Feh. Do I sell all the classics and just buy a modern?

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I presently have three old Porsches - a RHD 964 widebody cabriolet; a LHD 964 RS and a 356 outlaw.

None of them are presently working, or at least working perfectly. The 964 cab - which I have been using over the summer - has just gone back in for the third round of its rolling restoration. Admittedly I'm trying to make it perfect, but the game of whack-a-mole is getting a little wearing. The RS is being refurbished by RPM to a similarly obsessive standard, with appropriately large bills and long waiting times. The 356 has an arms-long list of work needed before I can even drive it. [Although this would be easier if I didn't live in London and so need a cooling system that can cope with two hours at 6mph].

I like old Porsches (obviously) but I can't help feeling that while I'm pumping money into perfecting three examples of the breed, the clock is ticking quickly for petrol-engined cars. I already can't drive either of the 964s in central London without paying for the privilege (weirdly the 356 is exempt by virtue of being "historic"); I can't drive them in Paris at all. [Obviously right now I can't drive any of them anywhere...].

At the moment they're all worth decent money, in theory at least. The 964 cab is one of (I believe) 24 UK C16 cars, and rather fewer manuals - I think it's the only one in polar silver; the RS is a proper C00 car with fairly low mileage; the 356 is in reasonably good shape and has a Shasta race motor in it. They're supposed to be a blend of hobby, investment and driving pleasure.

The hobby seems mostly to involve writing cheques. I can afford it, but that's not a justification.

The investment depends on there being a market for collectable ICE cars in the future, which i'm beginning to doubt - do little kids even know cars exist these days, never mind have posters of them on their walls? My 11-year-old-son seems completely uninterested, where at his age I would have been pestering my dad unceasingly about any of the cars, had he had them.

The driving pleasure depends on a) driving and b) it being a pleasure. See above re: London, but even in France now they've dropped the D-road limit to 80km/h, spammed the country with zero-tolerance cameras and introduced all these pollution control zones you spend most of your time watching the speedo, the rear-view mirror and upcoming laybys rather than enjoying the drive.

I'm sorely tempted to execute a hurry-up on all three restos, sell them all, invest the money elsewhere and scratch my Porsche itch with either a 991.2 Targa (because there's no 992 Targa) or a Taycan. I'm not even sure about the Targa - despite it being the best-looking recent Porsche by some way - because of the general opprobrium directed at internal combustion. And the Taycan, while cool, is a four-door saloon and we already have two family cars - one electric and one PHEV.

Maybe the whole car guy thing is just over, and I should accept that cars are just a means of transport now, and that what matters in that case is low environmental impact, maximum comfort and minimum driver involvement.

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It's interesting, isn't it? I've had a lot of cars, and a lot of fun with cars - including some fairly serious racing - but fell out of love with the whole thing about ten years ago and stopped bothering - we had a series of Discoveries and now a Volvo PHEV as family transport and an i3 as a city car, and mostly I cycle everywhere.

Then this year I found myself watching a lot of (pretty well exclusively American) car collector/restorer videos and coming back onto car forums like this one and I thought the bug had bitten again. I've always been a Porsche man, and have always had a soft spot for the older cars, and convinced myself that I'd enjoy the sourcing and restoration (okay, overseeing the restoration) of a small collection, and that I'd enjoy using them and getting back into the car scene.

I did enjoy tracking down and buying the cars, but I'm finding the restoration process more frustrating than I expected - because in the UK it seems harder to find restorers that really know their stuff, and those that do move very slowly - and I'm really struggling to enjoy the cars, both because driving a noisy IC sportscar now seems rather gauche and because driving just isn't all that much fun any more.Frankly, if it's a nice sunny day and the roads are empty, I'd rather get on my bike; and if I actually need to get somewhere that's too far away to cycle, I'd rather take the Volvo and enjoy the silence and driver aids without worrying about overheating in traffic.

The answer I'm closing in on is probably to sell the 964s - I should be able to make a little money on the RS, and might not entirely lose my shirt on the WTL cabriolet - and keep the 356. The trick with that car is probably to do a West Coast EV conversion on it. Then I can enjoy the styling without trying to make a 56-year-old drivetrain compatible with modern traffic. It's an outlaw anyway, so it won't be as if I'm desecrating a matching numbers car.

I think the whole IC car thing still has a long way to run, but not in Europe. American yoof still love cars, and they have a much more robust car enthusiast scene. I suspect that over here we'll ban IC cars completely within 20 years, and that the next ten will see them largely taxed and restricted out of use for most people.

Or am I reflecting a North London bubble here? I can't really imagine buying a new car that's not at least a plug-in hybrid (my unrequited affection for the 991 Targa notwithstanding), and in my personal circle it's wall-to-wall Teslas, i3s and PHEVs, but there still seems to be a strong market for modern sports and supercars; perhaps I just mix with the wrong crowd?

