Car had trouble starting, then turned off at stop or low
Discussion
Recently I had trouble with my 2001 Daewoo Matiz (AT).
The car seemed to go into limp mode when I came down a hill and stopped. When I proceeded to go, the engine revs up but very little power (I was still able to drive, just very low speeds but the engine revs up like I'm supposed to go faster but no power/speed gains).
Some people thought it was clutch failing but then since it was AT, the next suggestion was possibly low transmission fluid.
I went to the shop, mechanic guy saw my engine oil was low so he topped it off and said something about possible engine issue and this will only allow it to drive a little longer but may have problems again soon (not in my native language so I barely understood what he said).
I drove the car just fine again for about another week. Car was fine yesterday when I came home. This morning when I went to turn the ignition, it had trouble starting up. It would try for a few seconds but no engine start up. I'd repeat this a couple more times and finally it started but barely. I drove it around very slowly (10-20 km/h) around town but when I slowed down or came to a stop at a turn, the engine sputtered out and shut off. I was able to turn it back on but only made it to a curb and I sat there idling for about another minute before the engine sputtered off again on its own even while sitting idling.
I looked up an article online and found these possible problems when an engine shuts off when slowing down at very low speeds or at a stop (because it seemed to drive fine as long as I was driving and not slowing down).
"Common reasons for this to happen:
Malfunctioning transmission: In a car with an automatic transmission, the torque converter takes the place of the manual clutch and is responsible for transmitting power. If the torque converter is broken, or if there is a low fluid level in the transmission, the converter will not do its job, and the car will be unable to maintain power at low speeds, which causes the engine to shut off. A defective TCS or torque converter solenoid can also cause this issue.
Low fuel pressure, dirty or defective fuel injectors, or broken fuel pump: The fuel pump is responsible for transferring fuel from the tank to the engine. A malfunctioning fuel pump can result in low fuel pressure, which means that there is an inconsistent stream of fuel to the engine. At high speeds this doesn’t matter as much, but at low speeds a temporary pause in the fuel stream is enough to kill the engine. The fuel injectors are responsible for spraying a measured amount of fuel that is ignited by the spark plugs at the proper time. Injectors can become clogged or dirty over time resulting in erratic spray or no spray at all.
Bad oxygen sensor or mass flow sensor: The oxygen sensors and mass flow sensor determine how much oxygen is entering the fuel stream, and helps the vehicle adjust the air-to-fuel ratio. If there is too much or too little oxygen, your vehicle will not have optimal power. Just like with low fuel pressure, the car will continue to operate at driving speeds, but this suboptimal power won’t be able to fuel the vehicle as it slows down.
Loose or corroded wires in wiring harness: An inconsistently firing ignition will result in an easily stalled engine. If the wires don’t have consistent, constant, and reliable connection with the ignition circuit, the vehicle can lose voltage quickly, and it won’t have the power it needs to keep running as you slow down.
Faulty idle air control actuator: The idle air control actuator controls the engines RPMs when it is idling. This actuator receives information from the electronic control unit (ECU) so it knows at what RPM to keep the engine for a smooth and safe idle. When the actuator malfunctions, the engine gets no signal for idling speed and stops working.
Clogged or restricted EGR Valve: If your EGR valve is clogged, dirty, or defective it can cause your car to stall, idle erratically, or sputter, depending on whether it is stuck open or closed."
Any idea which one of these might be the issue? My guess is it might be the transmission low fluids?
The car seemed to go into limp mode when I came down a hill and stopped. When I proceeded to go, the engine revs up but very little power (I was still able to drive, just very low speeds but the engine revs up like I'm supposed to go faster but no power/speed gains).
Some people thought it was clutch failing but then since it was AT, the next suggestion was possibly low transmission fluid.
I went to the shop, mechanic guy saw my engine oil was low so he topped it off and said something about possible engine issue and this will only allow it to drive a little longer but may have problems again soon (not in my native language so I barely understood what he said).
I drove the car just fine again for about another week. Car was fine yesterday when I came home. This morning when I went to turn the ignition, it had trouble starting up. It would try for a few seconds but no engine start up. I'd repeat this a couple more times and finally it started but barely. I drove it around very slowly (10-20 km/h) around town but when I slowed down or came to a stop at a turn, the engine sputtered out and shut off. I was able to turn it back on but only made it to a curb and I sat there idling for about another minute before the engine sputtered off again on its own even while sitting idling.
I looked up an article online and found these possible problems when an engine shuts off when slowing down at very low speeds or at a stop (because it seemed to drive fine as long as I was driving and not slowing down).
"Common reasons for this to happen:
Malfunctioning transmission: In a car with an automatic transmission, the torque converter takes the place of the manual clutch and is responsible for transmitting power. If the torque converter is broken, or if there is a low fluid level in the transmission, the converter will not do its job, and the car will be unable to maintain power at low speeds, which causes the engine to shut off. A defective TCS or torque converter solenoid can also cause this issue.
Low fuel pressure, dirty or defective fuel injectors, or broken fuel pump: The fuel pump is responsible for transferring fuel from the tank to the engine. A malfunctioning fuel pump can result in low fuel pressure, which means that there is an inconsistent stream of fuel to the engine. At high speeds this doesn’t matter as much, but at low speeds a temporary pause in the fuel stream is enough to kill the engine. The fuel injectors are responsible for spraying a measured amount of fuel that is ignited by the spark plugs at the proper time. Injectors can become clogged or dirty over time resulting in erratic spray or no spray at all.
