Why is this Vauxhall Agila so unstable?
Discussion
Morning,
I've recently been driving my wife's Vauxhall Agila, and I've noted some interesting things about it's handling. I've no plans on driving it in the long term because I'm going to buy myself another car once the weather gets a bit iffy for motorbiking.
Now, I know it's about the least PH car ever - I mostly hate it. When she bought it, she was doing 90 miles a day to get to work and back and wanted a car that was newish and cheap to run (my suggestions of a Jaguar XJ didn't go down well). She ended up buying the Vauxhall despite me offering other suggestions. Irritatingly, it's been fautlessly reliable and cheap to run so she still has it a couple of years later, despite having changed jobs and now having a 10 mile round trip to work and back.
One thing I have noticed though, is that it's unsettled easily with aquaplaning, tramlining and under heavy braking. It handles relatively well for such a tall, blobby looking car, which is to say that it'll corner faster than it looks like it should be able to. Certainly, it feels more agile than it has a right to. She's always had it fitted with Continental ContiSportContact tyres, I think it came fitted with a set of 2's and now has 3's on them. I take care of the car, making sure the tyre pressures are regularly checked and kept right (though unlike say, my Subaru Impreza, it never needs much, if any air fed in to keep them right). The set of tyres on the car at the moment are maybe 1500 miles old and have loads of tread on them.
The first curious instance was heading along a dual carriageway at night. My usual route home from work goes along an unlit carriageway through open country, so wildlife is occasionally seen out there. Driving home from work at around midnight, in the darkness, I was the only one out on the road at the time. As I was trundling along at about 70mph, on a very gentle uphill gradient, a fox emerged from the roadside trying to dart for the central reservation. Rather than plough through it, I stood on the brakes and scrubbed off maybe 40mph to give it time to cross. Instead of drawing up sharply in a straight line, the car gave the distinct feel of roll from left to right, more exaggerated in the body shell than the steering. It was like the car was rocking. Never felt it do that before, though I've never braked that sharply in it in the past. Usually, it draws up firmly and squarely. It's went through a recent MOT with no issues, brake pads are in good shape and no with no imbalance between brakes at the time. I'm not sure if the car is fitted with TCS or similar, there are no indications on the dashboard to say that it is, and if that was the car thinking I was going sideways and trying to draw itself into a straight line again. Could it have been the rears unloading so quickly the back end got a bit light?
Secondly, and what prompted me to write this thread, was driving it last night along the same road (coincidentally) in a heavy shower. As I was driving up another, steeper hill I was hitting streams of water rushing across the road. Now, I wasn't going particularly fast as the risk of aquaplaning in a dangerous fashion would have been too great to go much faster. Even at a 'safe' pace, I could feel the car getting tugged left and right by the streams of water on the road. The thing I can most liken it to is when you're in a low, light car like my old MX5 or MR2 Turbo, and you go through standing water on the side of the road, where it drags at the car and pulls at the steering wheel. I found this quite a surprising phenomenon in an otherwise staid family car like this. It genuinely felt quite unsettled by relatively innocuous amounts of water despite it's fresh tyres.
What is it that causes this feel? The car has relatively skinny tyres (these days, anyway). I think they are 195 width, with high sidewalls. It's tall (excessively so) and the suspension is pretty soft. The steering is light and offers very little feel or feedback. It also tramlines over some surfaces, particularly rutted tarmac and off-camber corners, where the feeling of tugging at the wheel is quite exaggerated over what you'd feel in other vehicles.
It's one of these:
Ps. You might have noticed, I'm not much taken with it. I do hope that she'll buy something better one day, though whilst the Agila continues being fault free (iffy handling aside) and cheap to run I doubt she will...!
I've recently been driving my wife's Vauxhall Agila, and I've noted some interesting things about it's handling. I've no plans on driving it in the long term because I'm going to buy myself another car once the weather gets a bit iffy for motorbiking.
Now, I know it's about the least PH car ever - I mostly hate it. When she bought it, she was doing 90 miles a day to get to work and back and wanted a car that was newish and cheap to run (my suggestions of a Jaguar XJ didn't go down well). She ended up buying the Vauxhall despite me offering other suggestions. Irritatingly, it's been fautlessly reliable and cheap to run so she still has it a couple of years later, despite having changed jobs and now having a 10 mile round trip to work and back.
