I wouldn't say it's obscenely-smooth; think halfway between a Xantia and a BX, and you're about there. However, after you've hit a few bumps, you get a BEEP and the display proudly states "Suspension Faulty." At this point, the ride becomes firmer. Not ridiculous, just Audi A6 firm. After the gentle cossetting nature of the C6 ride, it's quite a noticeable change, and does spoil things. I'm hoping it's a sensor...somewhere. Probably.
• Air-con - doesn't work. Gets mighty stuffy in there, mighty quickly. Roll on cold weather!
• Wheels - need a refurb. They're beat to death, the tyres are all tired, and I don't think the geo is right.
• Offside headlamp needs rubbing down, as it's a bit yellowed. The driving/indicator lamp in the bumper is too, but that's internal, so it'll need replacing.
• Nearside mirror is knackered. Anti-glare stuff has burst, and you can barely see out of it.
• Needs new gas struts on the bootlid.
• Keys are a bit tired, and the blades don't stay folded in.
• It'll need a service, and a few tired bits of trim and equipment refreshing.
• It's a four-seater; There's not space in the middle seat for a cat, like alone a human...:

That's quite a list, right? Well, it's not as big as what's good!

• Everything electrical works, so far! The auto-wipers go skitz, just like the C4 ones (annoying, as my 200k mile Peugeot 407's worked perfectly).
• The comfort. Oh man, the comfort!
• It goes well - better than I imagined.
• It's complete.
• The paintwork is actually not bad. Needs every product under the sun throwing at it, but it should respond positively.
• It does have service history, stamped up to around 100k.
• It has a phone.
• It has a heads-up display.
• It has the lounge-pack, meaning it has the TGV-style rear seats.
• It has the concert-park, meaning it has the JBL sound system...which so far doesn't actually sound that great. Worse than the standard C4 one, in fact.
• Directional-headlamps work
• loads of other stuff I thought of before, but forgot when I got this far down. I'll have to start doing Doug DeMuro-style videos on it (I put the C6 on Twitter the day I bought it, and he actually 'liked' it!)

So, nothing left to say except:

"What's the worst that could happen?"

[Kitchski]

Oh, yes...the eBay C6.

Having written a post about my new car, a chap replied who had just won an Iron Grey C6 on eBay. Small world!

He didn't have such a good journey home...



Bullet dodged!

[Kitchski]

Bloody hell, I turned my back and came back to a million comments! I thought I'd get one or two "Oh jesus, what are you playing it?!" The C6 has love! That's nice.

Uggers said:

Brilliant!

The fact it arrived at your door under its own power for that amount of money means it's a bargain!

Whats the worse case scenario fixing it up wise?

Erm, aside from any unknowns, a completely borked gearbox, £1000 worth of handbrake gubbins and something bad for the suspension.

gman88667733 said:

That is a fantastic car. Definitely in need of some attention, but if you manage to get most of that sorted, you've got a cracking car to waft around in!

I'd love to know how much the previous owner spend on maintenance before he got rid!

This is the viewpoint I've taken, too. It's nice even now. The handbrake is a non-event really, I wouldn't even use it if it worked. The suspension ruins it a bit, but the gearbox is the main problem.

Oh, and around £3.5k

P5BNij said:

Absolutely love these - thread duly bookmarked!

Just looking on Autotrader, there are only seven for sale on there in the UK, blimey.... they're all diesels and autos, did they ever make a manual / petrol model of the C6...?

They did, in a manner. There was a 3.0 V6 petrol initially; I already have this engine in another car and it's lovely, but in the heavy C6 I think it was a bit weedy, though I bet it was silky smooth and quiet! This was also auto-only. The engine itself is the ES9, which was used in the Xantia; C5; XM; 406 Coupe...even the Renault Clio V6!
They also produced it with a manual 'box, but only with the 2.2 4-cyl HDI engine. To be fair, it's probably entirely adequate, but I think the auto suits it better, and I'm normally manual-only.

Argleton said:

What's the whole "2007" 59 reg thing?

Ah, yes. Forgot that bit.

It seems that although it's a 2009 plate, it was actually built in 2007. When I first posted a picture of it in C6 circles, one of the stalwarts of the group immediately said it was one of the 2007/59 cars. If it was a genuine 2009 car, it would have had some additional chrome tit-bits fitted.

It seems many C6s are registered with a 'G*' local identifier, as many were registered to Citroen UK before they went to a dealership. My better half used to work for a Citroen dealer, and she said Citroen gave one to every dealer in the UK to use under their contract-motoring programme. It seems there were quite a few built that they couldn't shift. I mean, who'd have thought that of a £38k Citroen!?

drdino said:

Can you not code it using Lexia?

Diag-box? Yes, you can code certain components with it, but the handbrake module can only be coded once; you can't lift one from another car (easily) and re-code it.

mattyprice4004 said:

Brilliant, what a bargain!

I'm not so taken on the looks, but a whole chunk of car for the money.
I'd service the gearbox ASAP, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how those Aisin boxes seem to 'come back to life' when some money is spent on them.

I love the looks. It's one of those cars I keep turning around to look at when I'm nearby. It's taken me owning one to fully appreciate the design, because up to now, I've not really spent any time at all near them.
I've heard this of the Aisin boxes. I bought a vat of oil yesterday!

croissant said:

I'd certainly consider a C6 as a daily for myself. Pretty sure I've seen petrol versions, but I may be wrong?!

As above; They did, but very rare. In any case, the diesel almost suits it better.

MagicalTrevor said:

I also have a soft spot for one of these... and I've just cleared a space on my driveway.

It's a shame they didn't make an estate version, how fantastic would that be!?

It would spoil the looks, though, and people don't buy big estate cars anymore. Mind you, nobody bought the saloon, either!

cammmy said:

I have one of these that I got from my dad and it also had the same thud. Follow the procedure to drain and fill with the correct fluid (important!), Drive it around for half an hour and then do it again. Mine was fine after. You will need Lexia to monitor the trans temp but you can get the software and cable for about £40 on eBay.

The door connectors seem to be a common problem, so if you notice the window not dropping when you open the door, or a speaker not working, give the connector a clean. If this happens, be careful opening and closing the door as you can shatter the glass.

Biggest issue was the electronic turbo actuator. This is not specific to the C6, but pretty much every modern diesel. When is goes, it will drive okay when cold but then go into limp mode when hot (though without actually telling you). On mine, it was the front one. The service manual says it's not replaceable and the whole turbo unit needs to be swapped. I got a recon actuator from eBay and swapped it in the car. Very tight and tricky to do but possible. Only use one from a C6! Even though many cars use the 2.7hdi. the actuators are different between them.

Something is likely wrong with the stereo. For me the sound quality is better than my '04 Phaeton but not as good as the '09 RS6.

You can chip tune these easily to around 230-240bhp

Give it some love and take it for a road trip, you will fall in love with it. I'd just decided to keep mine when I saw a V10 Phaeton and couldn't resist the idea of having two, twin turbo 10's

Good info, thanks. The stereo isn't awful, it's just I expected it to be really good, and it's OK. The one in the C4 VTS is better (assuming mine's not broken). But I look forward to road trips!

Kawasicki said:

I’d like one as a cheap family car, but that “seat” in the middle of the rear bench is tiny, it’s a very large 4 seater, and I need seating for 5.

Yes, it's really not a seat. The cars without the 'Lounge Pack' may have more room there, but it doesn't look like it at first glance. The rear seats seem to be huge armchairs at the expense of the middle seat. A bummer, as I have a family of five, so the MPV will be staying for family duties! This is more a ridiculous solo daily driver.