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marky911 said:

A few? As in 3 or 4?

I think 10. But it'll be eccentric - or rural - to enjoy ICE cars within 5 years. They'll be banned from city centres across the country by then. It's more a feeling than anything I can really point to factually, but I think there's been a massive shift in sentiment, and it's moving very quickly.

It'll be more like 15 years in the States - perhaps longer - because car culture's much more embedded, and they have such large distances and so much empty space. Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands will all ban ICE entirely within the next 10 years, I expect. Norway (ironic, given the source of the money that lets them contemplate it) will probably ban them within 5 years.

Frankly, the cost of deploying a nationwide charger network sufficient to make BEVs suitable for everyone would be a fraction of the cost of HS2. Generating capacity, and affordability of the cars themselves, is another question entirely - but we're talking about the market for classics and sportscars, not the survival of the crappy hatchback for another decade while battery tech gets cheap enough.

What I can't understand is that there's still a pretty strong market. Porsche can still shift cars - especially less usable, more polluting track-biased specials (the 992 GT3 will inevitably sell out instantly if it hasn't already). The classic auctions I've been to have been well-attended, and the asking prices for classic 911s remain strong (although I can't speak for the transaction prices or rates). Hence my wondering how much of my current worldview is biased by where I live and the company I keep.

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Penguinracer said:

It's odd how if you fly a light aircraft or run large motorboat no one seems to care about the fuel & emissions - probably because the hand-wringing liberal complainers don't often darken the door of an FBO/aero club or marina/yacht club.

Sell the 964's & get yourself a Pitts for some aero action or a nice Bonanza A36 to cart the family around Europe.

Whether or not I sell the cars, this has been a thought for some time. We have places in France and Italy; it would be nice to be able to visit them more often. It's quite a time (and money) investment to get to that point, though - I'd not be happy flying the family around unless my wife and I were both qualified, and at least one of us would need IFR. Looks like a half-decent twin (Beech Baron, for instance) is about half a bar USD (I'd not be happy crossing the Alps in a single-engined plane); I imagine the usual 10% of the acquisition cost PA to run rule applies. About £50k to get to PPL(A)+NR+MEP+MEIR, so say £75k total if only one of us goes all the way. Might be able to recover some of the ownership costs by renting the plane out, I suppose. Still, it's the thick end of £600k and two years done properly. Can't say I'm not tempted.

The carbon footprint comparison is interesting: for a family of four getting to (say) Milan - comparing commercial flights, a twin-piston light plane and driving in a typical 30mpg ICE car:

950km by plane gives 1.2 tons of corrected footprint from commercial; about 0.75 tons by Beech Baron G58; 1300km by car gives about 0.3 tons at 30mpg (which is what we get from our XC90 T8). So commercial is a bit less than twice light aviation which is in turn a bit more than twice automotive (not accounting for the Shuttle, and considering only fuel emissions, not construction/eventual disposal etc). The light plane would be comfortably the quickest door-to-door, once you allow for all the arsing about at airports.

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I thought there would be more pleasure in restoration (done by others) and tinkering (done by me) than I've found so far. In part this is down to lack of time (and here in London, space) for the tinkering - meaning that I'm often up against time pressure for jobs that inevitably take longer than they should.

I also thought it would be a way back into a world where I once made a number of lifelong friends. I did track days rather seriously at the end of the 90s, and raced in the Porsche Cup, Open and Intermarque in the early 2000s. I liked that world, even if it sometimes had a whiff of "loadsamoney" about it. These days I get the same kicks and friendships from cycling - I'm active in the local club, and co-own the local bikeshop - but wanted to broaden my horizons. I still might, but there just doesn't seem to be a classics scene over here in the same way that there is in the States - all of the active 356 fora and meets I read about appear to be in the US, for instance. Jury's still out on this aspect, anyway. If the RS is ever fixed, I may do some track days for auld lang syne, although it will be hard to give 100% in something that's supposed to be an "investment".

As for driving pleasure, I'm really struggling to find it.Obviously living not just in the SE but in London doesn't help. The original theory was that Mrs 964Cup and I would sneak off for the occasional weekend lunch in nice places using one or other of the more civilised toys. The vision was Oxfordshire lanes blurring past to the accompaniment of the rasp from the 356's race exhaust. The reality is overheating on the North Circular trying to get to Hangar Lane while everyone else is trying to get to Wembley for some sub-par warbling from a teenage idiot, or to Ikea to buy more flat-packed lifestyle. In my head, buying a car from the 60s would allow me to time-travel back to a more civilised era that was less crowded and less policed. I think I knew this was a fallacy (or fantasy) even as I bought the car, but didn't let myself recognise it.