Bad oxygen sensor or mass flow sensor: The oxygen sensors and mass flow sensor determine how much oxygen is entering the fuel stream, and helps the vehicle adjust the air-to-fuel ratio. If there is too much or too little oxygen, your vehicle will not have optimal power. Just like with low fuel pressure, the car will continue to operate at driving speeds, but this suboptimal power won’t be able to fuel the vehicle as it slows down.
Loose or corroded wires in wiring harness: An inconsistently firing ignition will result in an easily stalled engine. If the wires don’t have consistent, constant, and reliable connection with the ignition circuit, the vehicle can lose voltage quickly, and it won’t have the power it needs to keep running as you slow down.
Faulty idle air control actuator: The idle air control actuator controls the engines RPMs when it is idling. This actuator receives information from the electronic control unit (ECU) so it knows at what RPM to keep the engine for a smooth and safe idle. When the actuator malfunctions, the engine gets no signal for idling speed and stops working.
Clogged or restricted EGR Valve: If your EGR valve is clogged, dirty, or defective it can cause your car to stall, idle erratically, or sputter, depending on whether it is stuck open or closed."
Any idea which one of these might be the issue? My guess is it might be the transmission low fluids?
But if the car had trouble starting up (was cranking but didn't turn on), it seems that would not be transmission related. The car should start no problem, it would just have trouble changing gears or staying on.
Since the car had trouble starting, could that be either a bad battery or alternator?
If a car has a bad battery, but you were successfully able to start it up, could the engine still shut off later for having a bad battery?
Since the car had trouble starting, could that be either a bad battery or alternator?
If a car has a bad battery, but you were successfully able to start it up, could the engine still shut off later for having a bad battery?
Yes, after they topped off the oil, it drove okay again for about 10 days. Yesterday it was fine when I parked it. Only this morning it didn't start until 3 or 4 tries and long cranks. Then when it ran, it died after I came to a slow speed/near stop to make a turn at a road about 1 minute later.
It only seems to die when the car is either idle or at low speed.
I decided to park by the curb and let it idle for a minute and it just died on its own after about 2 minutes of idling.
Does this sounds like a low transmission fluid issue? Dying car battery? Corroded wiring? or Low fuel pressure/fuel pump dying?
I bought this car used for just a grand. I need to decide if I should just buy another used car or if it's worth trying to get this issue fixed (it may be a really small and simple fix).
It only seems to die when the car is either idle or at low speed.
I decided to park by the curb and let it idle for a minute and it just died on its own after about 2 minutes of idling.
Does this sounds like a low transmission fluid issue? Dying car battery? Corroded wiring? or Low fuel pressure/fuel pump dying?
I bought this car used for just a grand. I need to decide if I should just buy another used car or if it's worth trying to get this issue fixed (it may be a really small and simple fix).
Edited by cornflakes2 on Tuesday 16th July 09:40
I just tested the car again right now and lo and behold it started up no problem! WTH?
I let it idle for 5 minutes and it was fine. I drove it just a short bit for fear it might shut off but it drove like normal.
I decided to park it next to my local mechanic garage but he's closed today.
So some problems if the car doesn't work, it shouldn't just suddenly work again. So that should eliminate a few potential issues but
I don't know which ones. The fact that it works again should narrow down my list of potential problems.
Do you think its fuel pump related? AFAIK, fuel pump or pressure even if failing, can still start the car and make it run fine like there was no problem and then suddenly go bad again and good and bad etc.
Would a low transmission fluid do this? If the car wasn't turning on or staying on...would it just suddenly work fine after a few hours of sitting?
This is like detective work and I wish I was a mechanic to figure out this puzzle. I took a couple pics also of what I noticed to be wet/damp areas around the engine or underneath it.....not sure what part this is....could this help?
Is that the transmission box? It looks like something is either leaking on it or its coming out from the seals? But it also appears wet around the engine block too.
I let it idle for 5 minutes and it was fine. I drove it just a short bit for fear it might shut off but it drove like normal.
I decided to park it next to my local mechanic garage but he's closed today.
So some problems if the car doesn't work, it shouldn't just suddenly work again. So that should eliminate a few potential issues but
I don't know which ones. The fact that it works again should narrow down my list of potential problems.
Do you think its fuel pump related? AFAIK, fuel pump or pressure even if failing, can still start the car and make it run fine like there was no problem and then suddenly go bad again and good and bad etc.
Would a low transmission fluid do this? If the car wasn't turning on or staying on...would it just suddenly work fine after a few hours of sitting?
This is like detective work and I wish I was a mechanic to figure out this puzzle. I took a couple pics also of what I noticed to be wet/damp areas around the engine or underneath it.....not sure what part this is....could this help?
Is that the transmission box? It looks like something is either leaking on it or its coming out from the seals? But it also appears wet around the engine block too.
Thanks for that list!
Yes, I really would love to do all of this if I had the time and tools to do something as simple as cleaning the engine (to be able to
find leaks better).
I think considering this car was only a grand, doing all these replacements will cost me the value or more than the value of the car itself...even if the fix is pretty simple, just trying to find it might cost me more than its worth.
I wish future cars would simply have a full diagnostic system that you can plug and basically find ANYTHING that is wrong with the car, literally an examination that could be done in 2 minutes just to find the problems. With these older cars, just to FIND the problem costs more money than to actually fix it. I could replace all those parts you mentioned (I already knew most of that beforehand) but I figured, if there was a way to just find out exactly what was the problem and I could fix it, then it might be worth just fixing it and keeping the car.
Based on the photos, I was thinking another thing. It looks like oil might have gone into the spark plugs. I read that it is a reason why cars don't start sometimes or have difficulty starting because of wet oil spark plugs.