OldGermanHeaps said:

regarding the handbrake, if you cant recode a used one via lexia, you can use a tool called carprog to copy the eeprom content off your defective one to one from the scrappy, or if yours is mechanically broken but electrically ok you can swap the pcb from your one to a scrapyard part, or if the pcb is faulty you might get away with desoldering your microcontroller or eeprom off your old unit and swapping them with a scrapyard spare.
Much of the time when people tell you something cant be done what they really mean is they are too lazy, or greedy or have their hands tied by company policy. Everything is fixable if you are determined enough.

That's interesting to know, thanks. I'm hoping the unit is fine, and that it just needed a new cable......possibly.

ajprice said:

I never realised these had frameless windows. Now I love them a little bit more, and I always thought they were cool .

Frameless laminated windows, no less.



Cheers everybody, nice to see the big Citroen has some love on here! It's the opposite to what the whole PH 'ethos' is about, too. Both this and my C4 VTS have a speed limiter function, where you tell it what speed you don't want to exceed, and it won't let you once you get to it, regardless of throttle input (unless you hit the microswitch, buried deep in the carpet).
In the C4, I'm forever on the limiter, but in the C6, I find myself sitting below it. You drive in a totally different way, and you're much more chilled out as a result.

I love it.

[Kitchski]

P5BNij said:

Ah but.... but.... in some ways, the C6 is exactly what PH is all about.....

Oh, I agree! But the majority think speed and power are everything.

SVX said:

What a thing! Always been a fan of the styling and Gallic quirkiness of these, didn't realise the Auto transmission was a Japanese unit, for some reason I thought it was ZF. After following your BX threads, I'm sure you'll be able to work through your job list - enjoy!

Cheers. I didn't realise it was, either! I knew it was Aisin, but I didn't know Aisin was Asian.

I can be quite slow to pick things up.

littlebasher said:

Magnificent

I'm in

Didn't realise I left it unlocked again, get out!

CarlosV8 said:

Awesome work, as always! Before seeing the whole thread title I was expecting an Avantime though

Did I say I was getting one at Beaulieu? Can't remember now.

[Kitchski]

boyse7en said:

C6 has been on my radar since the last of my XMs finally died.
They were too expensive then, but i may well be tempted if I can get something similar to yours. I like a project, and a big Cit is nearly always a project.

This is the biggest Citroen I've ever owned. Previous biggest was a Xantia 1.9TD estate. This is a bit different to that, in a million electronic ways.

bqf said:

I understand this poor guy has had to put it up for sale on eBay. I really feel for him, because he took a gamble and it didn't pay off. That's brave though right? I think he's a legend.

Yeah, it is me

Ha! I respect anybody for having a punt, and not being put off. It didn't work out, but no doubt next time it will, and come your final days you'll look back and smile when you think about how many more risks did come off than the ones that didn't...unless the risks don't pay off at all, in which case your final days may arrive more quickly and in a more self-inflicted way than you'd have hoped. If my C6 goes Pete Tong....comin' to a bridge near you: Me!

[Kitchski]

Well, as you probably all guessed, things have not been well with the big Citroen. I pressed it into a week's service (because that's how much MoT was left on it) in which I was effectively giving it a chance to show me everything that isn't right with it.

And, as I think we all assumed, the week wasn't without issue. I knew this was a risk, and that it was a risk that could bite me in the arse. And my arse has been well and truly bitten! Didn't think it would happen in the first WEEK, though!

You'll all judge, sure. You'll all tell me that you saw something like this coming. Well, I can't say I blame you. Perhaps I'm the fool in all this?

OK, so what's happened? Well, there's this little piece of rubber underneath the bumper, kind of like an air deflector. And, well....look at it!



Seems that when I parked that big long noise over a kerb, I forgot the car would drop itself after I got out! It raises when you open the door, too, before lowering again when you start the engine (unless you're on uneven terrain). This bit of trim was getting squashed and pulled and squashed again. I had to lay on the floor to push it back together! Disaster!



Wow! I hope I don't get any more issues like that, otherwise I'm going to start believing all the big French luxo-barge horror stories to be true!

[Kitchski]

CharlesdeGaulle said:

Yeah, see... we all told you... no, wait...

I really like these. I know they're old now but are such refreshingly different cars from the mainstream.

Old? It's the newest car I own!

S100HP said:

Change those screws on the plate please!

Those are quite far down on my list of pressing issues, to be fair.

MEames said:

Big Citroen’s are great... Always fancied one of these but having an aversion to diesel there are probably about 5 to choose from and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a petrol for sale!

I’ve often wondered how hard it would be to buy a cheap 407 coupe With the 3.0 V6 and swap the engine / gearbox over - they are very similar cars from what I understand but switching fuels perhaps not straightforward?

Would make a great basis for a EV conversion also I think - like it’s grandfather the DS which is Also somewhat let down by the powerplant.

I'm not particularly swayed one way of the other, fuel-wise. The engine in this is smooth and grunty, but to be honest it's almost immaterial how it's powered, as the engine isn't the centre piece, it's just the means of moving everything else around.
You could try switching it to a 3.0 V6, but being that the petrol engine is weedier than the diesel, it'd be a silly idea what with all the work involved. The diesel suits it pretty well, in fairness.
Would make a good EV, I agree.

Mezzanine said:

God, I hope you and your family are alright after that horrendous incident?

The counselling is helping, thanks.

Shadow R1 said:

Shouldn't you be taking to youtube and telling the whole world about this failed oem part.

No, because people would just leave a comment saying "Yeh wel what do u expcet its a fRench car there st" While having not watched any of the video at all.

You're right, though. I could have been killed!

carinaman said:

Only one of them needs sorting.

See, this is my thinking!

robsco said:

Mezzanine said:

I saw a white C6 earlier today.

Surely a rarity?

Couldn’t get a picture

They are like hen’s teeth, there is one in the midlands that I know of which is used by a chap who specialises in C6s. I nearly bought one from him last month but it was just a shade too expensive.

Rare for a reason, I would say!

hidetheelephants said:

Do you have to get special trousers tailored to accommodate your very large testicles? Respect is due. I'd like one of these but I'm not brave/stupid enough.

Regular Matalan stuff is fine!

Seriously though, it's no more risky than a 5-series of the same era, IMO.

[Kitchski]

I suppose I should probably give a quick update of the barge of despair. Luckily there haven't been any further disasters like the one under the front bumper, but time is pressing on, and I wanted to have this on the road early November. So far, I've done nothing to make that happen, except spend money on parts.

The first thing to note is that the £750 C6 is no longer really a £750 C6. This is no surprise, though the car did actually work when I bought it, and it did have an MoT, ergo it would qualify for the 'Shed Of The Week' column on PH (do they still do that?!) However, in order to make it a nice C6 that works properly, it was always going to need some expenditure. With fully sorted C6s still sitting in the £5-6k region, my aim is to keep my total spend under £2k. I have seen a C6 advertised for £1800 in the past; The guy wanted a quick sale, but there's no guarantee it wouldn't have needed all the other bits that this one does.

Still compared with what it would have cost new, it's an absolute steal :



And that was in 2006!