I don't need to sell the cars to buy another one, but I can't dress up an i8 Roadster, 911 Targa or Taycan (the current, slightly eclectic, shortlist) as an "investment", I barely ever drive anywhere for work, I commute by bicycle, so if I'm not finding pleasure in driving, why would I buy yet another car? I've done the whole supercar thing before anyway, and had already fallen out of love with it a decade ago. The only car I really miss from a long string of toys is my 993RS, but those are now too expensive to use (and a lot older than they were when I have mine in the late 90s - and so much more likely to keep going wrong).

It's interesting that the answers to this thread have largely been concurring - I thought there'd be more passionate defence of classics, and cars in general - and I'm not ignoring those who have pitched in on that side. One consensus seems to be that the right "fun" car to own is a recent-ish track special - something like a 997.2 or 997.1 GT3 RS. New enough to work properly, old enough to have some analogue nature left, and usable for track days with enough civilisation to survive being driven to them even if they're on the continent. The trouble is, track days for me were never enough, and a track special has a pretty limited set of use-cases - we're not going to go to the Charles Napier in a GT3RS.

Perhaps the answer is to stop trying to pretend I'm doing anything other than spending money, and use that money to buy race seats. Something like Britcar would probably scratch all the right itches, and four seats a year would likely cost less than the probably unrecoverable resto costs plus insurance and storage fees that I'm burning on the classics.

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Or there's something like this, I suppose: https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...

What do we think of the GT3 Touring? Civilised enough to tootle out to a restaurant, but hardcore enough for an RMA day at Spa? Or a bugger's muddle?

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roca1976 said:

Consolidate all 3 into a back date 911?

https://www.jzmporsche.com/used-vehicle-details/Po...

Less drama if dinged compared to the RS and you could build your perfect spec?

Thought hard about this. The trouble with back-dates (especially 2.7RS and 3.0ST recreations) is that you have to put a lot of money in if you want a properly usable car - effectively you have to build a properly-restored 964 and then put the backdate bodyshell and interior over the top. What you end up with is potentially fun - although 964s need more on-going attention than you'd think - but worth less than the sum of its parts. There's been some froth out there in back-date pricing, driven by the likes of Singer, but ultimately I don't think any of them will hold their value. Especially since the 964-based stuff still has 13 years or so before it gets historic status, which at least gets you off the ULEZ and other emission-restriction issues. A lot of them seem to be built as semi-race spec as well, with stripped out interiors and so on. I don't get that at all, since they're going to be less fun around a track than a proper track car, but much less usable for touring than a car with a conventional interior.

I understand the whole pleasure-of-ownership thing, up to a point, but I still want a car I can use. That means it has to be able to make the drive to Normandy for instance, including crawling out of London and doing 300k of autoroute on a hot summer's day, without overheating, cooking me alive or leaving me completely deaf. So it needs an overspec cooling system, aircon (or at least half-decent ventilation), sound-deadening and a stereo that works. A big part of the frustration that started this post was that even 90s Porsches really aren't up to modern traffic conditions without a huge amount of restoration and improvement work - it's not just London; this summer I had hours of almost-stationary traffic on the M20, plus a failed Shuttle that required an hour or so of crawling around at walking pace in 35 degree heat. I was in the 964 cabrio, so at least I could put the top down, but a combination of this week's odd fault (the VDO ECU that controls the onboard computer display deciding to run at about 90 degrees C, meaning that the recently-refurbished-at-vast-expense factory AC was struggling to cool the cabin) and the ongoing issues with the cooling system (not sure what's causing it but in stationary traffic the car starts to run hot - not overheating as such, but above half-way and as a result starting to have a recalcitrant second-to-first gear change - current candidates are the aux fan and the ballast resistor on the oilcooler fan) made the whole experience slightly nerve-wracking rather than just irritating.

It's surprisingly easy to build a car that works well on track - it's mostly running at WOT, it has plenty of airflow, the clutch is either in or out, the road surface is smooth, you're not concerned about noise (in fact you're probably wearing earplugs under your helment) or ventilation, and you only ever brake like you mean it. Getting something that works in modern traffic is much, much harder, and so is keeping it that way - there's just so much to go wrong in early modern cars. At least with the 356 it's so basic that you can maintain it with a screwdriver and a lump hammer; the downside is that it's so basic that it doesn't even have a ventilation fan. The 964 has a whole bunch of early-90s electronics in it, all of which will go wrong at some point, usually when you're far from help.

Anyway, enough first-world problems. I may just have talked myself into a GT3. This is bad. I'm off to lie down in a darkened room for a moment's reflection...

[964Cup]

Still having unclean thoughts about a GT3 Touring. Certainly my sort of car. But but but...

Will they really hold their value? It's a soft market, there's a new GT3 along soon, and even the least expensive is currently something like £50k over original list for a two-year-old (barely) used car. I don't mind depreciation on my everyday cars, but I'd prefer not to contract into it for a low-usage toy.

