Star Wars: The Last Jedi (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

[Foliage]

AshVX220 said:

Foliage said:

Me too, I fell asleep... Even my rage couldn't keep me engaged.

Some of the changes are hilarious too, trying to address some of the fan outrage...

Changes? What changes? (Or are these changes to reviews?)

the cinema release is a short version (this is normal) the dvd and blueray versions are usually longer, in TFA it was mainly dogfighting/CGI that was added. But in TLJ the FIN/Phasma fight was changed, more exposition was added in parts (the Curly haired resistance officer was more prominent, lea's aid?) and ackbar was mentioned by name for his sacrifice, also the falcon flying underground was lengthened. These are just the bits I noticed, In the version I watched. And also I did fall asleep.

An extended addition will be forth coming id imagine.

[Halb]

AndStilliRise said:

Perhaps with new levels of rage:
Use the rage Luke

TBH I am still shocked how they took something brilliant, for the last 30yrs and ruin it so effortlessly. Go Disney!

Disney saw what George did and then said, 'hold my beer.'

[Guvernator]

It's not that the story didn't tell me what I was expecting, it's that the story they came up with was rubbish and just not that interesting which IS a valid criticism IMO. Trying to take it in a different direction is OK as long as that direction is better and this just wasn't.

Besides the story was just one of many problems with it. Illogical plot points, illogical character arcs, unlikable characters and a total disregard for the lore and characters that we grew up with. Yes it's an imaginary sci-fi universe but if you've spent decades establishing a certain rule set, lore and characters for that universe, don't just flush it all down the toilet or if you do, have a VERY good reason for doing so. This film didn't present me with any reasonable or enjoyable reasons for why it should do that. It just felt like trying to be different for the sake of being different and it didn't work for me.

[Halb]

chris watton said:

'Haters'! What are you, 12?

Stop hating Chris!!! Just stop it!

[r11co]

p1stonhead said:

The Force Awakens set up a load of stuff which just got disgarded. It wasnt just in people's heads.

The entire Star Wars back catalogue set up a load of stuff that just got disregarded.

The Force - forget discipline and training, anyone can use it if they want it

The Empire/First Order - they were never the bad guys - its the capitalists on Canto Bight who are the root of all evil.

In retrospect the title of the movie was a clear indication of intent - 'The Last Jedi' meaning that the concept is dead. A bit like expecting the James Bond franchise to survive and thrive beyond a movie entitled 'The Last Secret Agent' whereby MI6 is dismantled and its role is taken on by a bunch of plucky, diverse students on a work exchange with the civil service.

[p1stonhead]

r11co said:

p1stonhead said:

The Force Awakens set up a load of stuff which just got disgarded. It wasnt just in people's heads.

The entire Star Wars back catalogue set up a load of stuff that just got disregarded.

The Force - forget discipline and training, anyone can use it if they want it

The Empire/First Order - they were never the bad guys - its the capitalists on Canto Bight who are the root of all evil.

In retrospect the title of the movie was a clear indication of intent - 'The Last Jedi' meaning that the concept is dead. A bit like expecting the James Bond franchise to survive and thrive beyond a movie entitled 'The Last Secret Agent' whereby MI6 is dismantled and its role is taken on by a bunch of plucky, diverse students on a work exchange with the civil service.

Yeah this happens a lot, but to the film directly in front of it in a standalone trilogy?

[Rumblestripe]

p1stonhead said:

This isnt quite true.

The Force Awakens set up a load of stuff which just got disgarded. It wasnt just in people's heads.

Reys Parents - nobody dont worry about it
Lightsaber being given to Luke - supposed to be a big moment, tossed aside as a joke
Luke not wanting to be found and being all pissy - why leave a map so people could find him?
Who was snoke? - who cares

I cant disagree with anything this guy says on the matter;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ8ir66M5XU

Reys Parents - nobody dont worry about it - not the story that they had already imagined
Lightsaber being given to Luke - supposed to be a big moment, tossed aside as a joke - not the story that they had already imagined
Luke not wanting to be found and being all pissy - why leave a map so people could find him? - not the story that they had already imagined
Who was snoke? - who cares - not the story that they had already imagined

And then you posted a You Tube link to someone who agrees with you...