One thing I have noticed though, is that it's unsettled easily with aquaplaning, tramlining and under heavy braking. It handles relatively well for such a tall, blobby looking car, which is to say that it'll corner faster than it looks like it should be able to. Certainly, it feels more agile than it has a right to. She's always had it fitted with Continental ContiSportContact tyres, I think it came fitted with a set of 2's and now has 3's on them. I take care of the car, making sure the tyre pressures are regularly checked and kept right (though unlike say, my Subaru Impreza, it never needs much, if any air fed in to keep them right). The set of tyres on the car at the moment are maybe 1500 miles old and have loads of tread on them.
The first curious instance was heading along a dual carriageway at night. My usual route home from work goes along an unlit carriageway through open country, so wildlife is occasionally seen out there. Driving home from work at around midnight, in the darkness, I was the only one out on the road at the time. As I was trundling along at about 70mph, on a very gentle uphill gradient, a fox emerged from the roadside trying to dart for the central reservation. Rather than plough through it, I stood on the brakes and scrubbed off maybe 40mph to give it time to cross. Instead of drawing up sharply in a straight line, the car gave the distinct feel of roll from left to right, more exaggerated in the body shell than the steering. It was like the car was rocking. Never felt it do that before, though I've never braked that sharply in it in the past. Usually, it draws up firmly and squarely. It's went through a recent MOT with no issues, brake pads are in good shape and no with no imbalance between brakes at the time. I'm not sure if the car is fitted with TCS or similar, there are no indications on the dashboard to say that it is, and if that was the car thinking I was going sideways and trying to draw itself into a straight line again. Could it have been the rears unloading so quickly the back end got a bit light?
Secondly, and what prompted me to write this thread, was driving it last night along the same road (coincidentally) in a heavy shower. As I was driving up another, steeper hill I was hitting streams of water rushing across the road. Now, I wasn't going particularly fast as the risk of aquaplaning in a dangerous fashion would have been too great to go much faster. Even at a 'safe' pace, I could feel the car getting tugged left and right by the streams of water on the road. The thing I can most liken it to is when you're in a low, light car like my old MX5 or MR2 Turbo, and you go through standing water on the side of the road, where it drags at the car and pulls at the steering wheel. I found this quite a surprising phenomenon in an otherwise staid family car like this. It genuinely felt quite unsettled by relatively innocuous amounts of water despite it's fresh tyres.
What is it that causes this feel? The car has relatively skinny tyres (these days, anyway). I think they are 195 width, with high sidewalls. It's tall (excessively so) and the suspension is pretty soft. The steering is light and offers very little feel or feedback. It also tramlines over some surfaces, particularly rutted tarmac and off-camber corners, where the feeling of tugging at the wheel is quite exaggerated over what you'd feel in other vehicles.
It's one of these:
Ps. You might have noticed, I'm not much taken with it. I do hope that she'll buy something better one day, though whilst the Agila continues being fault free (iffy handling aside) and cheap to run I doubt she will...!
Edited by Baryonyx on Monday 28th July 02:13
I'd say what you feel is a result of a short wheelbase, narrow track and tall body. Not driven one, but looking at the picture, it could be possible.
Possibly a milder version of what was experienced in Suzuki jeeps and A class Mercs some years ago, when you stand on the anchors, the back tries to climb over the front of the car in a straight line, and any steering applied will make it very unstable, possibly resulting an a corner wise roll. Not a configuration I would want to stress without a crash helmet, gloves and a roll cage personally. For Christ sake don't brake really hard and try to steer round something at the same time.
The water issue may just be that the drag of water on one side is accentuated by the fact that the tyres are narrower on this car, meaning that they actually penetrate the water deeper than on your other cars, causing more drag than wide lower profiles that skim across the top a bit more. The previously mentioned configuration potentially accentuates the feeling.
Or,I could be talking complete b
ks, as I said I have not driven one, but have driven cars that have a similar configuration and exhibit the same instabilities.
Possibly a milder version of what was experienced in Suzuki jeeps and A class Mercs some years ago, when you stand on the anchors, the back tries to climb over the front of the car in a straight line, and any steering applied will make it very unstable, possibly resulting an a corner wise roll. Not a configuration I would want to stress without a crash helmet, gloves and a roll cage personally. For Christ sake don't brake really hard and try to steer round something at the same time.
The water issue may just be that the drag of water on one side is accentuated by the fact that the tyres are narrower on this car, meaning that they actually penetrate the water deeper than on your other cars, causing more drag than wide lower profiles that skim across the top a bit more. The previously mentioned configuration potentially accentuates the feeling.