Can I live with the emissions? It's ok (-ish) dealing with my old cars - they're old, and in fact surprisingly economical (and therefore low in real-world CO2). But can I accept buying a new car that's the wrong side of 290g/km? Both in conscience and with an eye to future legislation.

Hmm.

Maybe the answer is to finish the RS, sell that, and buy a Touring. They're similar in intention, but the Touring might realistically be expected to a) work all the time and b) leave me feeling half-way human after a long drive.

We'll see. I think I'm going to go and have a look at a Touring anyway. Which is a bad sign.

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nsa said:

Another factor to consider is that despite the fact that manuals are an apparent must-have for the current generation of classic and sports car buyers, future generations raised on DCT, DSG, PDK, EV etc might not want to drive a manual car, which will depress the market further. I did about 1,000 miles in a manual NSX this summer in and out of towns (and I paid the ULEZ charge twice for an overnight stay in the City), and the novelty of changing gear wore off pretty quickly. Come 2021 it will be caught by the wider London ULEZ. It also had a couple of niggling issues that need sorting, and I don't even like the attention it gets. It's one of three classic-ish cars that I'm tempted to consolidate into one nice PDK 911.

The ULEZ requirement is Euro IV petrol for the moment, so not a problem for a GT3. And the 356 is exempt. Both 964s will be caught, but I don't drive any car every day, let alone either of those, so it's not at the top of my list of worries. As for holding value, I'm thinking of a 5-year period, and I'm fairly confident people will still drive manuals in 2024 - I'm more worried that no-one will buy a 290g car in 2024.

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anonymous said:

[redacted]

The thing is, I'm not much interested these days in going for a random drive to nowhere, and I find that the horrible over-trafficked camera-laden roads vastly outweigh the brief periods of B-road pleasure on most UK journeys to anywhere worth visiting. It's not a problem if your car is bearable in the crap bits, but it certainly is if you spend the entire time you're stuck in traffic worrying what's going to go wrong next. I'm still reasonably hopeful that I can get both the RS and the cab to a point where they cope properly with traffic (although the RS doesn't have aircon, obvs); the 356 is a whole different thing.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

We have a house in Normandy; you'd be surprised how much policing, and how many cameras, we see in the middle of bloody nowhere (and by the number of tickets I've had for speeds fractionally above the limit). I still tend to drive "spiritedly" out there, and it's a much more natural habitat for all of my cars, but it's not the free-for-all it was even 10 years ago.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

This has become the plan - at least the buying a modern part. I'm not sure I'm ready to give up on the classics just yet, but I think I need a fun car that can be relied upon to work properly. The shortlist at the moment is 911 Carrera T, 911 Targa and 911 GT3 Touring (in roughly ascending order of self-indulgence). I think the Tourings are overpriced at the moment; there's a 992 GT3 Touring apparently on the way, and for a no-cost option they're currently asking a good 40k more than an equivalent regular GT3 (to the point where I wonder if you could just fit the rear deck to a standard car). The 911 Carrera T got good reviews, but the actual changes don't seem all that special. The Targa is, I think, the best looking current 911 (with an aluminium roll-hoop, natch) but I hear it has bad buffeting; I need to drive one and find out. I'm also not at all convinced I want a turbo motor, although I've not driven any of the current generation of Porsche light-pressure turbos.

Other marques are of course available. I can't stand the look of any of the current Astons; I'm not having another Ferrari after my 360 experience; and I'm not a drug dealer, a pimp or a rap "star" so I can't have a Lamborghini. I hear very mixed stories about McLarens in terms of reliability, and I don't really like the look of them. The only other thing (at my nominal £160k-ish price cap) that has me interested is a BMW i8 roadster - we have an I3, I love the futurism and (relative) eco-sensitivity of it, but I can't help thinking it's all a bit Gen 1 and that considerably more resolved and exciting BEV or hybrid sportscars will be along in due course. So...other marques aren't really available. Good thing i'm posting in the Porsche forum, then...

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projectgt said:

Have you driven a Singer Porsche, an Eagle Jaguar or considered any of the factory/dealership restored cars? On paper they seem to tick all of the boxes.

A 996 GT3 that has had a full going over or something would provide peace of mind for longer trips surely?

Singers and Eagles are too expensive. Early Singers made some sense, I think, but now they've jumped the shark with prices in millions. I'm not E-Type person, either, I think - a nicely-restored roadster drove past me earlier today, and while I appreciated the looks, it didn't spark an acquisitive interest. I could be tempted to Emory-ify my 356 but again the money is insane.

I had a 996 GT3 and hated it (although I'm told the 996.2 GT3 was a huge improvement).