Well, I've been on the hunt for parts, both old and new. My costs have included

• Pair of genuine new repeater lamps (old ones look old) £13.78
• LED no plate lamps (old ones are all old and dim) £11
• x2 Washer jets (old ones look broken) £13.84ea
• Service kit (for when I do it next) about £65
• Boot lifters £24.99

Sub-total: £142.45

Most of that was stuff I chose to buy, rather than what HAD to be bought (perhaps the boot struts were a neccessity, actually - it's a heavy bootlid, and it hurts) In terms of what the car actually needed, I've now sourced:

• Front brake discs and pads £100
• Rear brake discs and pads (unique to a C6, which made finding them more fun than the Peugeot 407/C5 items I'd assumed I'd need) £97.47
• Front wheel bearing (I think the O/S is noisy) £24.12 This one is the same as a 407!
• Used C5 door mirror glass £15
• Used gearbox (complete), handbrake mech, front axle sensors and engine cover £520

Sub-total: £756.59

So far, my C6 is a £1649.04 car

The gearbox was quite a big purchase, but it seemed like a no-brainer. The issue with my current one is that although it might be resolved with a hundred oil changes, or even just a new valve block, it might also...not. The car has been to one C6 specialist prior to my owning it, who informed the owner that it could be the valve block, the box itself, or the torque converter causing the issue, so when a known-good 110,000 mile unit came up for sale in Bournemouth (complete with torque converter) it seemed silly not to just bite the bullet. Yes, it's a lot of work, but I can change the whole thing and hopefully be done with the issue. The car it came off was broken for spares by an established C6 forum member, and he'd run the car around for three months, so could vouch for its operational...goodness.
The other advantage was that I could raid this other C6 for a couple of other parts, chief among which was the handbrake mechanism, which is realistically the main component this is preventing the car from getting an MoT again. I'm on a crash course learning C6 handbrakes (well, C6 everything, to be honest!) and have made a prediction that, if I'm lucky, all the car needs is new handbrake cables, because I suspect that what has happened, is that one of the cables has seized, and that the motor has either had a duckfit trying to operate it, or the motor did indeed tension the cable, but it wouldn't release. Whatever happened, the N/S/R cable had been cut to allow the car to continue being used, but until I had a new cable, I couldn't test it.

So why didn't I just buy one from Citroen? Well, for two reasons. Firstly, they're backordered until such&such-a-date, and secondly they're THREE-HUNDRED AND FIFTY fkING POUNDS!! Which is nearly half the cost of the car, so no. I'm not doing that.
I could buy a new handbrake unit, but those are only a few quid more, at...oh, no, they're a grand. Sod. That.

With all this firmly bared in mind, the below seemed like a sensible purchase:



A new floor might be my second sensible purchase...

That's the box which houses the handbrake motor. There are two wheel cables, and one emergency release cable (I was trying to suss out how that would apply the handbrake - turns out it doesn't, it's purely a mechanical release in the event of a failure or flat battery).
Now, because of the coding of the unit (and the fact you can't re-code the unit) switching the entire assembly wasn't an option. Therefore, my plan was to remove the cover of the unit, learn how it works inside, and then harvest the cables from it.




Quite a clever little device, and actually quite simple in its design. Basically, the offside cable is fixed, with a nipple (lol) on either end; The nearside has a nipple at the caliper end as per normal, but it has a threaded insert on the motor end. The motor (labelled "Johnson" (lol)) rotates the bronze-coloured barrel, which is threaded internally, and when this winds, it draws the end of the nearside cable in, effectively pulling the handbrake on.
As it does so, the offside cable gets drawn in by the whole assembly trying to shift to the left, and this in turn pulls on the cable. Once the tension is taken up, the pull to both sides is equalises and they just continue to pull until the sensor (white plastic with a barcode and ribbon cable going to it) detects the maximum torque load has been reached, and shuts down the motor, locking it in the process.
When you release the park, the motor winds in the opposite direction, releasing the cable until the sensor decides it's slack enough to stop.

On my car, the nearside cable has been cut. I think this is because the cable had seized in the outer sleeve, which means either one of the following is the likely cause:

• The cable seized as the motor tried to pull it on, and the maximum torque load was reached before the brakes were fully applied, due to the resistance in the seized cable. The handbrake ECU (yes...really) had a duckfit, because the car could still move and went into OMGweHAzApHale mode, locking everything up and refusing to come out of park.
• The mechanism applied the handbrake, but the seized cable wouldn't release, and the sensor prevented the motor from unwinding further as it wasn't detecting as much slack on the cable as it was expecting. This meant the cable had to be cut, which released the wheel, and eventually allowed the opposing side to free-off.

I think the second is more likely, or possibly a combination of the two. Either way, a new pair of cables would test the theory that the mechanism/motor is actually OK (because initially I'd assumed it was borked and required many monies), and the issue was simply the presence of a seized brake cable, just like you could experience on the most basic of Ford Fiestas! The only difference is that in a Fiesta, you'd push the lever back down, wiggle it about and hope the car still moved, whereas in the C6, it tried to release, found it couldn't, threw its baguette out the window and slumped over the steering wheel in tears. I'm hoping my calm demeanour and warm embrace will convince it to try again...or something.

With this theory, I conducted some research and found that others had also mentioned the seized cable issue. I also decided to check my used replacements, and, low & behold, they're very stiff (lol).
So, before I did anything with the car, I had to see if these cables would come back to life.

I decided on a combination of tipping them up one way, and filling the end with penetrating fluid. Satisfaction is watching the bubbles come up with streams of brown rust in each one, as the level drops. Eventually, it stopped dropping - that'll be the seized bit, then!



To aid the process, I flipped them the other way around, squirted them (lol) from the opposite end, and watched all the brown drizzle out the hole (lol). Then, I used a drill set to screw (lol) speed to spin the cables around inside, while thrusting (lol) them in and out. This had the desired affect.



Then, I blew the penetrating oil out, and trialled some very sticky LSD oil I use in TVRs, to see if that would act as a good lubricant (lo.......alright, I'll stop now) for the cables.



This was the gloopiest, stickiest stuff I could pour down the cable, but it's still not really slippy-enough (because it's limited-slip? lololololololololLLLO!O!11!!!!)
Problem is, getting grease in there is pretty difficult. In the end, I used a syringe to inject grease alongside the cable, while the drill rotated. It drew enough in that the cable now moves nice and free, and now all I really need is a protective rubber sleeve to go over the end of the nipple, and keep the grease from coming out. The absence of that sleeve is likely what caused the seizure in the first place.

Now I had my two substitute cables ready to rock, I set about removing the remains of the old ones. Although only one had been cut, I figured the other one wouldn't be far behind it in terms of corrosion and wear; I was right!



This car has been used a lot, and not really loved a lot. I don't mean from an emotional POV, as the fella before me clearly was very fond of it, but in terms of maintenance and mechanical sympathy, it's looking pretty sorry underneath. Nothing that can't be put right, though!

Eventually I managed to free the offside cable off, and remove it, but the nearside proved to be more fun, for a while. I mean, ever needed a laptop to remove a handbrake cable before?



Well, if you've got a C6, you probably will do! Though hopefully, you won't have as old a laptop as me with a hooky copy of DiagBox that is jammed in French and requires a translator app on my phone to decipher, because I can't go back in time to 1997 and listen more in my school French lessons.

However, all was not well! Computer says no (in French):



What I was attempting to do was put it in maintenance mode, where the mechanism will fully extend and allow the removal of the cables. Would have made the offside much easier, too, but them's the brakes.
At this point I was scratching my head, until I remembered my emergency release cable. I exposed it, gave it a tug and heard a buzzing noise, followed by the sound of something dropping onto the floor:



That's the remainder of the nearside cable - result! Now all I need to do is fit me new ones.

[Kitchski]

seiben said:

This is just all kinds of amazing. A newly-discovered Kitchski thread is always a treat

Am I right in thinking this is the same engine and box that Jag used in the S-types of the era?

Engine: Yes.
Box: No.

