Snap General Election?
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
The post I quoted denigrated youths as a whole. From what I can see, they nowadays have to work harder that I ever had to do. There is no difference between this generation that any of those I've seen before. They deal with the circumstances they have been dealt.
The increase in fees brought in by the tories was a political move. It actually costs more than the system brought in by the previous government. This was pointed out by a number of commentators, on both sides of the political divide, before going live but Cameron decided to go ahead regardless. No wonder they have the title of nasty party.
The country needs graduates. Many companies have complained before the massive increase in fees that there are not enough for their needs. This problem will increase if we lose free movement. I accept that it is not the function of universities to be a training ground for industry, but that's what has happened in the past.
It certainly does not. It needs suitably qualified people, only a proportion of whom will need to have a degree.The increase in fees brought in by the tories was a political move. It actually costs more than the system brought in by the previous government. This was pointed out by a number of commentators, on both sides of the political divide, before going live but Cameron decided to go ahead regardless. No wonder they have the title of nasty party.
The country needs graduates. Many companies have complained before the massive increase in fees that there are not enough for their needs. This problem will increase if we lose free movement. I accept that it is not the function of universities to be a training ground for industry, but that's what has happened in the past.
Derek Smith said:
You suggest that there is no such thing as free money. Well it seems that there is, for industry, the expectation of free training for their purposes. Perhaps, using your arguments, they should pay for it.
University education, if not all state education, is a shambles in this country. We need to get a grip. We, that's everyone, need an educated and motivated younger generation. Yet all that seems to happen is that it is criticised.
I had to pay for some of my qualifications, yet the company I was working for at the time needed people with my new skills. I asked for help, they refused.
We need to realise that a university degree is only appropriate / necessary for a small proportion of people.University education, if not all state education, is a shambles in this country. We need to get a grip. We, that's everyone, need an educated and motivated younger generation. Yet all that seems to happen is that it is criticised.
I had to pay for some of my qualifications, yet the company I was working for at the time needed people with my new skills. I asked for help, they refused.
We need to realise that the government should support training for people, but that doesn't mean paying for everything.
We need to people to realise that a university education is expensive and that they need to pay for this, either up front, or in arrears from their future earnings, better aligning the benefits and costs!
Oakey said:
fishseller said:
The problem with the Tories campaign was the personal attacks on Corbyn , most knew he was a chancier and fool what she should of done is explain people how the numbers don’t add up and to explain to the youth that there is no such thing as free money it has to be earned if you want things in life you have to work hard for it, you get free education until your 18 and if you want further education you have to pay for it ( to eliminate pointless studies) or go to work or if you are a genius you get sponsored also offering free university to European union students WTF? Personal attacks never work people will find out what they need to know.
A campaign based on telling people a) what they don't want to hear and b) don't care about Vs a campaign that's based on promising the moon on a stick wouldn't work. They can't even get over the fact their man lost, do you really think telling them there's no money to pay for all of JC's bribes and that it's all about hard work is going to go down well?
k of somewhere warm ( if they will have us) 
Derek Smith said:
Slagathore said:
When were you at college?
Times are changing, people are changing. Your generation will be vastly different to the college-aged generation we have now. Even now from my generation to college/uni generation, things are changing.
It was a direct bribe because Corbyn promised those starting this September it would be free. So if you were heading off to uni this summer, who are you going to vote for?
They were fully prepared and accepting of the fees before, but with just a simple vote, gone. It's so obviously just to manipulate the students. Same with writing off student debt.
Many will say they agree that certain degrees should be tuition free or part or fully funded. That seems logical to get the skills and quality of graduates we need.
But what we don't need are the idiots going to do media studies only to take a job in a call centre when they can't get a proper job after leaving, you don't need a degree for that! And the taxpayers don't want to be funding it either.
If someone is happy to go to uni and get into debt to do a weak degree, that is their decision. If you go to uni and do a proper degree, it is an investment and one that anyone should be happy paying for given the payoff over the rest of your life.
Now look through their manifesto and take students aside and look at how they've won votes from other demographics with similar promises.
I guess all manifestos are bribery to an extent, as people will generally vote for what is best for them personally. This is nothing new, though, so why the Tories made no effort with theirs is baffling.
What do you consider a weak degree? One that doesn't pay much? That would include nursing, midwifery, police work and more. Are these 'weak'. They are certainly not an investment.Times are changing, people are changing. Your generation will be vastly different to the college-aged generation we have now. Even now from my generation to college/uni generation, things are changing.
It was a direct bribe because Corbyn promised those starting this September it would be free. So if you were heading off to uni this summer, who are you going to vote for?
They were fully prepared and accepting of the fees before, but with just a simple vote, gone. It's so obviously just to manipulate the students. Same with writing off student debt.