Since it had a hard time starting this morning...maybe it was damp and wet...but having sat for the entire day (really hot today) and then I tried it when I got home from work, it turned on just fine and ran just fine. Maybe it dried up during those 8 hours in the heat?
I'm trying to figure out WHY something would not work in the morning, then SUDDENLY WORK later on ??? It's either BROKEN or NOT BROKEN...I don't get why it would work now and it didn't before? The only thing that changed was time passed. Nothing else was done to it. So that's why I'm figuring that this must eliminate a lot of potential issues because some issues don't just work and not work repeatedly....for example...the battery issue is OUT...if it was due to a dead battery....then 8 hours later, the car wouldn't suddenly work ok. If it's a dead battery, then it won't start EVER. I'm guessing there are a bunch more issues that could be eliminated from my case now knowing that it does start up and work fine right now even though it didn't in the morning. I'm guessing it has to do with the wetness around the engine and possibly wet spark plugs...that's probably why it worked 8 hours later in the hot weather when it dried up compared to the morning when it was probably nice and damp/wet.
Yes, I really would love to do all of this if I had the time and tools to do something as simple as cleaning the engine (to be able to
find leaks better).
I think considering this car was only a grand, doing all these replacements will cost me the value or more than the value of the car itself...even if the fix is pretty simple, just trying to find it might cost me more than its worth.
I wish future cars would simply have a full diagnostic system that you can plug and basically find ANYTHING that is wrong with the car, literally an examination that could be done in 2 minutes just to find the problems. With these older cars, just to FIND the problem costs more money than to actually fix it. I could replace all those parts you mentioned (I already knew most of that beforehand) but I figured, if there was a way to just find out exactly what was the problem and I could fix it, then it might be worth just fixing it and keeping the car.
Based on the photos, I was thinking another thing. It looks like oil might have gone into the spark plugs. I read that it is a reason why cars don't start sometimes or have difficulty starting because of wet oil spark plugs.
Since it had a hard time starting this morning...maybe it was damp and wet...but having sat for the entire day (really hot today) and then I tried it when I got home from work, it turned on just fine and ran just fine. Maybe it dried up during those 8 hours in the heat?
I'm trying to figure out WHY something would not work in the morning, then SUDDENLY WORK later on ??? It's either BROKEN or NOT BROKEN...I don't get why it would work now and it didn't before? The only thing that changed was time passed. Nothing else was done to it. So that's why I'm figuring that this must eliminate a lot of potential issues because some issues don't just work and not work repeatedly....for example...the battery issue is OUT...if it was due to a dead battery....then 8 hours later, the car wouldn't suddenly work ok. If it's a dead battery, then it won't start EVER. I'm guessing there are a bunch more issues that could be eliminated from my case now knowing that it does start up and work fine right now even though it didn't in the morning. I'm guessing it has to do with the wetness around the engine and possibly wet spark plugs...that's probably why it worked 8 hours later in the hot weather when it dried up compared to the morning when it was probably nice and damp/wet.
Without being a trained mechanic, using simple logic this is what I believe and please correct me if I am wrong, or
applaud me for my detective work:
Why it's not a fuel pump issue: because from experience, when the fuel pump bad or goes, when you push down on the gas,
there is no response from the engine...no power....that means, the engine doesn't even rev to higher rpms...there's just no response.
That's a bad fuel pump.
What I experienced two weeks ago was no power when I gassed it, BUT my engine was revving up and going up to higher rpms
but there was no power response or very little of it. This to me means that the engine was still getting fuel but no power was going
to the wheels...so it sounds like it could be more transmission related(?)
I just went to check to my spark plugs and I was only able to remove the covers but not the plugs themselves because I didn't have
the proper removal tool. I had one of those hexagon bits for my other car (VW) but it didn't fit with this car.
What I did notice was it looked a little greasy/oily around the spark plugs. This would indicate to me that wherever this oil is coming from
it is possibly getting into the spark plugs (but the coil themselves were dry and clean ....confused).
I'll attempt to start the car again tomorrow morning and see if it runs fine or if it has the same trouble starting again. If it has the same trouble starting again, this may confirm it has something to do with wetness/dampness of the morning but later on when things are hot and dry, it runs fine.
applaud me for my detective work:
Why it's not a fuel pump issue: because from experience, when the fuel pump bad or goes, when you push down on the gas,
there is no response from the engine...no power....that means, the engine doesn't even rev to higher rpms...there's just no response.
That's a bad fuel pump.
What I experienced two weeks ago was no power when I gassed it, BUT my engine was revving up and going up to higher rpms
but there was no power response or very little of it. This to me means that the engine was still getting fuel but no power was going
to the wheels...so it sounds like it could be more transmission related(?)
I just went to check to my spark plugs and I was only able to remove the covers but not the plugs themselves because I didn't have
the proper removal tool. I had one of those hexagon bits for my other car (VW) but it didn't fit with this car.
What I did notice was it looked a little greasy/oily around the spark plugs. This would indicate to me that wherever this oil is coming from
it is possibly getting into the spark plugs (but the coil themselves were dry and clean ....confused).
I'll attempt to start the car again tomorrow morning and see if it runs fine or if it has the same trouble starting again. If it has the same trouble starting again, this may confirm it has something to do with wetness/dampness of the morning but later on when things are hot and dry, it runs fine.
Thanks for your in depth responses! It all helps to get more feedback from someone with more experience.