Engine also used in various Land Rovers, though they use a single-turbo version because of some reasons.

hidetheelephants said:

Maybe worth asking Speedy Cables or similar about getting a new handbrake cable made up, as there's clearly a demand and £300+ is just outrageous and it's clearly a weakpoint. Whoever came up with the idea of electronic handbrakes should be fired out of a cannon at a safety net tensioned by fked electronic handbrake mechanisms.

There's a fella in Poland who has supplied them in the past, but I couldn't get hold of his details.

I wouldn't trust Speedy Cables to turn them around with 4 years, but there's always Cable-Tec. Used them before, and they were decent.

I think the idea of the electronic parking brake is a sound one, but the reality seems to be that they are inherently flawed.

bungz said:

Great write up as always.

That handbrake set up is absolute bks though, the motor needs coding to the car? costs a grand? Looks like its worth about 10 quid.

Apparently so, yes. I suspect it's because everything is controlled by the main computer/body module, and everything has to be coded together to prevent people tampering...or repairing them cheaply outside of the dealer network. As with many PSA coded stuff, it can only be coded once, rendering a used replacement useless...unless you pull it apart and pinch the cables!

As for the cost, it's a C6; Anything specifically C6 seems to be bloody expensive.

Retro_Jim said:

I appreciate your optimism and tenacity OP, having grown up with French cars such as the AX, BX, CX and xsara VTS I do find myself looking at old citroens to relive childhood road trips.

Your C6 has motivated me to look again!

Go for it!

shalmaneser said:

Very enjoyable and an awesome car! I reckon running some new oil through the gearbox might still be a good idea before you get too greasy swapping the boxes....

Thing is, that's already been done once. I guess I could try it again, just to see. A well-reknowned C6 specialist seemed to think it was potentially knackered, though.

[Kitchski]

So, further sessions with the top of lap, and we have done a success:



Very satisfying, hearing the motor run up and the cables tensioning for the first time!

[Kitchski]

shalmaneser said:

Fair enough - I suspected there had just been a fair amount of teeth sucking and huffing and puffing and the verdict of 'knackered' handed on down. If someone has already drained and refilled and it's still acting up it does rather suggest it's a goner.

It's probably a bit of both. Having looked at the box from underneath (and realised that it is a right pig to remove) I might try the fluid changes first - not decided either way. But, I know it's had one already and I know it went to another garage who specialise in C6s, and they seemed to think it was borked.

S100HP said:

As I mentioned in my message, it should be an auto handbrake as I have in mine. Basically you need not touch the button. When you put the car in park and turn it off the handbrake is applied automatically. Then, when you start the car, put it into drive, give it a second then push the go pedal. The handbrake should release automatically.

You can of course override this by pushing the button on and off as required, but its a cool feature. It's also very good for hill starts as you can apply it manually then just drive off as required.

It might not be in the C6 however....

Let you know when I drive it (with working handbrake!)

Mikebentley said:

I love your tenacity OP. I have advised my wife should I ever turn up at home with one of these magnificent cars to have me sectioned immediately.

And I love your optimism! As if your wife would still be there if you brought one of these home...

croissant said:

Just seen this... excellent work. Must be satisfying to have that sorted now! Since seeing your first post on this I've been looking at these. Wonderful cars!

Join the happy gang!

[Kitchski]

With a car as vast as a C6, a list of issues accompanying a cheap, mildly-neglected one isn't likely to be small! For this reason, I decided to set my project out into three stages:

Stage One (pre-MoT):

• Sort handbrake (done, aside from rubbing down and painting some clamps)
• Try and improve the condition of the sills (more on this later)
• Lights - sort out the ones that do not...well, light.
• Bootlid - it rattles and clangs and falls down on you when you're leaning into the boot. Honest, it does!
• Check the air-con system for leaks, while the car runs etc.
• MoT test (to get a list of failures to attend to)

Stage Two (post-MoT):

• Change gearbox (just like that! 5 min job for sure)
• Renew brakes
• Try to improve fitting of various damaged undertrays and arch liners
• Oil leaks...find them, and stop them
• Coolant hoses - there are a number of pipes that are renowned for rusting through and failing, so while I'm elbow deep, it makes sense to replace them (if they haven't already been replaced)
• Evans Waterless Coolant conversion - look into suitability of this.
• Wheels/tyres - while the car is in the air, all four wheels can be removed, so it makes sense to make this the time to sort out the absolutely battered state of the rims. Two of the tyres have slow punctures, too. I might just end up renewing the tyres, as they're half-worn already. Will inspect them closely first.
• Get the MoT pass.

Stage Three (once on road):

• Suspension fault-finding: Trying to figure out what the issue(s) with the suspension is/are, basically.
• Wheel alignment

Easy, right?

Well, the handbrake is effectively done, but while the car has the four post ramp occupied, it made sense to tackle the sills, which are suffering from the initial effects of tinworm. I know....I'm surprised too! I've owned plenty of Rennes-built cars over the years* , including BXs, Xantias and a Peugeot 407SW. In the case of the latter, which is very much of the same DNA a the C6, there was little to no rust at all. It's cliche, but it actually looked like new underneath!

* Plenty of cars from the Rennes plant, yes, but how many how their own wood-laminated production line?

• edited to add - It looks like the answer to the above question is the Peugeot 407 Coupe. All I had to do was look at the picture!

The C6, on the other hand, doesn't. Sure, it's not rotten, but some areas of the underside are looking for trouble. These areas mostly feature the jacking points, which are the flat 'blade' design, and common to all Citroens of recent years. They're a perfect example of Citroen believing this approach is the correct one, while the entirety of the civilised world does not.



The reason this is a stupid idea, is because a vertical strip of metal is only strong if a load is applied to it, well, vertically. You have to lift the car completely squarely underneath, otherwise you stand a chance (a chance laden with high-probability for fk up) of bending the jacking point.
This is fine... if you're using a two-post ramp, which is able to lift the entire car squarely, but if you're using a Halfords trolley jack on a gravel driveway, this happens:




This has the added advantage of breaking up the underseal all along the sill, aswell as bending and breaking much of the panel that the sideskirt attaches to, causing the skirt to pop its rivets and partially detach from the car. Neat!

Time to remove the skirts, then.





You can see the state of the jacking points! This is a heavy hector, and a single jack placed under one corner at a time is a receipe for disaster. I would go as far as to say that you just shouldn't do it, full stop.

Now, the thing I want to try and avoid doing, is welding on this car. A number of reasons for this: Firstly, it's a 2009 (or 2007) car - it shouldn't need welding! Secondly, there is a lot of sound-deadening in there, and I can't be arsed with removing it all and breaking every type of trim clip ever devised in doing so. Thirdly, there are many, many ECUs in this car; law of sod dictates that, despite disconnecting the battery, I will annihilate one of them.
Luckily, there are no holes. No structural issues that I can see, other than the bent jacking points, so I set about straightening those with a special straightening device and rubbing down all the affected areas.



The nearside does leave me with more to do than I'd hoped, as once I'd began grinding the paint/rust away, I found that the little flimsy return lip which the lower portion of the sideskirt attaches to was, effectively, missing for a small portion under the B-pillar. You can just see it in the picture above (locate the yellow stanley knife, look up towards the wheel of the car behind and spot the bit missing...yes, I know it's a bad picture, but what do you want; This is free, isn't it?! )

I ground away both sides, and once the metal was all good, I treated it with some copper-based weld-thru primer (even though I'm not welding it, it's just good primer!) Then I made a selection of 2mm alloy strips:




The purpose of these was to both realign, and strengthen the lips at the bottom of the sills. Though only a small portion had corroded away, the tin there was so flimsy and felt so weak, I decided to beef them up with something that won't rust. So, behind every part of this section, I placed a strip of alloy, which was bonded and then riveted in place. The alloy strips would also give the trim clips something stronger to anchor to.