Many will say they agree that certain degrees should be tuition free or part or fully funded. That seems logical to get the skills and quality of graduates we need.
But what we don't need are the idiots going to do media studies only to take a job in a call centre when they can't get a proper job after leaving, you don't need a degree for that! And the taxpayers don't want to be funding it either.
If someone is happy to go to uni and get into debt to do a weak degree, that is their decision. If you go to uni and do a proper degree, it is an investment and one that anyone should be happy paying for given the payoff over the rest of your life.
Now look through their manifesto and take students aside and look at how they've won votes from other demographics with similar promises.
I guess all manifestos are bribery to an extent, as people will generally vote for what is best for them personally. This is nothing new, though, so why the Tories made no effort with theirs is baffling.
One investment might be to ensure that, now we are leaving the EU and losing free movement of labour (presumably), we have a well educated workforce. That's what companies are demanding, although they seem to lack the willingness to pay for it.
As you say, all manifestos are bribes to a certain extent. What's wrong with chasing an ignored demographic, one that is lumbered with enough debts from previous generations without having to accept their own?
The current generation at uni and college are indeed different to an extent. They are certainly working harder than mine ever did.
You suggest that students were fully prepared to accept university fees. From what I've seen with regards student demonstrations, and what I've seen written, they were resentful but, and good on them, realised that they had to live with the hand they were dealt with the present government.
What destroyed the libdems was their backtracking on uni fees. There was no acceptance of massive debts there.
I've got four kids, two of whom went through uni. From what I've seen of them and their friends, their generations are grafters.
Bribes: that's what manifestos are, and have been for some years. Churchill was finally voted in when he promised an immediate end to rationing, despite the country still being in difficult financial circumstances. You remember him, voted greatest ever Briton. Yet he bribed people for his own ends.
Derek Smith said:
Yipper said:
Young adults only turned out in numbers because Corbyn shrewdly offered ~2 million of them ~£30k of free money to spend ~4 years drinking and sh*gging. Let's not pretend there was some magical wand of persuasion waved over them. It was a smart political bribe, pure and simple.
[Stuff about brexit not relevant to the matter I posted.]
That is your opinion. When I was at college there was a tremendous interest in politics. There were discussions and arguments. The students were informed. My experience is that people become less informed as they get older, voting for a party whatever the situation. [Stuff about brexit not relevant to the matter I posted.]
You seem to suggest that voting for self interest is accepting a bribe. That's one point of view. However, what is the tory manifesto but a bribe to those of a certain demographic? What's the betting that the next tory manifesto won't include anything about taking money from old people? Vote for me and I'll do things you like. No difference.
I'm a supporter of no fees for university education. That's not a bribe to me.
You seem to be pretending that all youngsters are mired in self interest. That's not my experience. They take up interest in green politics, take a stance on global warming for a better world to be handed over to their children. The main criticism of them, pre this election, was that they were too evangelical and were likely to vote on moral rather than practical grounds.
k it, I'm going to leave with a five figure debt, I might as well borrow and spend as much as I possibly can". It's hardly setting them up for life is it? And it's part of the reason that most people under 30 have such a sense of entitlement.JC has bought the vote of pretty much everyone under 25. I'm pretty right wing in most respects (would never have voted for Blair's new Labour, nevermind anything more left of that). But if I was 18 or still at Uni right now, I'd have voted for JC's labour in this election. It maybe a selfish thing to do (and it makes me feel dirty just thinking about it).
The only way for the conservatives to have any chance of coming back from their current state, is to get in a younger leader, and attempt to get in touch with the youth. In recent times, they've been reliant on young people note bothering to vote, but JC has now motivated them, and I can only see more people voting Labour in the next election, whenever that is.
jjlynn27 said:
I spoke with few friends today, and we all voted Cons. All of them find it unpalatable that TM is jumping into bed with people who think that homosexuality is worse than child abuse.
why not wait and see how this will work as yet nobody really knows.I don't want another Election we need a "strong stable Government" sorry couldn't resist that.
We do need a period of calm and discussion and maybe what happened on Thursday may eventually lead to a better overall outcome for the Country.
sidicks said:
jjlynn27 said:
Yes, stick the same label on 'these young people'. That's not stupid at all.
Eh? Why do you think there was an increase in the young vote - which of Corbyn's policies do you think attracted them most?Yipper said:
Young adults only turned out in numbers because Corbyn shrewdly offered ~2 million of them ~£30k of free money to spend ~4 years drinking and sh*gging. Let's not pretend there was some magical wand of persuasion waved over them. It was a smart political bribe, pure and simple.
Peston reporting that formal coalition now being sought:
https://www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/186199945...
https://www.facebook.com/pestonitv/posts/186199945...