Your suggestion of doing all those things is valid and correct, but at this point, for a car that is almost 20 years old
and was value only at 1000 dollars, I'm assuming we are getting into the territory now of whether it is worth spending money
on fixing things or replacing parts (that may not even be the problem) just to figure out what the problem might be. It's that
"gamble" game of wondering...should I just put that money into buying another used car and hope it lasts me another 18 months or so?
I bought this car in 2017 of November with 72,000 km. If I'm done with it, it lasted me until mid-July 2019 at 80,000 km (so only drove
it about 8,000 km). I'd say that's actually a pretty good value for me since I don't drive long distances to and from work and it lasted me
18 months!
Thinking I should just do it again on another used car and aim for about 2 years lifespan give or take.
Your suggestion of doing all those things is valid and correct, but at this point, for a car that is almost 20 years old
and was value only at 1000 dollars, I'm assuming we are getting into the territory now of whether it is worth spending money
on fixing things or replacing parts (that may not even be the problem) just to figure out what the problem might be. It's that
"gamble" game of wondering...should I just put that money into buying another used car and hope it lasts me another 18 months or so?
I bought this car in 2017 of November with 72,000 km. If I'm done with it, it lasted me until mid-July 2019 at 80,000 km (so only drove
it about 8,000 km). I'd say that's actually a pretty good value for me since I don't drive long distances to and from work and it lasted me
18 months!
Thinking I should just do it again on another used car and aim for about 2 years lifespan give or take.
I took the car in again to a mechanic and the funny thing is they never ever mention that it could be a transmission issue (low fluids)
or some air leak. Looks like only something to do with oil leak.
The car has been turning on just fine again and driving fine again so that drives me nuts. Why it drives fine with no problems now when it had a hard time turning on and staying on the day before?
It obviously means something very key and important but I can't say specifically because I'm not an expert experienced mechanic but I'm betting my simple deduction and reasoning is on the right track.
The guy decided to just clean the engine bay top and bottom and said to drive it again for a couple days and come back so they can see where the leak might be coming from. He suspects I have to replace a gasket or something (seal?). He also suggested that I might have to change the spark plugs along with the coilovers(?) wires that connect to the alternator and the spark plugs (if I remember correctly). He said something about the faulty wires could be the cause why the car would suddenly lose power and turn off or struggle to turn on.
The funny thing is why mechanics don't check for other things like fuel pressure or a vacuum/air leak in the system? He basically just looks, cleans the engine, and tells me this and I pay him $30. Nothing has been fixed or changed so I'm just waiting for the car to break down on me again and next time it could be in the middle of busy traffic.
I consider most mechanics to be fairly honest and decent people....but you just never know. Without having experience, you don't know if they are really helping you out or if they just want to milk out as much money from you telling you to fix everything and replace everything as the method to try and fix the problem. That's pretty poor.
If a person has an ulcer in the stomach but the doctor doesn't know it and he suggest, why don't we run a dozen tests, remove body parts, swap out organs and do transplants to try and figure out what the problem is....that's just messed up. All it was is a stomach ulcer but they make you go and do $100K worth of work.
Here's a classic example of what I'm talking about. My other car is a VW. I took it into the VW dealership and when they finished examining it, did the oil change, brake fluid flush...they came back with a report in their white labcoats looking like they are sophisticated doctors or something telling me some bad news. They said, "It's really really bad". OK scare the hell out of me without being specific. He said they found a lot of oil splashed all over the engine area and it was just a mess and they couldn't figure out where it was coming from, they suggested it was something VERY SERIOUS and gave me a look as if they were saying, "Why did you buy this car? You just screwed yourself and 30K".
So I left the VW dealership feeling very worried (VW hahaha). I decided to take into a private mechanic who specializes with VW, AUDI cars. It was just the owner and one young man as an assistant. They cleaned up the engine and told me to drive for another week and come back so they can see where the leak is coming from. He said it's possible I could have to replace the TURBO which would cost me 2 grand + 600 for labor etc. A week later I came back and they checked the car and guess what? Within 10 minutes he found that it was a simple screw that wasn't tighten properly which was causing the turbo to leak oil. They replaced a couple washers/seals and tightened all the loose bolts and I drove away. I came back another week later just to check and they saw it was completely dry and clean! So that was the problem! That's all it was...just loose screws! He also didn't charge me any money because they didn't actually fix anything. That's how I know these guys are real honest and straight to the point. No gimmicks, no giving me the run around and telling me I have to replace this and than and everything and fork over 3 grand just over some loose screws.
That's what I mean. Sometimes the problem is very simple and I wouldn't have known it and they could have just been like, "Yeah your turbo is bad and you need to replace it" and I would have never known and I would have paid 3 grand and I'm sure they would have loved the business. I even offered a tip (cash) but he declined. Damn...that's a mechanic to keep for life! Just like dentists...when you find one you trust, you keep them forever...never let them go!
or some air leak. Looks like only something to do with oil leak.
The car has been turning on just fine again and driving fine again so that drives me nuts. Why it drives fine with no problems now when it had a hard time turning on and staying on the day before?
It obviously means something very key and important but I can't say specifically because I'm not an expert experienced mechanic but I'm betting my simple deduction and reasoning is on the right track.
The guy decided to just clean the engine bay top and bottom and said to drive it again for a couple days and come back so they can see where the leak might be coming from. He suspects I have to replace a gasket or something (seal?). He also suggested that I might have to change the spark plugs along with the coilovers(?) wires that connect to the alternator and the spark plugs (if I remember correctly). He said something about the faulty wires could be the cause why the car would suddenly lose power and turn off or struggle to turn on.