Here's the nearside strip going in



Once the pieces were all in place (three each side; a small piece either side of the jacking points, and a big'un in the middle) I riveted them in and treat the primed areas with some black paint. Says it's tough chassis paint from Frost; In honesty it was a new product I was testing out to see how tough it was, because if it's decent I'll begin to use it in my professional life!



While the paint was going off, I took the skirts outside for a date with the pressure washer. They're not in bad condition at all, but they're hideously filthy (like everything else on the car!)



Meanwhile, I'd decided the paint I'd applied wasn't the right stuff for the job. The finish was nice, and I think I'd use it in certain situations (such as bracketry, uprights, driveshafts etc - basically a good version of Hammerite) but it's not hardcore enough to use as a chassis-based paint. It's not a proper 2k paint, to be fair, so I would have been surprised if it was as good as something like Rustbuster 121.
Because I didn't know what other paints could go over the top of it, I decided to keep my fingers crossed and stick some seam sealer OVER the top of the paint, because I wanted that thick, rubberised finish that would repell stones, grit and water.

I didn't cross my fingers enough, because again due to the law of sod, the seam sealer ate its way into the paint and caused it to become runny once more, two days after it had dried!

At this point I had two hopes:

• Bob Hop....no, wrong anaology; That'd I'd be able to simply scrape it all off and start again. lol.
• That it would all cure together in one thick, ugly, lumpy cast, and flukely do the job I wanted. Even more lol.

Well, in this instance, I got lucky. I ran out of time, so left it the weekend. When I came back, the paint and sealer had sort-of fused together, creating this ugly mish-mash of seam sealer and glossy black paint. I tried to pick it off, but couldn't! Ugly as it is, it's doing the job. And it is ugly...it's like Deadpool without the mask. You couldn't handle pictures of it, it'd haunt your dreams.

One thing I've come to realise during this work, is that the French automotive industry shouldn't listen to those who moan about build quality. In all the years I've worked on these things, I've never had too much trouble removing trim from a PSA motor (can't speak for Renault, as I've worked on surprisingly few). If you discount the BX 16V (the sideskirts of which are, without doubt, the hardest body panel to remove of any car, anywhere) they're all pretty easy to strip down. Sure, BMW have got the art of making lasting solutions when it comes to underbody trim, and their engineering really does shine when you take a 20 year old car, and easily remove things like sideskirts, arch liners, heat shields etc. But, for everybody else (VAG; Ford...I'm looking at you), yes, not a lot falls off, but trying to simply remove pieces just to access certain areas is a nightmare of rusted fasters, broken clips, rounded nuts and pain.
With the French cars, there is normally (or, there used to be) the bare-minimum holding everything together. The bare-minimum is fine, and with the bare-minimum everything stays in place, but if one monkey mechanic or bodyshop breaks something when they pull it apart, that's when things start falling off. I'm a firm believer that French engineers are among the best in the business, but when the vibe I'm getting with my time under the C6 is that they've been pressured into doing things the same way as everybody else.


This is a pain I am used to, owning an S-Max, but on Citroen? It's new, and not in a good way.

There are spring nuts, and fabric-type arch liners (like you get on Fords). This means it's practically impossible to remove and blind nuts, once they've rusted a bit, and you end up tearing the arch liner. Everything is bolted to everything else. There are the sort of clips and fixings you see on Golfs, and sure enough the same cable ties you find, due to the fact that half of the fixings seem only to work from the factory, and then sheer off once the warranty has passed.
I would actually go as far as to say (get your sharp intakes of breath ready, people) that the C6, in many ways, is more poorly executed than a Saxo. There is plenty that is good, and even some that is amazing, but every seemingly menial job ends up taking three times as long as it should, because you spend more time faffing about trying to find ways to resecure various components (like sideskirts), because the original design has proved to be flawed. A regular garage would say "Oh no, that's terrible!" And then put it back together anyway, or even leave the said component off, but I don't want to do that. I want everything to be where it's meant to be, and for it all to work, partly because OCD is a bh, and partly because what's the point of having something if it doesn't work like it's intended?

The bottom of the arch-liners, which fasten to the skirts, use the same half-witted blind nuts as shown above. Of course, these turned to rust and it has not been possible to disconnect everything without breaking it. That in turn has ripped the arch liners, and so unless I want them flapping in the breeze, I need to make them strong again.

Que cardboard!



Then some genuinely real-life carbon fibre that is absolutely NOT plastic...



Bit of time with the bandsaw later...





OK, yes...you spotted it! I've used one of those stupid blind-nut things exactly where the new ones went. Why? Because I'm short of time, and I felt a rivnut would have just pulled out of the plastic I used. No...carbon fibre!
You can't get to the back of it, and I wanted to keep the bolt head that would originally be there in place, so using a plastic fixing was out of the question (ridiculous, aren't I?)
So, the bolts are back in place, and this time with a lot of grease on them. Hopefully the plastic will prove to be less of a sponge than the original arch liner it was secured to, so it might even last!




But now, the skirts are straight, and they're fully secured unlike before. Also straight are the jacking points, though I'm not prepared to test them with a trolley jack just now....or ever.

Question you're all asking, is where did that blind-nut clip/stty thing come from. It was all silver and clean, and new looking! Well, I didn't buy any new ones - it came from somewhere else on the car, and I will reveal that location once I've been to the loo and made cup of tea.



(The loo and the cup of tea are different exercises; I'm not making a cup of tea in the toilet! Not again, anyway)

[Kitchski]

Cup of tea took a fair bit longer to make than planned.

Anyway, where did the rouge clips come from, you ask (I know you didn't, but just pretend you did for a minute...)

They came from here (this is the only remaining un-broken fixing!):



This is the back of the bootlid trim. On the bootlid itself, you've got a plastic insert which houses the reverse & fog lamps and numberplate. Here's a terrible picture of it, for reference:



This trim is secured in multiple places, much like the arch liners. What would have once sufficed with a couple of clips and some ingenuity about where they should be positioned has been replaced with the now more common 'cover it in fixings and break half of them when you need to remove it' policy, only this time they're thrown in the added bonus of securing the lower portion of the trim in a method that fails, should you not operate the bootlid EXACTLY as Citroen intend you do.
What this causes, is the entire trim to work loose along the lower edge, meaning when you shut the bootlid, the panel rattles and clangs and sounds like people who slag off French cars expect it to sound, rather than how it should sound. Can't be having that in a car that is marginally more noticeable to Joe public than your average grey saloon car!
It's not an issue unique to my knackered more experienced example, as many owners report the same problem. It's down to the fact that the retaining method along the lower lip (where most people catch the bootlid as it closes) is, well, for lack of a better word; wk. It comprises of four plastic tabs that more of these blind nut-things clip in to, the fixing bolt for which goes in from the reverse of the bootlid, hiding them in the process. The plastic tabs break off from the trim, causing the trim to rattle and annoy me.

Problem is, how to refix the trim in the same manner, i.e. with hidden fixings, but with a lot more strength so this doesn't happen again. Most of the remains of the original fixing tabs have long-gone, so any chances of caking those in fibreglass are long gone. Only one thing for it - I've got to hit it Project Binky-style!

Here's the rear of the panel. The fixings used to clip onto little plastic tabs along the bottom edge, but those are gone.

There are four fixing points (circled in the picture), and you can just make out the remains of the original fixings. You can also see the space limitations, and why this required some head-scratching!



Like I say, every job on this car is, so far, taking longer than you anticipate it will. If I was paying for labour, this would be an expensive C6 already!