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BertBert said:

So that's yet problem. You need some decent maintenance. They are inherently reliable cars, why would they go wrong in traffic?
Bert

They might have been reliable when new (although actually my first ever 964, a '90 C4 that I bought in '97, already had some persistent glitches) but they're far from new now. None of these cars ever seem to have been looked after properly, so there's a huge amount to do to them to have any chance they'll be reliable. The 964 was pretty well the first mainstream Porsche to use a lot of electronics (I imagine the 928 may well be worse, I've not had one), and in these now 26+-year-old cars the multiple ECUs and endlessly bodged-about electrical systems almost constantly have some kind of gremlin - viz for instance this summer's main drama with the 964 cab where the climate control unit, which also runs the oil cooler fan (obviously...) and auxiliary engine fan (ditto...) has a small fan attached to the back of it that draws in cabin air as part of the feedback loop for the aircon. This fan has permanent power, because it's supposed to keep running for a short while after you turn the car off, in case you turn it on again and immediately want the correct cabin temperature. Vital, I'm sure you agree. Of course, after 26 years, the transistor that eventually turns this fan off can fail. When it does, the fan runs continuously, drawing about 1A, and drains your battery. To fix it, you either buy a vastly expensive used unit (that may well have the same fault) or send it off to one of three specialists worldwide who can fix it. Without a CCU you run all sorts of risks of overheating in very hot weather. So, of course, in the midst of the heatwave my CCU exhibited these symptoms, meaning a) the car kindly surprised me by not starting when I needed it and b) I had to both buy a temporary replacement unit and get my original repaired. Joy. Now the enormous (given how little it actually does) ECU unit that runs the laughably basic on-board computer has decided to run at 90 degrees C, so I have another exciting electronic adventure ahead of me.

Here's the complete list of issues so far with the 964 cab, which has a comprehensive history file, a multiple-Porsche-owning PCGB member as previous owner, and a previous restoration. Some are just symptoms of the car not having been used for a while, but by no means all. Those with a * are still to do:

It needed a full service, including plugs, filters and changing all fluids plus new discs and pads.

MAF casing bodged and leaking
ISV dirty
DME faulty
Battery earth lead faulty
Vacuum lines disconnected
Fan shroud to heating system plastic duct failed
Left and right fans in HVAC system failed
HVAC flaps disconnected
CCU fan failed
VDO central indicator ECU overheating
Clutch slave cylinder failed
Overheating in slow traffic (still under investigation) - probably #2 aux fan plus oil cooler fan*
First and second gear almost impossible to obtain when hot (partly fixed by clutch slave cylinder replacement, partly an overheating issue)
RH mirror motor failed
LH mirror glass incorrect
Cigar lighter socket failed*
Aircon u/s - needed a new condenser, a new evaporator and a regas
Outside temp sensor u/s*
Door speakers rotted
RH window mechanism needs lubrication*
Hood inner fabric worn - hood centre support retaining elastic straps failed*
Brake fluid leak (probably failed brake pressure relief valve)*
Tendency to stall in reverse; also occasional hot-start issues (probably more ISV problems)*
Courtesy lights not working*
O/S door checkstrap u/s*
Dash dimmer broken off*
Gauge rubbers need replacement*
Clock face needs replacement (usual 964 thing of the indicator lights overheating the plastic film)*
Seatbelt sensors u/s*
Heated seats u/s*
OBC lever misaligned*
Spare wheel retaining bolt and washer missing
Compressor u/s (it had had a replacement 12v plug bodged on; I've fitted a proper replacement)
Emergency triangle missing
Geometry hopeless
Boot carpet velcro failed
RH map pocket lid latch mechanism failed*

I've also changed the steering wheel, bought the correct alloys (but not fitted them as I like how it looks on 18s), changed all the exterior bulbs for LEDs, reset the Laserline alarm and added a new fob, had a duplicate key cut, fitted a Porsche Classic satnav, replaced the pointless cassette holders with an oddments tray, tidied the under-dash wiring, changed the heated rear window switch for a heated mirror switch (not period correct, but come on, Porsche, you didn't fit a heated rear window to a cabriolet until the 996), fitted a showy number plate and bought a custom cover that I've barely used because it's never in my garage...

It also now needs a little bodywork since someone kindly dinged the o/s door in a French supermarket car park, and I really ought to do a sympathetic refurb on the interior leather, without wrecking the patina. And since it's got 105k miles, it will probably need a top-end rebuild at some point in the next three years. And I should probably fit a new battery.

And that's one car of three. I could give you the equivalent lists for the other two, but then I'd have to go and lie down for a while.

[964Cup]

More news in The Times this morning about the proposed Air Pollution Bill, which may include a ban on new petrol car sales by 2030. The bill is likely to have the same provisions as the present French system, which in addition to permanent (and more stringent than UK) ULEZs in cities, provides for county-wide restrictions on driving depending on vehicle emissions. Unlike the French, if this goes into law, we'll use it, and you can bet that the bill will make no distinction between a 1992 911 RS that's been fastidiously maintained and is used for a couple of thousand miles a year and someone's bangernomics 1992 Vauxhall Astra runabout with worn valve guides and broken piston rings which is ragged to within an inch of its life every day.