The funny thing is why mechanics don't check for other things like fuel pressure or a vacuum/air leak in the system? He basically just looks, cleans the engine, and tells me this and I pay him $30. Nothing has been fixed or changed so I'm just waiting for the car to break down on me again and next time it could be in the middle of busy traffic.
I consider most mechanics to be fairly honest and decent people....but you just never know. Without having experience, you don't know if they are really helping you out or if they just want to milk out as much money from you telling you to fix everything and replace everything as the method to try and fix the problem. That's pretty poor.
If a person has an ulcer in the stomach but the doctor doesn't know it and he suggest, why don't we run a dozen tests, remove body parts, swap out organs and do transplants to try and figure out what the problem is....that's just messed up. All it was is a stomach ulcer but they make you go and do $100K worth of work.
Here's a classic example of what I'm talking about. My other car is a VW. I took it into the VW dealership and when they finished examining it, did the oil change, brake fluid flush...they came back with a report in their white labcoats looking like they are sophisticated doctors or something telling me some bad news. They said, "It's really really bad". OK scare the hell out of me without being specific. He said they found a lot of oil splashed all over the engine area and it was just a mess and they couldn't figure out where it was coming from, they suggested it was something VERY SERIOUS and gave me a look as if they were saying, "Why did you buy this car? You just screwed yourself and 30K".
So I left the VW dealership feeling very worried (VW hahaha). I decided to take into a private mechanic who specializes with VW, AUDI cars. It was just the owner and one young man as an assistant. They cleaned up the engine and told me to drive for another week and come back so they can see where the leak is coming from. He said it's possible I could have to replace the TURBO which would cost me 2 grand + 600 for labor etc. A week later I came back and they checked the car and guess what? Within 10 minutes he found that it was a simple screw that wasn't tighten properly which was causing the turbo to leak oil. They replaced a couple washers/seals and tightened all the loose bolts and I drove away. I came back another week later just to check and they saw it was completely dry and clean! So that was the problem! That's all it was...just loose screws! He also didn't charge me any money because they didn't actually fix anything. That's how I know these guys are real honest and straight to the point. No gimmicks, no giving me the run around and telling me I have to replace this and than and everything and fork over 3 grand just over some loose screws.
That's what I mean. Sometimes the problem is very simple and I wouldn't have known it and they could have just been like, "Yeah your turbo is bad and you need to replace it" and I would have never known and I would have paid 3 grand and I'm sure they would have loved the business. I even offered a tip (cash) but he declined. Damn...that's a mechanic to keep for life! Just like dentists...when you find one you trust, you keep them forever...never let them go!
Edited by cornflakes2 on Wednesday 17th July 06:04
Edited by cornflakes2 on Wednesday 17th July 06:08
GreenV8S said:
It seems you've found somebody competent to investigate the problem. That's a good idea. Let them get on with it. Your 'simple deduction and reasoning' is mostly nonsensical. It's clear you have no understanding of engines and no idea what the symptoms indicate. And that's fine, no reason you should have. But please stop pretending you're diagnosing the problem.
Really? Then why don't you suggest something better because you haven't said anything. My deduction is very reasonable and it's pretty accurate. If I'm wrong, please correct me, instead of just sitting there like you are an expert to judge me when you haven't contributed a single thing. As I said, it's not a wearing out clutch, it's doubtful it's a low transmission fluid, we know it's not a dying battery, it's not a bad fuel pump, so it only comes down to this oil leak around the engine seals, possible electrical/wiring issue and/or something related to either the coils or spark plugs.How is this unreasonable? For a guy who isn't trained in auto mechanics, I'd say this is pretty good detective work so far. What have you contributed? I appreciate the people who have something constructive to add to this mystery/puzzle (which all car problems are..it's basically like detective work ...same with doctors), but those who want to just criticize without having anything original of their own to add to this should just not reply. I don't need arrogant mechanics here to be condescending.
As I said, even VW dealership couldn't figure out a simple turbo leak and a private mechanic caught that EASILY and saved me 3000 dollars. That's the difference between honest mechanics who know their stuff and mechanics who are just lazy and tell you to replace a dozen parts without actually investigating.
Mexman said:
You paid a grand for a 2001 Matiz ???? 
Please don't tell me this was recently?
Its £200 Quid's worth, if that.
As others have said, you shouldn't assume. I did not pay a grand (quid). I'm in a foreign country where a grand here is probably about $750 USD. I've had it for 18 months so, yes, I got my value from it and then some if you do the math. It's not like I'm getting ripped off here. Also, with only 72,000 km at the time...most used cars around here don't sell for under a grand. You'd be looking at around 1.5K - 2.5K for a early 2000ish car with 100,000 km on it give or take....Please don't tell me this was recently?
Its £200 Quid's worth, if that.
freddytin said:
I think you are overthinking the problem. The Matiz is a simple reliable car, and from the lengthy description of the issue it seems as if it's misfiring on one cylinder.
A new set of ignition leads and plugs should see the old girl back in " Action" .
Agreed Freddy. That's why it's very cheap around here, maintenance costs, road tax, toll fees, insurance is VERY CHEAP for the matiz car. I pay only $40 a year for tax, and only $250 for car insurance for the whole year. I spend only $40 per month on gas. It's super popular for low budget economical daily driver for short runs and errands. There are plenty around here and yes, they are one of the simplest and most basic and cheapest cars to maintain, repair and deal with especially since I'm living in the country of the manufacturer of this car. A new set of ignition leads and plugs should see the old girl back in " Action" .
Funny thing is the car has been working fine again for the past 2 days now...I drove it back and forth to work and it's been no problem!