To compound issues, the panel is curved in multiple plains, meaning anything I make has to fit the curvature of the bootlid, and the panel. It also has to fit in the remaining space between the two, which is approx. 8-10mm. Meanwhile, the outer mounts have to occupy a deeper space, but fit in around the fog/reverse lamp housings.

I decided what I needed some something tough, but malleable. That ruled out aluminium, which would have been ideal...if I had some the right size. I did have carbon fibre, but that was even less suitable! So, it was back to good ol' box section steel.
I managed to find a thin strip of (what I assume was) 10mmx10mm box, and cut it to length. Then I spent forever bending it to just the right shape.




There was the added complication on my car that the trim itself had been busted for so long, it had fractured:



I can't deal with external evidence of a repair, so whatever I make had to deal with this, too. It hadn't broken all the way along, so it was perfectly saveable, if I could find the right way to save it.

I took a punt carefully measured where the brace needed to sit and drilled a single 3.2mm hole in the centre, before fixing the brace in the place (London!) that it needs to be, once fitted up to the bootlid.



I measured and marked everything else out so that I could take it back to the bench and finished the drilling etc.




(n.b. the bench isn't the TVR bonnet pictured! I just put everything back down on that because it needs weight on it while the bonding agent on it goes off!


To be continued....

[Kitchski]

So....

Now that I'm able to secure it to the bootlid trim, the next stage (I realise I'm going into a inordinate amount of detail for this) is to sort out the method of securing it to the bootlid itself. Seems silly not to use the original fixings, or the original fixing holes, so in place of the two crappy blind nut things, I've inserted some rivnuts.




Because the box section is so small, I had to create another hole in the opposite side for the rivnut to protrude through!



This would be a problem, but only if the rivnut didn't sink below the surface of the tube once it had been riveted in. Which, of course, it didn't, because I'm awesome.

Rivnut in place and doing its job:




And a test fit bolting to the bootlid:



That's the two inner bolts taken care of, but what about the outer? Can I just use more of the same? Well, no, because that section of the panel is deeper. Of course it is, why wouldn't it be?!

So, some 20x20mm box for this me thinks.



A bit of reverse engineering to get the fixing holes for the rivets (I've left the lamps out for now, as they foul this small piece of box section).



With everything mocked up in the rear panel, it looks like this:



The keen eyed will spot that the centre brace has had a lick of paint!

The outer pieces took a fair bit of fettling to both get them to fit properly (without fouling the lamps), plus adding lots of holes for lightness.




OK, so the holes may not be there for lightness. They're actually there because (and some of you might be ahead of me here) that in their current design, they only secure to the bottom inner lip, or to put it plainly, they only secure on one side. And, with the centre brace, the one side is already partially broken. So, the holes serve a purpose, which you'll see in a minute.

Everything gets coatings of black stonechip paint:




And eventually, dry-fitted, everything looks like this:



Now I have the four mounting holes as per the original design, only this time they're mounted in steel, not 1mm thick cheap plastic.

And those holes? Here's the reason:




Lots of sticky sealant! I didn't want to risk using glue, or something you mix together incase the heat generated warped or caused the plastic panel to mishapen (it would have been very noticeable from outside!) This PU sealant will bridge gaps, brace cracks and stick like st to a blanket.

A pair of Remoaner numberplates were sourced (while I still can - aside from the fact I'm a blatant remoaner, I plan to drive the car to France when normal life resumes....one day!) These were fitted along with a set of LED number plate lamps, as per my C4 VTS (I fitted them ages ago, just haven't updated that thread!)




Everything was put back together, and I even treated the bootlid to new gas struts! Now it doesn't fall down any more, which is nice.



Oh, the tape? Yea, I didn't spot the top retaining clip that was also broken off, meaning despite all my efforts, the trim didn't sit totally flush. But this point patience was a virtue I no longer possessed, so that top corner was also bonded. Now it's solid!

As well as the work on the bootlid, I discovered that a number of bulbs weren't working, including all but one of the amber marker lights at the front and rear corners. Some LEDs sorted that:



I managed to get an MoT slot for the 4th, so just before this I recitified the faulty windscreen washers. The O/S barely worked, and the N/S was hanging out. Here's a pic of the bonnet with the old ones removed:



Were you expecting a picture of the new ones? No? Good, because I forgot to take one. They worked, though!



That's a set of brand new Valeo blades on there, too. I really pushed the boat out!

So, MoT time rolled around. I cautiously took it to the test centre and kept fingers crossed that it didn't bite me in the arse. A small list of cheap failure points that I can attend to within the free-retest period would be ideal.



Only went through first time, didn't it?!



The advisories are no big deal, either. The brakes I knew about (I even told the tester about them). I've bought new ones, I just haven't got round to fitting them yet, because I've been too busy farting around with sills.
The rack gaiter I hadn't spotted, but I'll order a pair of genuine ones I expect. They tend to fit better than the aftermarket ones.
The pins it mentions are effectively lower swivel joints. I'll get some of those too, so all the advisories will be done in the next few weeks regardless.

But, it's roadworthy once more, and that's a big relief! If only it wasn't tempered by the sight of this:





I am very much not looking forward to this...

[Kitchski]

TheDrBrian said:

Why faff about with the waterless coolant?

Just use the proper PSA/Jaguar stuff

I use the waterless in a few of my cars, it's great. There are certainly some benefits that this car would enjoy, so long term it's my plan.

[Kitchski]

Having obtained a year's ticket, I threw some tax on the C6 at the beginning of December and decided to start using it as-is. My logic (or lack-of) was that now I have a replacement gearbox, it doesn't matter too much if this one dies on the side of a road. Apart from the prospect of having to push an 1850kg car with huge tyres and a busted automatic gearbox, of course.

First things first, I owe the C6 (in general) an apology. A while back, having read "Citroen SM: Accidental Death of an Icon", I got a little more passionate about Citroen in the pre-PSA days (I defy anybody who reads that book not to) and decided that, unless a model was genuinely innovative, that it was not a real Citroen. Therefore, the C6 was more a technical exercise for the company, which might also aid marketing, and the last true Citroen was, in my opinion, the Xantia Activa.
Well, I don't think I'm hugely far away about the C6. It isn't really that innovative, in that there isn't much on it that is new or hasn't been seen on other cars, at some point. The suspension is an evolution of that used on the C5 (the fugly one too), and things like laminated side-windows had already been used on the C4, let alone other brands like Mercedes, who I'm sure also fitted a heads-up display to some S-Classes. Oh, and headlamps that steer around corners? Pah! They've been around since 1967! (1970, if you want them to self-level).

However, I needed to cut Citroen some slack. I mean, how many things can you keep inventing? And just because you think of something new, doesn't mean people are going to buy the car, it just means losers like me get excited about it when the arse has fallen out of their resale value, and one or two of those innovations might still work...intermittantly, at least.
The other, more important reason, is that Citroen need a massive, MASSIVE pat on the back for even getting this thing past the PSA accountants. It just makes no sense! They knew they wouldn't sell any - regardless of how good it was - and even with some heavy parts-bin raiding (there are a LOT of shared components with all manner of other mainsteam PSA cars, mainly C5 and Peugeot 407) it was still going to cost a bomb to make. Even at £38k, I'd be surprised if they made much of a profit on it. And that's before you consider that the car itself was massively late to release! It was meant to be ready five years previously, and it's no surprise that, despite it being a newer car than the C4 I've replaced it with, the C4 feels more modern. Looks-wise, the C6 is a little timeless, to my eyes, but in terms of the trim and the interior, it's all very mid-naughties.