[p1stonhead]

Rumblestripe said:

p1stonhead said:

This isnt quite true.

The Force Awakens set up a load of stuff which just got disgarded. It wasnt just in people's heads.

Reys Parents - nobody dont worry about it
Lightsaber being given to Luke - supposed to be a big moment, tossed aside as a joke
Luke not wanting to be found and being all pissy - why leave a map so people could find him?
Who was snoke? - who cares

I cant disagree with anything this guy says on the matter;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ8ir66M5XU

Reys Parents - nobody dont worry about it - not the story that they had already imagined
Lightsaber being given to Luke - supposed to be a big moment, tossed aside as a joke - not the story that they had already imagined
Luke not wanting to be found and being all pissy - why leave a map so people could find him? - not the story that they had already imagined
Who was snoke? - who cares - not the story that they had already imagined

And then you posted a You Tube link to someone who agrees with you...

bks. The film set up those questions directly. This is how storytelling works. Someone following along with set up story lines then being dissapointed when none get resolved is not 'imagining' things. A trilogy should have a coherent narrative. End of.

[r11co]

Rumblestripe said:

Reys Parents - nobody dont worry about it - not the story that they had already imagined
Lightsaber being given to Luke - supposed to be a big moment, tossed aside as a joke - not the story that they had already imagined
Luke not wanting to be found and being all pissy - why leave a map so people could find him? - not the story that they had already imagined
Who was snoke? - who cares - not the story that they had already imagined

We've treaded this ground already. There has to be a certain suspension of disbelief for any movie to work, but that is broken when the viewer is toyed with for the sake of it.

If the majority had sensed that major plot points in the preceding film had a certain significance (regardless of what they imagined them to be) there is an important difference between baiting them and switching them to an unexpected and more interesting conclusion or telling them they were wrong and actually what they though meant something meant nothing.

Trolling the audience is the best description I have heard for what Rian Johnson thought passes as clever film-making.

Edited by r11co on Tuesday 13th March 10:59

[Guvernator]

r11co said:

We've treaded this ground already. There has to be a certain suspension of disbelief for any movie to work, but that is broken when the viewer is toyed with for the sake of it.

If the majority had sensed that major plot points in the preceding film had a certain significance (regardless of what they imagined them to be) there is an important difference between baiting them and switching them to an unexpected and more interesting conclusion or telling them they were wrong and actually what they though meant something meant nothing.

Trolling the audience is the best description I have heard for what Rian Johnson though passes as clever film-making.

This is the crux of the matter for me, switch it up if it makes it more interesting but the "answers" and I use that term very loosely as they effectively answered nothing, just weren't interesting at all and completely unsatisfactory.

If you don't understand that "forget about all that stuff that we've spend decades building up, it's not really important" would be a hugely unsatisfactory answer for a vast majority of Star Wars fans, then you don't understand Star Wars at all and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the franchise.

Were there no old school Star Wars fans involved in the making of this film? What about all the very clever audience analysis that they must have carried out on such a big film? Surely at some point, someone, somewhere would have highlighted that perhaps poo-pooing decades of history might not be such a great idea. I'm pretty sure this is what Mark Hamill was trying to do at one point with stories abounding that he wasn't happy with the direction, probably right before he got told to shut the hell up.

[Halb]

Guvernator said:

If you don't understand that "forget about all that stuff that we've spend decades building up, it's not really important" would be a hugely unsatisfactory answer for a vast majority of Star Wars fans, then you don't understand Star Wars at all and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the franchise.

Were there no old school Star Wars fans involved in the making of this film? What about all the very clever audience analysis that they must have carried out on such a big film? Surely at some point, someone, somewhere would have highlighted that perhaps poo-pooing decades of history might not be such a great idea. I'm pretty sure this is what Mark Hamill was trying to do at one point with stories abounding that he wasn't happy with the direction, probably right before he got told to shut the hell up.