Air quality is shaping up (and I'm not saying this is necessarily wrong) as the next moral panic once we're done with Brexit, are bored with gender issues, and are tired of hearing about climate change. The government will pay lipservice to both the destruction of jobs in the garage and restoration trades, and to the destruction of value (and restriction of freedom) in the classic car owners' world, but at the end of the day "think of the children" will be the unstoppable sledgehammer.

It's not that I'm trying to make money on these cars (don't make me laugh). It's that I'm trying not to lose money hand over fist on a hobby. I was/am hoping that they'll hold their value - unlike modern sportscars - so that I only lose what I spend on maintenance and use costs. Since I can readily foresee a situation in 10 years' time where you simply aren't permitted to use a car emitting more than 200g/km (or less), or without a cat, or without a relevant Euro certification (this is the French model), I'm having a definite crisis of confidence. It makes me very reluctant to drop another six-figure sum on an ICE Porsche with a high CO2 number.

You might say I live in a London bubble, but that's where policy is made, and the Greta Thunbergs of the world are shouting loudly and being listened to. Car enthusiasts are readily dismissed as bobble hats and macho wkers, and the car industry so thoroughly blotted its copy-book with Dieselgate that no-one will listen to them (the sainted Elon aside, perhaps) for at least a decade. Remember that we may soon have the party of Abbott and Thornberry, McDonnell and Corbyn in power. How likely is that shower to take a balanced view, pay any attention to individual liberty or care about wealth destruction? Imagine the sympathy I'd receive from McDonnell if I complained about his policies rendering my three Porsches worthless. He'd get a semi. just thinking about it.

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Let's not get climate change and greenhouse gas emissions mixed up with the air quality campaign. The issue currently exercising people is dirty air near schools; the majority of that is particulates and NOx from vehicle exhausts (and brake/tyre dust, but that's being ignored by most). The point is that it's easy for virtue-signallers and politicians to demonise ICE cars as the culprit; it suits Britain's cultures of envy and milk-monitoring. So you can be sure there'll be lots of finger-pointing outside schools, and people being dobbed-in for driving their kids around, and for idling when they shouldn't be.

The general public not being very bright, there will be an automatic assumption that expensive, noisy sportscars produce more child-murdering pollution, and it's a chance to stick one to people who have things other people can't afford - a favourite British pastime. Islington Council - home to the sainted Corbyn's constituency - tried this on a while ago: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/petrol-and-... It will doubtless be back, with the blessing of our current self-promoting leftist Mayor, as an extension to the ULEZ.

Obviously Uber-vermin, ancient diesel taxis and Routemasters will all be exempt, but public transport is suffused with a (blue-grey, smelly) haze of ineluctable virtue.

I don't give a monkey's about driving in Islington (except that my cars are presently stored in the borough), but this is the thin end of the wedge. The problem of course being that there is no one left to act reasonably or to represent the views of all of the people, in our post-Brexit polarised society which appears to be run (and opposed) exclusively by maniacs and idiots.

Not that I'm having a grumpy start to the day or anything.

[964Cup]

What I'm finding hard to understand is that Ferrari et al are still doing this kind of thing: https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-ferrari/ferrar... . I can see them selling in the US and in the Middle East, I suppose. But in emissions-conscious, camera-heavy Europe? They'll sell every one they choose to make available.

To whom? Is the market really people to whom £300k is relative chump change? I suppose if they were £30k I'd have one in a heartbeat (except that it's a Ferrari) and not care if it was worthless in three years' time, and there's no shortage of people ten times wealthier than me. Nonetheless I find it slightly amazing that we're still allowed to buy cars like that, and don't expect that freedom to last.

I also can't imagine what I'd do with an 800hp road car. Even in my RS I can pin the throttle from time to time; it's rapidly in licence-losing territory, but not in the world of go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go-front-page-of-the-Daily-Mail. The joy of the 356 (when it works) is that I can pin the throttle, enjoy the noise, feel like I'm going quite quickly, then look down and realise that I might be in danger of getting three points if I'm really unlucky. Most of the time, not even that, long may 60mph limits on B-roads last...

Edited by 964Cup on Monday 9th September 17:43

[964Cup]

braddo said:

It's an interesting thread, leading into how each person makes different compromises to balance the competing aspects of life. Some of the dilemmas are familiar to me (on a much more modest scale), e.g. living in London versus the joy of driving; having an older/cooler car but which is reliable and useable, and wife-friendly(!); tactile driving experience vs refinement for long distances and nice trips.