Still, you overlook the Pug 407 stereo and heater panel, or the C4 door handles and centre caps. You overlook the billy-basic side repeaters, too. Why? Because you can sense the enthusiasm of the designers every time you open the door. You don't stop looking at it; Well, I know I don't! You keep finding new angles that you never noticed design details on before, and it feels special every time you're stood near it. And that, is why this is a true Citroen: It feels special!
The more hundrum PSA-based mainstream cars produced wearing double-chevrons might not (although they certainly feel more interesting than their rather conservative Peugeot counterparts), but the C6 does stand apart. My C4 VTS has a certain element of 'funkiness' about it (I don't mean it stinks), but it's purely style over substance as underneath it's thoroughly average. A Ford Focus drives much, much better.
The C6 is funky; different; stylish; eye-catching and 'out-there', but more than that, it's still a wafty Citroen. Sure, it doesn't neccessarily do anything new or different to previous Chevron offerings, but who says it needs to? Couple everything it does with everything it is, and it's every inch the traditional Citroen.

There, you heard it here first; I was wrong!

I'll do a progress-report on the £750 C6 soon, I promise. Short-version: I love it! It's still saddled with faults, and there is still a lot of work to be done, but I'm feeling that it's worth doing it now much more than I was when I got it. I think when it arrived, I bought it and set about fixing it simply due to protocol; I'd bought a car that most people run away from (even in perfect condition), and it was all a bit of a joke and a bit of fun, and I've got a ramp so I might as well fix it etc. Nothing to lose and all that.
Well, that's changed. I now want this car to work as well as it possible can, simply because it's my favourite way of getting around. It's the car that, right now, I would choose to drive out of all the cars I currently own, and that's despite the faults. Faults which prevent you from being able to do more than about 10 miles in it before it makes it so obvious that it's in pain you feel bad for setting off.

The big repair will come, I'm just waiting for a ramp. I'll go into details about my adventures so far later on, though.

[Kitchski]

shalmaneser said:

Good to hear! These are magnificent barges and I'm sure a perfect counterpart to a noisy sports car. You surely won't lose too much money on it given the purchase price as they're sure to get rarer.

Yes, definitely an antidote to the noise and intensity of...well, pretty much anything! Hopefully won't lose out too much £££-wise, but I'm not really fussed. As long as it pays for itself, which so far it has done.

Leftfootwonder said:

Just discovered this thread and thoroughly enjoyed it. My dad used to have Citroens (BX's, Xantia's and C5's) and my brother and I went through a load of them (AX, ZX, Xsara VTR, C4 VTR, Saxo VTR/S) Funnily enough I was looking at old shed-money Citroens the other day wondering if I want to torture myself again. I've always admired the C6. Good luck to you.

I've had (or still own) everything in your list, except the C5. Can't get over the looks - shocking-looking things, they really are.

Vickers_VC10 said:

As soon as you get in and use the massively over styled and very pretty door bins, you realise this was more than an exercise in engineering. To me it was like designers penning a love letter to themselves. As you touched on, they knew damn well it would never recoup any investment made however, it exists and the world is a better place for it. I still miss mine every day. Its like a Newfoundland dog, they are hugely compromised in they shed enough hair to fill a duvet once a week but they are super friendly beasts and you would never kick it if when it pees on the floor, LDS fluid I'm looking at you here!

I'll let you know if I end up kicking it!

[Kitchski]

Scobblelotcher said:

Excellent thread as ever! I may see you around as I often visit Barneys Superbikes just around the corner and I’m often around that area.

I went in one of these years ago and it blew me away how comfortable it was and they also move well given the weight.

Ah yes, you'll probably spot it!

It does hustle along quite well, yeah. Far more so than anyone would ever have you believe.

[Kitchski]

Well, at the beginning of December I made the decision to put the C6 into service, despite the fact it wasn't strictly...well, fixed. My logic was that seeing as it was already broken, I had nothing to lose!

By luck rather than judgement, this proved to be a masterstroke, taking my grand total of great ideas since 1983 (when records began) to three. I genuine believe that if I hadn't put it on the road, warts 'n all, it'd still be dumped at my workshop collecting moss. "I'll do it when I have time" says I, knowing full well he never has 'time'.
Granted, the first thing I decided to tackle was a part that wasn't actually fitted to the car anyway, as I'd left it off from the last time I had it up in the air. This was the engine undertray. On some cars this is purely a loose piece of protection (if the car in question is from the VAG stable, it's probably no longer there anyway). On other cars - cars that are a bit more cleverer - it forms part of the aerodynamics and affects the cooling efficiency of the radiator. I've gone and stuck the C6 on the road without it, which I'm sure will be fine. It's not like it has a high-capacity, twin-turbo charged diesel engine and active aero, right?
The reason it needed tackling was that it was split. It wasn't fully in two pieces, but it was well on the way, and I figured prevention is better than cure, so I beefed it up.



Why so many rivets? Because there's some sealant in there too, and it was quicker than clamping it together!




Meh...I'll throw some black paint over it. It'll soon get covered in st! Main thing is that it's now strong...stronger than it was previously, I should think.

The C6 was now on the road. The handbrake issue I'd sorted, but the suspension and gearbox issues remained. However, much more pressing than either of those two minor issues was a more serious problem that required my attention. You see, the headlamps on the C6 are xenon, as you'd expect and that gives off a nice, crisp white light.
The sidelights, however...oh man! They're not white at all. Being a standard W5W (501) bulb, they're like a tinged yellow. Kinda like the doorframes of your average 1980's council house. You know, the one with an ashtray next to the telephone in the hallway.

I decided this was something I could live with no longer. I installed these:




Kudos to Citroen on this one, because looking at those headlamps (especially with the bonnet open) you'd assume they'd be a total pig to change, but no! Open the little access panel on the side of the unit, and rotate the long white rod-ish stick thing.

50% there:



While I was playing with the headlamps, I decided to play with the laptop. I told it to depressurise the system, to see what would happen. Resulting low-boi image below:



When it depressurises, the fluid all returns to the reservoir, and in my case it overflowed and spilled a bit. I'm taking that as a sign it was overfilled. Incidentally, these LDS-based systems are quite different to the older LHM ones. In the case of the latter, overfilling the reservoir (as a result of a faulty level indicator, or an ignorant operator (ask me how I know...both times)) leaves you with a worst case scenario of wasting a load of money in the form of a bright green puddle on the floor. The reservoir on a BX or Xantia, for example, barely seals. It's a fully breathable setup, and, of course, with the cars sinking when they're switched off and then pumping up again when they're restarted, the level tends to fluctuate quite a bit; When the suspension is slammed, the tank is full, and when it's raised as high as it'll go, it's...well, it's not empty, but it's got less in it.
An LHM car is also pretty fully mechanical, when it comes to the pressure regulation side of things. The engine runs a mechanical pump, which whips the green blood up into a froth until it reaches about 1400psi. The regulation is done via springs and valves, and in the event you want to release the pressure completely (dropping the car to low does not achieve this), you simply turn a 12mm-headed bolt head about 180degrees, and wait for a hiss.
LDS cars are different. LDS cars are far more complicated! For a start, the pump is electric, not engine-driven. The evolution of this is pretty much as per the evolution of power-steering pumps, where, certainly in PSA's field, electro-hydraulic was flavour of the month. Lots of PSA cars (starting with the Saxo) have run electrically powered hydraulic pumps, and the cars from the C6's era even used the same LDS fluid for their steering as the C6 does for its suspension. Of course, with the LHM cars, the high-pressure circuit powered the steering and brakes too, meaning you got fully-powered brakes, as opposed to assisted brakes via a servo. C6 runs a servo, like a peasant's Kia Rio. I mean, you can kind of pretend they're the same, as they do actually share the reservoir, but the PAS pump is a standard belt-driven affair. Bum.
In terms of space and packaging, it's much neater, because you have far less in the way of pipework and hoses littering the engine bay. The pump can also act as regulator and distributor, too, but there are some quirks to this system. Firstly, for reasons I don't fully understand, the reservoir isn't breathable. When jacking a LDS-suspended Cit up, it's imperative you remove the cap from the LDS tank, because if the suspension droops as you raise the car, it can fracture the tank. Yes, really. Same with C5s, too. I assume that if you raise the suspension to its highest setting, effectively locking-out the travel, you shouldn't need to. I think...
For the same reasons, overfilling the system is bad. The level in the tank has to be bob-on, because if it's not it can cause you all manner of headaches. You actually have to connect a laptop to the car and tell it to check its own fluid level, and in doing so, it depressurises and repressurises. Mine spilt a bit out (luckily I'd removed the cap). I guess that's right; I never actually bothered to find out.