RedTrident said:
The Tories would be more stupid then they have been in this campaign to ignore the young in their next campaign.
I admire the backing your guy (or May in this instance). But demonising the young because they voted. Laughable.
Demonising?I admire the backing your guy (or May in this instance). But demonising the young because they voted. Laughable.
Not sure anyone is doing that. Just identifying why a significant proportion of the young voted for Corbyn this time.
RedTrident said:
The Tories would be more stupid then they have been in this campaign to ignore the young in their next campaign.
I admire the backing your guy (or May in this instance). But demonising the young because they voted. Laughable.
Demonising is OTT.I admire the backing your guy (or May in this instance). But demonising the young because they voted. Laughable.
Exploring obvious motives is no such thing. Those doing so are demonising nobody.
johnxjsc1985 said:
why not wait and see how this will work as yet nobody really knows.
I don't want another Election we need a "strong stable Government" sorry couldn't resist that.
We do need a period of calm and discussion and maybe what happened on Thursday may eventually lead to a better overall outcome for the Country.
If what the media are reporting is true the way it will work is a formal coalition.I don't want another Election we need a "strong stable Government" sorry couldn't resist that.
We do need a period of calm and discussion and maybe what happened on Thursday may eventually lead to a better overall outcome for the Country.
robemcdonald said:
sidicks said:
robemcdonald said:
Unfortunately her attempts to cling on to power have a real danger of damaging the country as a result.
It's fairly easy to see a deal with the DUP derailing peace in Northern Ireland. How can you broker peace between two groups when one has leverage on you? Who knows we may have to worry about more than Islamic terrorists in the near future, but maybe that's a bit project fear.
Her mandate to negotiate Brexit with the EU is basically gone. She has shown herself as someone very easily persuaded to change her mind. In negotiations she would fold quicker than superman in an origami competition.
She has gone to the queen to ask permission to form a government without an agreement with her coalition partners. This means she will have to give them what they want without question. How is that being a good negotiator?
The picture you have is someone who shoots from the hip without thinking things through, then backtracks afterwards.
Strong and stable my arse.
No idea where you get that from - it's not intended to be a formal coalition, is it?It's fairly easy to see a deal with the DUP derailing peace in Northern Ireland. How can you broker peace between two groups when one has leverage on you? Who knows we may have to worry about more than Islamic terrorists in the near future, but maybe that's a bit project fear.
Her mandate to negotiate Brexit with the EU is basically gone. She has shown herself as someone very easily persuaded to change her mind. In negotiations she would fold quicker than superman in an origami competition.
She has gone to the queen to ask permission to form a government without an agreement with her coalition partners. This means she will have to give them what they want without question. How is that being a good negotiator?
The picture you have is someone who shoots from the hip without thinking things through, then backtracks afterwards.
Strong and stable my arse.
-Theresa May has told the country she is going to form a government with a coalition with DUP.
-She hasn't agreed the terms of the proposed coalition. This was pretty much admitted by Chris Grayling on question time last night.
-When she tries to broker a deal with the DUP they can ask for whatever they want.
-If she says no they walk away.
-Once again she ends up with egg on her face.
-The Tories will do what they do best.
-Boris is PM.
In summary she has painted herself into a corner.
t crazy but I doubt they are politically stupid.I agree with Derek on some aspects of the positives of this result, not on all his points, but its a fairly balanced view to take.
I think May is now holed below the water, I think the plan will be to see out the initial stages of the Brexit process, maybe even to the end if the DUP alliance is workable, then she will be replaced in good time for the next General Election. Who replaces her is up in the air, its far too early to say, but there is no doubt she wont be heading the Tories into the next election. That's very bad news for Labour under Corbyn.
Garvin said:
RedTrident said:
1. The electorate are not that stupid. Its a coalition
2. She's killing the peace process with her statement about the Tories close relationship with the DUP
Over the next few days I will be interested in seeing what former leaders like Major think about this.
Coalition? I'll believe that when I see a DUP Cabinet Minister. Until that point it will be a loose association....2. She's killing the peace process with her statement about the Tories close relationship with the DUP
Over the next few days I will be interested in seeing what former leaders like Major think about this.
From Tory MPs to ordinary voters that have been loyal. I expect a backlash. Only a matter of how soon. She is destroying the reputation of her party and damaging them for generations to come.
turbobloke said:
Demonising is OTT.
Exploring obvious motives is no such thing. Those doing so are demonising nobody.
Everyone has obvious motives. That's why you and I and everyone else votes.Exploring obvious motives is no such thing. Those doing so are demonising nobody.
I'm comfortable with using the term demonising. Especially in the context that the young went out and voted Labour.
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