You'd think, wouldn't ya? They really screwed the pooch on this. I can only guess at hubris, but it's not confined to Kennedy, look at almost everything Sony does, look at X-Men franchise

[p1stonhead]

Halb said:

Guvernator said:

If you don't understand that "forget about all that stuff that we've spend decades building up, it's not really important" would be a hugely unsatisfactory answer for a vast majority of Star Wars fans, then you don't understand Star Wars at all and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the franchise.

Were there no old school Star Wars fans involved in the making of this film? What about all the very clever audience analysis that they must have carried out on such a big film? Surely at some point, someone, somewhere would have highlighted that perhaps poo-pooing decades of history might not be such a great idea. I'm pretty sure this is what Mark Hamill was trying to do at one point with stories abounding that he wasn't happy with the direction, probably right before he got told to shut the hell up.

You'd think, wouldn't ya? They really screwed the pooch on this. I can only guess at hubris, but it's not confined to Kennedy, look at almost everything Sony does, look at X-Men franchise

Also, they either carry on with this direction they know hasn’t been very popular with a percentage of audiences (excluding critics) or the turn the whole thing round AGAIN and try to go out with more of a storyline which TFA set up! This is possible now Abrams is directing again.

This whole trilogy cannot therefore avoid being a total mess when see as a whole.

[r11co]

Guvernator said:

If you don't understand that "forget about all that stuff that we've spend decades building up, it's not really important" would be a hugely unsatisfactory answer for a vast majority of Star Wars fans, then you don't understand Star Wars at all and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the franchise.

It is a hugely unsatisfactory answer for anyone with an imagination.

You either confirm or surprise your audience - you don't piss on them by disingenuously saying "you led yourself up that path - nothing to do with us at all if you now feel disappointed".

Ironically some fansites are now telling us that the Canto Bight thing was the most pivotal part of the movie in terms of set-up, but the precedent has been set - why read anything into the scene because the one thing TLJ taught us is not to expect any meaningful outcome from any plot-build up in the preceding movie.

p1stonhead said:

This whole trilogy cannot therefore avoid being a total mess when seen as a whole.

Exactly. Johnson didn't just piss on the audience, he's shat on the whole thing and anyone coming next is pretty-much damned whatever they do.

Edited by r11co on Tuesday 13th March 11:43

[Mr. White]

Halb said:

When one looks at the series as a whole, it stands out, the next biggest difference is 14%, which both Return of the Jedi and Revenge of the Sith are at.
TLJ was at over 90% at one point too, but I see it's dropped to 90%, making the difference 42%

I've been thinking about critics generally and how very few of them seem to understand the film-going public these days. E.g. I used to listen to the Mayo & Kermode podcast religiously but now I turn off after the pre-show rambling and top 10 rundown.

I wonder whether it's because critics are so immersed in films and Hollywood, they're succumbing to modern Hollywood values in which a film can only be good if it ticks set diversity/moral/message boxes and the actual film bit is less significant?

This might also explain why recent years' Oscar winners tend to be dull "worthy" films with "a good message" rather than anything actually interesting?

But then the alternative seems to be comic book characters hitting each other to boom-boom-boom soundtracks.

Where's the next Scorcese?

[r11co]

Mr. White said:

I wonder whether it's because critics are so immersed in films and Hollywood, they're succumbing to modern Hollywood values in which a film can only be good if it ticks set diversity/moral/message boxes and the actual film bit is less significant?

They aren't Hollywood values though. Hollywood values the bottom line and nothing else. The diversity/morals thing is being done because they believe it will widen the demographic for their output and increase audience take.

[Guvernator]

r11co said:

They aren't Hollywood values though. Hollywood values the bottom line and nothing else. The diversity/morals thing is being done because they believe it will widen the demographic for their output and increase audience take.