One of my compromises is that I want to live in central-ish London and so to enjoy some spirited driving, it means early morning drives on weekends to the countryside (and a few track days). That is a compromise I'm happy to make but it's clearly not for everyone.

For the OP, perhaps a priority is to get an interim useable car to enjoy some driving until your three get finalised (or sold) to your satisfaction - something from 2007-2010 like a 997 GTS/GT3 or Lotus Evora? These cars are ULEZ compliant and modern while being just before cars get more digital and insulated.

Have you heard about the electric aircon for older cars (911 focussed but they have done an E-type for example)? Perhaps not something for your 964 cabrio given the sunk costs! The system has dramatically better performance than the factory aircon in aircooleds.

Meanwhile I guess there are other compromises that I would enjoy contemplating!
- get a piston single plane for trips to Normandy but stick to easyjet for Italy?
- keep the RS in Italy? Access to better roads and less congestion perhaps?
- get a road-focussed caterham or similar to keep in Normandy?
- stick to Sundays for nice country pub trips when London roads are a bit quieter.
- stick to the moderns on hot summers' days!

All good thoughts. I think my current malaise is partly specific to all three cars being troublesome at the moment, and it taking longer to fix them than I'd hoped. It's time, not money, that's at the root of it - I want to have at least one of them on the button so that when an opportunity to enjoy using an interesting car arises, I have one to use. It doesn't seem to matter how willing one is to fund restoration and repair work - it always seems to drag on, and patience is not one of my virtues. I don't have the skills or the space (at least in London) to do the work myself. Ironically we already have a classic in Normandy - a Peugeot 304S cabriolet which, while slow, is a lovely thing for a summer's pootle. That car is, of course, also broken and presently stuck with a French local garage who make any the UK outfits looking after my other cars look like Speedy Gonzales.

So the answer (light aircraft aside, which is a very interesting re-opening of an idea I first had more than a decade ago and never pursued) is probably some combination of gritting my teeth and waiting until at least one of them is fixed; accepting that old cars are unlikely to be perfect - you can see from the list earlier that I can't help trying to build 100-pointers; and perhaps buying something properly modern and under warranty that might be expected to work without needing to pray to the gods of 90s electronic voodoo or 60s rust.

I can't decide on that front if I want a cool car, a fast car or a track car. The GT3 Touring appeals as it ticks all three boxes (to my eyes), but it's a lot of money for a palliative - and I think generally overpriced when you can buy the same car with a wing for at least £30k less. The i8 roadster is definitely cool, and prices for those seem to be in freefall - ex-demonstrators at 40k off list with less than 1k miles - but presumably a) they'll continue to lose value like a stone kicked off a cliff and b) there must be a reason why nobody seems to want one. If I actually drove anywhere with any frequency for a purpose, and we didn't already have two brand new modern family cars, I'd buy one and just eat the depreciation, but as an occasional toy I don't think it makes sense, or is special enough.

If you were going to spend up to £100k (because much over that and I'll just buy the GT3) what would you get? - on the stipulation that it can't be any trouble at all to own, must start on the button even if it's not moved for a month, and should ideally not have a depreciation curve that looks like a recent tech IPO (being able to afford to lose the money and wanting to are different things, I find).

911 Carrera T (is it special enough?)
911 Targa (ditto - and again these seem to be holding value in a slightly odd and unsustainable way)
Alfa 4C (with the aftermarket handling fixes)
Some rarified version of the Exige (but very much track only, I think)
I did want a Morgan Aeromax for a long time; I never bought one and they now seem to be rarely available and then only at proper money; I imagine now that they're also getting long enough in the tooth that they need babying and prayer

...suggestions on a postcard please...

Oh, and on the electric aircon front it's in the roadmap for the RS and the 356. They don't actually make a kit for 964s, but I've asked the question; the factory A/C in the cabrio will be fine, even though it is indeed feeble, if we can stop the VDO ECU acting as a cabin heater. The issue with the 356 is that the aircon apparenly needs about 1hp; that's about 60A. The 356's generator only makes about 25A, so you have to do an alternator upgrade and some rewiring; you also have to source a factory forced ventilation system if you don't have one already - I don't as mine was originally a US car - and do some reasonably serious rejigging of the front of the car. I'm increasingly convinced I'm going to do an EV conversion on the 356, at which point 60A will be a mere bagatelle, but I think I'll wait for the next generation of battery systems as I'd like to get at least 250 miles of range.

[964Cup]

DJMC said:

Won't work. For UK trips it doesn't make sense. Drive to the airfield. Check aircraft. Check weather. Book in flight plan. Fuel up. All takes a great deal of time. Then when you land at the destination, if you're staying overnight there are parking fees and you have to arrange ground transport to your destination.

Generally quicker, easier and cheaper by car.