It bugs me more when something doesn't work then suddenly works again because I have no idea what to expect and will worry it can happen again at anytime. I'd rather the car just be permanently damaged so that I can rest my case and just scrap it and buy another one. But since it's working fine and we are still in the process of checking on it, I have to deal with it for now until the next time it happens. I'm also one of those people who don't like throwing things away if they can be fixed. I prefer to salvage things, give it a chance, and find solutions to repair or prolong the life rather than to just throw it away, wipe my hands clean, and start brand new over again.
Edited by cornflakes2 on Wednesday 17th July 16:34
GreenV8S said:
I don't see any point. Other posters have already given you diagnostic advice which I think is entirely sensible and would have enabled somebody with basic mechanical skills and a willingness to get their hands dirty to locate the problem. From your responses it's clear that you are not that person. That's not meant as an insult; very few people have practical experience fixing cars and there's no reason you should have.
You seem to think that you are reasoning your way to a diagnosis. My reply was trying to advise you that your reasoning does not actually make much sense and that you would be better off stepping back and letting your mechanic get on with it. I think that if you read the other recent responses in this thread you will get the sense that I am not the only one thinking that.
Yeah and if you read other people's posts, you would see that they gave me good advice and contributed to my problem solving work here so they can say that. You haven't offered anything other than to assume you know me and think I don't know anything about cars. You seem to think that you are reasoning your way to a diagnosis. My reply was trying to advise you that your reasoning does not actually make much sense and that you would be better off stepping back and letting your mechanic get on with it. I think that if you read the other recent responses in this thread you will get the sense that I am not the only one thinking that.
I really appreciate all the awesome people here who give me good advice and keep it professional and stay on topic, but I'm not surprised there are always those few people that feel the need to turn it personal and sit there and act all condescending without adding any value to the discussion.
Nobody is asking you for an opinion about the way I problem solve. If you have something to say about the actual topic, please feel free to add, but other than, please keep your own judgments to yourself.
FiF said:
Just to throw one thing into the mix, these cars are known for an issue with the wiring loom in the engine bay where it passes over the gearbox. Quite a few had a wire trapped or nipped during assembly, over the years it fatigues and you get an intermittent fault, sometimes it runs, sometimes it runs badly rather like a bad misfire and sometimes it just won't start or dies abruptly when running. Ask me how I know.
Thanks for that pointer! This is very good to know (which I didn't!). I'm grateful you mentioned this because it sounds like what I am experiencing!
stevieturbo said:
Another internet thread strikes again.
Sell the car and buy another that doesnt have any faults.
But a competent mechanic could perform many tests....all at your expense. But if this intermittent problem is not actually happening at the time...all the tests in the world, at any cost may not help.
So are you prepared to pay for all this ? On a car that has little monetary value ? it makes little sense.
If you do not understand how to diagnose vehicle problems, or their systems, or how they work, there is no sense in trying to apply your own so called logic or reasoning to how others might do so. Especially those with actual experience.
Even more so an intermittent problem, which can be a myriad of things.
Diagnosing problems can be very difficult, and the worst are intermittent ones.
Yup, agreed. That's the debate I'm having which is the problem. I know I could easily buy another used car. The struggle is just trying to figure out and get a straight answer from anyone (mechanic that I visit) to tell me what the problem is, how much it costs to repair it so that I can make my decision if it's worth it or not. So far, since the costs are minimal (spark plug/coilover/wiring harness change), I am willing to go that far. Anything more than that or a couple hundred bucks range, I'll probably decide to just get another used car.Sell the car and buy another that doesnt have any faults.
But a competent mechanic could perform many tests....all at your expense. But if this intermittent problem is not actually happening at the time...all the tests in the world, at any cost may not help.
So are you prepared to pay for all this ? On a car that has little monetary value ? it makes little sense.
If you do not understand how to diagnose vehicle problems, or their systems, or how they work, there is no sense in trying to apply your own so called logic or reasoning to how others might do so. Especially those with actual experience.
Even more so an intermittent problem, which can be a myriad of things.
Diagnosing problems can be very difficult, and the worst are intermittent ones.
You are absolutely right about mechanics being able to do all the tests in the world on my car AT MY EXPENSE and still not figure out the problem. That's what's frustrating about it. That's why it reminded me about my turbo leak issue and how sometimes the problem is SO SIMPLE but because of incompetency on their end, I end up having to pay a 3K bill, but thankfully I had honest mechanics who were competent and saved me 3K. If even VW dealership were caught to be this incompetent, with all due respect, of course whenever I ask any questions on internet boards, I always take the responses from people with a grain of salt.
It's more about just learning through these experiences and getting as much input and details to widen my understanding.
freddytin said:
Back Again, with a simple suggestion to eliminate the possibility of a short on the H.T. circuit causing a miss-fire.
Ideally, you require darkness and silence, then armed with a water mist spray / bottle of some kind gently wet the areas from the ignition coil along the leads to the plugs.
If you have a breakdown in the insulation, there will be significant sparks accompanied by a noticeable cracking sound.
This is something you can do to help identify the issue which negates the need for you to spend unnecessarily.
Good Luck, and please don't take comments the wrong way from other contributors. It is clear they are only offering what they feel is sound advice....even if that means "Leave Well Alone".
Edit to add. When you have finished, spray dampened areas with W.D 40 and dry with a clean lint-free cloth..I wouldnt want to be causing you further troubles
Thanks again for the tip.Ideally, you require darkness and silence, then armed with a water mist spray / bottle of some kind gently wet the areas from the ignition coil along the leads to the plugs.
If you have a breakdown in the insulation, there will be significant sparks accompanied by a noticeable cracking sound.