The other reason I'd slapdashedly dumped my laptop on the roof, was to see if I could enter the system and learn any reasons as to why my suspension was titting about. I'd made a bit of progress there, you see (once I'd finished doing the important jobs, like fitting tarty LEDs to the headlamps).
Earlier that day, I'd gone hunting on the forums seeing if I could find other people with my suspension issues. I was convinced it wasn't a mechanical issue, as when you first pulled away in it, the ride seemed fine. Not amazing, but not terrible. Eventually, the on-board computer screen would beep loudly at you, while proudly telling you that the car's main standout feature was, indeed, faulty. You'd already know this, however, because it had already started riding like an Audi A3 S-Line.
While traversing the forums, I (perhaps unsurprisingly) found a load of people reporting suspension issues, but despite their commonplace, I was surprisingly relaxed. The fact is that thought everybody tells me these cars are a nightmare, and are scary, I'm just not scared of it. I've got that much faith in Citroen's engineering (generally) that if the car develops a fault, I tend to assume there is a simple explanation, and that I just need to find it. It's probably going to be down to human error, too.
I stumbled upon a thread started by a chap with very similar issues to myself. The only difference for him (other than the fact he'd lived with it 18months, the masochist) was that his car had a pattern to the issue. He'd pull away from standstill, and then after 30secs of driving, he'd get the 'suspension faulty' error message, followed by a German ride quality. Mine wasn't doing that; Mine was just random.

Having read this post when I was meant to be doing something else, I popped out at lunch to grab some food, and decided to count how long my car took to have the same problem. I figured that if I kept a log, there might be a pattern to it.
I drove to the traffic lights, and stopped. I pulled away and counted; 1...2...3...(that's how counting works, you see). When I got to 30secs on the fking nose, I get the beep. Wow! What a coincidence!
I try it again...30 secs. Madness! What are the odds.
Third time lucky...30secs. Hmmm, I can't be wrong here. It must be the car.
Fourth time...32secs. A-hah!
Fifth time...38secs.
Sixth...29secs.

And then, it hit me. It was every 30 secs after all, but it wasn't 30secs after pulling away, it was 30secs after it went over enough of a bump to make the suspension do something! Apart from the sixth time...I think I overestimated my counting ability with that one.
To test this theory, I found a very smooth road, and managed to make it last 50secs. I did the same road again, only this time wobbled the steering and hit the brakes at speed, to make the suspension compress. 30secs later...beep.
OK, this was promising stuff. I was still nonthewiser as to what the issue might be, but I firstly had an ally (unbeknown to them) with the same problem, and secondly I'd figured out that it was the movement of the suspension that was the problem. Everything else about the suspension was fine, it was just when it went over a bump that I had a problem. If it was parked up outside my house, it was fine. It was only when I wanted to drive it, and more specifcally, drive along a road that wasn't as smooth as a compact disc (remember them!?)

So, when I started pratting around with the suspension pressure, I also did some reading about setting up the suspension. When I say 'reading', what I mean is I scan-read everything people had written in about 10mins, took it all as fact without further questioning any of their logic and then compiled my own assumption about how the brain of an active-suspension system works.
People were talking about taking measurements, and inputting numbers, and so I did the same thing...only I guessed. I did actually measure one of the figures I needed, but guessed the rest and half-heartedly threw it in there to see what happened.

When I did this, the car responded by lowering itself from the height it had previously been running at, to around 10mm lower. The computer informed me that all the information I'd just entered into it had not been accepted, and told me to go away, in French.

Running late, I left the workshop and drove home. To my astonishment...the suspension fault had gone! No beeps; No Audi ride-quality...OH MY GOD! I'd fixed it! The service history is littered with receipts from other Citroen garages trying to sort this out, and boom! I'd guessed right first time, spent no money and fixed my 'massively complex' car!

Well, not quite. Yes, it wasn't going hard any more, but it was clearly riding too low. The front end was bottoming out, and though it was now much nicer to drive than it was previously, it clearly wasn't happy.


Time to start taking it seriously...

[Kitchski]

B'stard Child said:

I already thought you were taking it seriously.......................

Funny enough I was following a black one of these with Mrs BC in the car

Mrs BC "what the chuff is that"
BC "Citroen C6"
Mrs BC "is that 2007" (57 Plate but she struggles with modern plate formats - the 70 ones really fugged with her head just just about worked out the last decade ones)
BC "yep"
Mrs BC "I've never seen one before"
BC "I'm actually following a thread on one on PH"
Mrs BC "No way you are buying one it's fugly - it's clearly been left in the sun look at the rear screen it's melted and sagged"
BC "same as a Citroen CX - like your cousin used to have"
Mrs BC "I like those"
BC "Just as complicated"
Mrs BC "so if you are not going to buy one and they are complicated why are you following a thread on one"
BC "it's a pain pleasure thing except I don't feel the pain"
Mrs BC "you are just weird!"

I have absolutely zero love for this but very much enjoying following your experiences because I think someone has to do it or they will all disappear

Thanks....I think!

Bobberoo99 said:

I always enjoy following your threads, i keep meaning to stop by one day and at least get eyes on your lovely Hillman Imp, but this thread is great reading itself!!

It's sitting under a blanket covered in old AX bits at the moment! But one day I'm sure you can come see it.

Vickers_VC10 said:

I love the photo with lots of orange puddles at least it's not green.....

Hey Claude that hydraulic fluid use?

Yes?

I want it to look less obvious and make it look like rusty water.

To go to your point on the LDS tank, yes. Always take the cap off it's very easy to pull a huge vacuum in the system, also frowned upon to let the wheels dangle off a four post car lift.

You should consider remapping it, I did this to mine and it went very well indeed, suprised a few things.....like a HGV lol no seriously it went very well.

Seriously, it's quick enough for me. Unless the remap massively improves the economy...

shalmaneser said:

I have developed a worrying appreciation for the Hillman Imp over the last few years... Is there a thread anywhere?

As with all my threads, it's horrendously out of date:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

samoht said:

Love the sophistication of these, can't wait to hear the details of how one re-programmes the suspension, I find it all fascinating! Glad you're making progress with the issue at least.

You won't have to wait much longer! The weekend, most likely.

Shadow R1 said:

Great update.
Interesting regarding the suspension and getting it setup right.

I've definitely learned something new.

lb3nson said:

Love this! I worked at a Citroen dealer when they were new and always thought they were really cool.
Nearly bought one a few years back when I wanted a 4 door daily, however I was so scared of the big bills I went for an Alfa Romeo 159 instead. You know it’s bad when the Alfa is potentially the less ruinous option!

I'm sure they're equally reliable....in a good way!