Yep some clever marketing people would have crunched some numbers and decided that adding in virtue signalling, positive discrimination etc would increase their revenue in the emerging markers by 12.33%.

The problem is Hollywood doesn't really know how to do subtle so these "right on" messages end up sticking out like a sore thumb and so rather than sitting their thinking wow that was really clever you end up thinking, oh look they've stuck a scene in with the demographically on point, asian lesbian talking about saving the space whales from the evil rich people.

[troc]

I just don’t get the hate. I really don’t. I’m a massive Star Wars fan. I have practically every story book (canon and otherwise) and comité book written. Ive played every video game and all the RPG and table-top games going and I’ve seen all the movies in all the formats and with all the changes (I’m a proud owner of the despecialised edition of the original) and I really enjoyed the last Jedi. I think the issue simply stems from the internet decidinng what the film should be and say and then getting collectively irritated when it wasn’t what thy had decided it should be.

[ukaskew]

Mr. White said:

This might also explain why recent years' Oscar winners tend to be dull "worthy" films with "a good message" rather than anything actually interesting?

Hmmm, Shape of Water winning over, say, The Post would surely knock that theory on the head? I know it wasn't everyone's cup of tea but it certainly wasn't the safe choice.

Last week I watched Red Sparrow, which for a mainstream Hollywood movie was remarkably nasty. I wasn't a fan at all, but was very impressed that it made it through the studio system intact.

I only have access to a 7 screen multiplex so miss pretty much every small/independent release (and there are loads), but even so I feel things are pretty varied. If I remove superhero/franchise/sequel films I've still seen 12 movies in the cinema so far this year.

[glazbagun]

troc said:

I just don’t get the hate. I really don’t. I’m a massive Star Wars fan. I have practically every story book (canon and otherwise) and comité book written. Ive played every video game and all the RPG and table-top games going and I’ve seen all the movies in all the formats and with all the changes (I’m a proud owner of the despecialised edition of the original) and I really enjoyed the last Jedi. I think the issue simply stems from the internet decidinng what the film should be and say and then getting collectively irritated when it wasn’t what thy had decided it should be.

So when you were watching the How it Should Have Ended posted above you didn't have exactly the same thoughts about Finn not being allowed to destroy the ram?

Nor did you raise an eyebrow at a Star Destroyer being taken out by a single x-wing and some slow bombers? And the back story to two of the most intriguing characters not really going anywhere? Or the whole casino sub-plot being really stupid? Or the whole slow motion highway chase being a bit WTF? Or introducing the new pink haired admiral, filling out her character and then dumping her? Or the woeful fight with Phasma?

What were you enjoying that outweighed that?

I think it was a really, really beautiful looking movie with some beautiful shots. But as a film it was barely twice as good as Prometheus.

[p1stonhead]

glazbagun said:

troc said:

I just don’t get the hate. I really don’t. I’m a massive Star Wars fan. I have practically every story book (canon and otherwise) and comité book written. Ive played every video game and all the RPG and table-top games going and I’ve seen all the movies in all the formats and with all the changes (I’m a proud owner of the despecialised edition of the original) and I really enjoyed the last Jedi. I think the issue simply stems from the internet decidinng what the film should be and say and then getting collectively irritated when it wasn’t what thy had decided it should be.

So when you were watching the How it Should Have Ended posted above you didn't have exactly the same thoughts about Finn not being allowed to destroy the ram?

Nor did you raise an eyebrow at a Star Destroyer being taken out by a single x-wing and some slow bombers? And the back story to two of the most intriguing characters not really going anywhere? Or the whole casino sub-plot being really stupid? Or the whole slow motion highway chase being a bit WTF? Or introducing the new pink haired admiral, filling out her character and then dumping her? Or the woeful fight with Phasma?

What were you enjoying that outweighed that?

I think it was a really, really beautiful looking movie with some beautiful shots. But as a film it was barely twice as good as Prometheus.

I like this grading system

BUT - I will put it out there that as an expectation based on set up vs reality - promethus was better.