This is something you can do to help identify the issue which negates the need for you to spend unnecessarily.
Good Luck, and please don't take comments the wrong way from other contributors. It is clear they are only offering what they feel is sound advice....even if that means "Leave Well Alone".
Edit to add. When you have finished, spray dampened areas with W.D 40 and dry with a clean lint-free cloth..I wouldnt want to be causing you further troubles
Edited by freddytin on Thursday 18th July 08:17
I was just watching this video by ChrisFix and he lays out very clearly and simply the 5 things to check for when you have a crank but the engine doesn't start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNhuDCVIydw
It's so clear and beautiful and works just like solving a mystery by deduction and simply narrowing down the possible causes until you find it.
After it drove fine for a couple more days, I left it parked for about 3 days and it was lightly raining outside and I went to start the car again and same thing happened....long cranking but no engine starting. I'm wondering if dampness/wetness maybe causing a short (or it ground?) in the distributor cap...I just saw another video about drying the distributor / coils to start a car that cranks but doesn't start. I will have to give that a try also.
But I do recall when I was at the shop, they hosed it down with water(?) or some kind of cleaning spray so I'd imagine if it was water, wouldn't that make my car not start when it was there? After they sprayed it down (cleaning), it started up and ran just fine out of the garage....so that sort of goes opposite to my thoughts.
UPDATE: It was dark here so I did a water mist spray and brought my gopro to record the engine area while I cranked it and there was no evidence of any spark or cracking sounds.
Would plugging in a bluetooth OBD2 device work with this model matiz? I have one I used for my VW but I guess I should try and see if it works on this car and if I can pull any fault codes to tell me what the problem is.
Edited by cornflakes2 on Saturday 20th July 18:23
Yes, the oil level is perfect.
Tonight I'm going to check if I can connect to the OBD2 port and see if I can pull any fault codes if the car doesn't want to start again.
The other thing I believe I should be able to check without much problem is the fuel pressure. I just have to find where the schrader valve is
and get some cloth around it and press it with screw driver and see if oil comes spraying out (which would mean fuel pressure is not the problem).
Since I don't have one of those manual fuel pressure gauges, this is the method I found on the net to test it.
I don't have the tools to take out the spark plugs and check to see if all of them have spark while cranking the engine nor do I have that little gap spacing
device to check to see if the gaps are good.
I would really like to buy a bunch of these handy tools to use at home for maintenance and self-checking. I really think most of the basic maintenance checks can be done by ourselves....anything more complicated then the mechanics should deal with that but I'm a bit disappointed how mechanics here (the shop I went to) don't even perform the basics tests as I mentioned above...why didn't they check the fuel pressure? spark plugs? ...the only thing I saw them do was a visual check, hose down the engine to clean the leak and spent about 1 hour total (40 minutes waiting, 20 minutes service) and I got charged 33 bucks ....
Tonight I'm going to check if I can connect to the OBD2 port and see if I can pull any fault codes if the car doesn't want to start again.
The other thing I believe I should be able to check without much problem is the fuel pressure. I just have to find where the schrader valve is
and get some cloth around it and press it with screw driver and see if oil comes spraying out (which would mean fuel pressure is not the problem).
Since I don't have one of those manual fuel pressure gauges, this is the method I found on the net to test it.
I don't have the tools to take out the spark plugs and check to see if all of them have spark while cranking the engine nor do I have that little gap spacing
device to check to see if the gaps are good.
I would really like to buy a bunch of these handy tools to use at home for maintenance and self-checking. I really think most of the basic maintenance checks can be done by ourselves....anything more complicated then the mechanics should deal with that but I'm a bit disappointed how mechanics here (the shop I went to) don't even perform the basics tests as I mentioned above...why didn't they check the fuel pressure? spark plugs? ...the only thing I saw them do was a visual check, hose down the engine to clean the leak and spent about 1 hour total (40 minutes waiting, 20 minutes service) and I got charged 33 bucks ....
Agreed but unfortunately they didn't actually do anything as far as fixing the problem or even find the problem.
If they at least found the problem and did something, I have no problem paying. But simply telling me what I already
knew and could see for myself, making me wait 40 minutes of my time (I had to take off work) and then charging me 33 bucks
just seems little stiff to me.
I've had experiences where mechanics would do visual checks, even OBD2, do minor cleaning with brake cleaner, fill air in
my tires and never charge me anything because they didn't find the problem or do anything. One time I had a guy actually
take out my throttle body and just wipe it around and put it back in and it looked like it wasn't that easy for him but he didn't charge
me anything because it was just a checking/trying to diagnose the issue.
The difficult part with mechanic shops is that the lines are very blurry. There's no concrete or set rule as to when the clock starts ticking
on being charged for their time, what constitutes labor, what constitutes something valid for being charged for.
If it's a mechanic you know, have had history with, had fixed and serviced your vehicles before, then that's a different story. You have a working
relationship with them and you know them. But whenever I go to new shops that I have no idea who they are and what their reputation is like,
its seriously a guessing game. Some do a lot of service and barely charge you a dime. Others do almost nothing and charge you 20 bucks or something for just being in their space.
The last time I was here, I mentioned they just topped off my oil, and it's not like they were using synthetic or any high quality oil and I could have
just bought a bottle myself for $5 and do it myself but they charged me $15...I don't know how they come to that total but I didn't bother to ask and I just paid it.
Anyways, if the car starts in the morning, I'll be taking it back to them to see what they find now it's been a few days. I guess I better ask up front how much they are going to charge me this time for taking a 2nd look.