Not for the UK. We have houses in Normandy and Northern Italy; in France we have a choice of Deauville (actual international airport) and Bernay (aerodrome); in Italy I think we could fly into Aosta. With the right plane either one is likely to save us some significant time vs our current habit of driving - France is between 6 and 8 hours door-to-door depending on the state of the M20 and (when returning) how Border Farce are performing; Italy is 11-13 hours. The issue for Italy is you have to either get across the Alps or go around them (much longer flight), so we need something with appropriate ceiling and performance, and if it's to be more convenient than driving we have to be able to fly at night and in poor weather. So it's a turboprop rather than a piston plane, I think, and I'd still prefer a twin although that's a significant cost increase. In that context neither parking fees nor having a car to leave at the destination airport strike me as major considerations.

For clarity I'll add that you can't easily fly from London to Normandy (you have to go Southend-Caen at the moment, which is absurd). You can fly London-Milan or London-Geneva, obvs, but then have a 1.5hr drive at the other end to add to all the hideousness of airports and cheap airlines. Much more importantly my wife has never quite got to terms with travelling light, so we tend to fill the car to the brim every time, way beyond any sensible baggage allowance - or my desire to hulk bags around in airports.

Anyway, it's not really in the same expenditure decision league as the GT3/T/Targa/something else debate.

[964Cup]

Yellow T said:

A Targa vs a T is a very different proposition depending on what version of the Targa you are interested in. A manual T vs a 991.2 Targa PDK are very different driving experiences. I test drove the latter when I had a tiptronic 997.1 and it felt like a luxury cruiser in comparison. It's all personal taste which is why I settled on a T with LWB's as it has a similar feeling to my 997.1 albeit more modern. For more luxury and comfort you might prefer a Targa but I would want the GTS variant which might blow the budget. I would imagine you might be able to get a back to back test drive for both these models. Approx 176 manual T's in the UK with 9 (manuals) for sale at the moment.

Edited by Yellow T on Tuesday 10th September 10:21

If I l knew what I was interested in, this whole thread would have been much shorter. I'm mostly just casting around in frustration. I think I want something that's just practical enough not to irritate me if I'm using it to flit back and forth to France while the rest of the clan are out there for the summer, while being special enough to make me smile when I open the garage, fast enough to do the occasional track day and reliable enough not to add itself to my list of problem children. All this while not depreciating so fast that I can actually see the money evaporating as a sort of miasma around the car.

As I said, feh.

[964Cup]

Rocketsocks said:

You will never ‘save time’ by operating your own aircraft in the uk.

Your cost estimates for obtaining a licence that legally allow you to do these trips are actually quite sensible, but you will not have the experience to deal with things going wrong. Throw in a bit of bad weather, a tired and worried family sat in the back, you (the pilot) operating with minimal experience and currency, and a crappy old twin with poor performance and you’ll soon be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Believe me, it is a terrifying feeling to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.

I’ve delivered over 7000 hours of flight training in light twins, I’ve flown 20+ tonne turboprops and currently fly the Boeing 737-800 as my day job. Despite having over 20 years of flying experience under my belt, I can tell you now, I would not dream of taking on the kind of trips you’re talking about in the kind of aircraft that will be available to you.

If you’re that wealthy that you can afford to buy and run an aircraft suitable to do these European trips. (I’m guessing something like an old KingAir is the minimum you’re looking at?) and can afford the King’s ransom it will cost to operate it, I’d strongly advise you to put your money into some time with NetJets instead.

Interesting perspective. I'm basing my thinking partly on theory - that may well be wrong - looking at cruise speeds, and comparing 30 mins drive to Elstree, an hour for pre-flight, about 2.5hrs flight time to Aosta, say 30 mins to wrap the plane up at that end and then a 45 minute drive (5h15) with either a 12-hour drive or 45 mins drive to Luton, 90 mins pratting about in their horrible airport, 2hrs flight time to Linate, an hour to escape and a 1.5hr drive at the other end (or much the same Luton-Geneva) giving 6h45. It's the time-saving over driving I care about, and the avoidance of large airports and Easyjet.

The other basis is an American friend of mine who flies everywhere (including Florida to Kelowna in BC for skiing, which is how I know him). I forget what plane he has now, but he did have a Baron. He seems to think of it as equivalent to driving, and certainly exhibits little evidence of stress. He may be unusual; he's certainly experienced.

NetJets is obviously an alternative, but not for the local aerodromes we'd be most interested in using, I think (although I guess we could go LCY to Deauville and either Aosta or one of the Milan airports).

Yes, an early-80s KingAir E90 was the sort of thing. Are they that terrible?

[964Cup]

Penguinracer said:

It's not all negative...private flying isn't the poor relation to airline flying.

Private flying can give you some things airline flying never could...like an inverted flat spin which you can walk away from!

Or, presumably, not walk away from.

You chaps are really selling it, I must say.

Still, I might try for a PPL, at least, to see what all the fuss is about.