If they at least found the problem and did something, I have no problem paying. But simply telling me what I already
knew and could see for myself, making me wait 40 minutes of my time (I had to take off work) and then charging me 33 bucks
just seems little stiff to me.
I've had experiences where mechanics would do visual checks, even OBD2, do minor cleaning with brake cleaner, fill air in
my tires and never charge me anything because they didn't find the problem or do anything. One time I had a guy actually
take out my throttle body and just wipe it around and put it back in and it looked like it wasn't that easy for him but he didn't charge
me anything because it was just a checking/trying to diagnose the issue.
The difficult part with mechanic shops is that the lines are very blurry. There's no concrete or set rule as to when the clock starts ticking
on being charged for their time, what constitutes labor, what constitutes something valid for being charged for.
If it's a mechanic you know, have had history with, had fixed and serviced your vehicles before, then that's a different story. You have a working
relationship with them and you know them. But whenever I go to new shops that I have no idea who they are and what their reputation is like,
its seriously a guessing game. Some do a lot of service and barely charge you a dime. Others do almost nothing and charge you 20 bucks or something for just being in their space.
The last time I was here, I mentioned they just topped off my oil, and it's not like they were using synthetic or any high quality oil and I could have
just bought a bottle myself for $5 and do it myself but they charged me $15...I don't know how they come to that total but I didn't bother to ask and I just paid it.
Anyways, if the car starts in the morning, I'll be taking it back to them to see what they find now it's been a few days. I guess I better ask up front how much they are going to charge me this time for taking a 2nd look.
I tried starting the car again tonight and didn't turn on...just long cranking. It rained all day so it was still very damp and wet... my hypothesis about the wet/damp air/conditions or moisture still seems to be consistent. It turns on when the whether was nice hot and sunny, and the days it didn't turn on was early in the morning or on raindy/wet days. Maybe just coincidence.
I have the ELM327 mini OBDII bluetooth device but it seems like the shape was different and I wasn't able to plug it into my matiz OBDII port.
I'm not sure if the ELM327 mini is compatible but I thought it would be....it has 16 pins just like all OBDII ports and the matiz but the shape of the port on the matiz is rectangular the ELM327 mini I have is a trapezoid.
Next I checked this schrader valve...I don't know if this is the fuel pressure line or something else. I pressed it with a screw driver and the pressure was very strong however I was expecting gas/fuel to come flying out but I only got air. Is this not the fuel line? Maybe it's another line I tapped into.
The picture is below:
I also checked this wire in the picture below (labeled B) and I took it off and put it back on. I don't know what it is (labeled A). When I looked into the wire, it looked like there were some loose wires inside and the little nipple it goes onto is just a solid piece of metal...not connectors or anything. Is that supposed to be like that?
The timing belt (tensioner belt?) was nice and tight so I don't think it's a "timing" issue which was checklist number 5 (on ChrisFix video).
Here's the pic of what it looks like when the yellow end of the wire is fastened back onto that metal nipple.
I have the ELM327 mini OBDII bluetooth device but it seems like the shape was different and I wasn't able to plug it into my matiz OBDII port.
I'm not sure if the ELM327 mini is compatible but I thought it would be....it has 16 pins just like all OBDII ports and the matiz but the shape of the port on the matiz is rectangular the ELM327 mini I have is a trapezoid.
Next I checked this schrader valve...I don't know if this is the fuel pressure line or something else. I pressed it with a screw driver and the pressure was very strong however I was expecting gas/fuel to come flying out but I only got air. Is this not the fuel line? Maybe it's another line I tapped into.
The picture is below:
I also checked this wire in the picture below (labeled B) and I took it off and put it back on. I don't know what it is (labeled A). When I looked into the wire, it looked like there were some loose wires inside and the little nipple it goes onto is just a solid piece of metal...not connectors or anything. Is that supposed to be like that?
The timing belt (tensioner belt?) was nice and tight so I don't think it's a "timing" issue which was checklist number 5 (on ChrisFix video).
Here's the pic of what it looks like when the yellow end of the wire is fastened back onto that metal nipple.
Edited by cornflakes2 on Sunday 21st July 16:33
Well some people are helpful here and some people are just bored and have nothing better to do than to waste time.
If you are the latter, by all means, please do move on. That will be a very helpful to me than if you actually post some "filler" comments to pet your own egos.
Back on topic, if the car will ever start again (waiting for the wet weather to pass and dry/hot conditions to return), I'll be taking it back into the shop to proceed to the next step. Hopefully it is something as small as just spark plugs issue. Obviously I couldn't get anything done for the last few days because I was supposed to wait and drive it around a bit so they could find where the oil leak is coming from (whether that has anything to do with the non-starting issue or not).
If you are the latter, by all means, please do move on. That will be a very helpful to me than if you actually post some "filler" comments to pet your own egos.
Back on topic, if the car will ever start again (waiting for the wet weather to pass and dry/hot conditions to return), I'll be taking it back into the shop to proceed to the next step. Hopefully it is something as small as just spark plugs issue. Obviously I couldn't get anything done for the last few days because I was supposed to wait and drive it around a bit so they could find where the oil leak is coming from (whether that has anything to do with the non-starting issue or not).
I also found this: an english manual of the car (Daewoo Matiz). Wow! It's nice to have an english manual so I can actually read something.
I always thought you had to pay for this but it looks like this has all of it (1184 pages).
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1212501/Daewoo-M...
I always thought you had to pay for this but it looks like this has all of it (1184 pages).
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1212501/Daewoo-M...
Edited by cornflakes2 on Monday 22 July 01:52
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