Or,I could be talking complete b
ks, as I said I have not driven one, but have driven cars that have a similar configuration and exhibit the same instabilities.The steering wheel sits straight, and the steering geometry feels spot on. I know what cars feel like when their geometry is way out of spec through driving work cars. Our fleet is so old, obsolete, abused and poorly maintained that they are in dreadful condition. Years of abuse, being bumped up kerbs, slammed over speed bumps and potholes means many can't be driven in a straight line without applying some steering to the left or the right. Similarly, a lot of them dive under braking so I know the Agila isn't suffering from these phenomena. It's only got 34,000 miles on it and everything has been kept right with it. It feels the same as the day it was bought.
I'm guessing the short wheel base, small tyres and tall roof are probably just a bad combination for vehicle stability. My 106 Rallye had the same width tyres but was pretty settled over similar conditions, my old A8 with 245's on it could have driven at 100mph over those water streams without breaking a sweat!
I hasten to add that you won't notice these characteristics in day to day driving, rather it's their appearance in specific conditions that has made me notice them. Indeed, everything else about the car is so boring and predictable.
Did I mention the rev hang on the throttle, urgh. Apparently another wondrous feature on newer cars to reduce emissions, the ECU suspends the throttle closing when lifting off or putting the clutch in at lower engine speeds. It feels ghastly and makes the car far less smooth to drive. Her indoors keeps talking about getting an Audi TT (she was gutted when I got rid of mine). I wish she'd just go and do it!
I'm guessing the short wheel base, small tyres and tall roof are probably just a bad combination for vehicle stability. My 106 Rallye had the same width tyres but was pretty settled over similar conditions, my old A8 with 245's on it could have driven at 100mph over those water streams without breaking a sweat!
I hasten to add that you won't notice these characteristics in day to day driving, rather it's their appearance in specific conditions that has made me notice them. Indeed, everything else about the car is so boring and predictable.
Did I mention the rev hang on the throttle, urgh. Apparently another wondrous feature on newer cars to reduce emissions, the ECU suspends the throttle closing when lifting off or putting the clutch in at lower engine speeds. It feels ghastly and makes the car far less smooth to drive. Her indoors keeps talking about getting an Audi TT (she was gutted when I got rid of mine). I wish she'd just go and do it!
It could just be inherently unstable due to the height/wheelbase/width etc and rather than add ESC *and* re-engineer the suspension settings but ruin the ride like Mercedes did with the W168 A-Class, General Motors decided to leave it unstable but with better ride quality and rely on the now mandatory ESC to keep you from flipping it?
You didn't want her to buy a Vauxhall and they do seem to be oddly half arsed and shoddy for a product from such a massive manufacturer. It sounds like it behaves exactly like you'd expect it to from looking at it!
You didn't want her to buy a Vauxhall and they do seem to be oddly half arsed and shoddy for a product from such a massive manufacturer. It sounds like it behaves exactly like you'd expect it to from looking at it!
dme123 said:
You didn't want her to buy a Vauxhall and they do seem to be oddly half arsed and shoddy for a product from such a massive manufacturer. It sounds like it behaves exactly like you'd expect it to from looking at it!
It's actually a Suzuki Splash underneath the badge. Engineered and built by Suzuki (in Hungary IIRC). There are a number of things I like about it, considered for the purpose of which it was bought. The interior is spacious, and makes use of that 'space from nowhere' trick that Honda made popular with the Jazz and then everyone else copied. The two floor boot is handy, it'll take a good amount of shopping but it's a bit of odd shape (tall and not deep, because the back seats are right up against the back window). My A8 was the choice of vehicle for IKEA trips when we moved house, even with the Agila's folding seats. It's also very frugal, which is obviously less of a concern now. Between my motorbike which does 120mpg and the Agila, we spend very little on petrol at the moment. I also like the gear lever, that pops out of a housing at the bottom of the dash. It's a short and clean shift.What I don't like is that it's ridiculously slow, but then it's a 1.2. The throttle is slow and electronically metered to an irritating extent. The brakes are grabby and lacking in feel. The rev hang is an irritating. The curved flanks give the odd impression of the car not being straight when you are looking in a wing mirror as you reverse, so you learn to compensate.
Had it been engineered by GM/Opel I'd not have been happy with her buying it, mainly because we have loads of Vauxhalls at work and they are dreadful. The newer generation of Vauxhalls are massively improved, but the cars that the Agila was sold against (ours is a '59 plate) were dreadfully unreliable.
Anyway, I'm hoping next year to push her towards a better car that will still fit our day to day needs. She should get the TT she's wanted for years! I'm going to get a Lexus LS400, a Jaguar XJ or similar later in the year so that'll take care of most 'big trips'.
The tyres being narrow should not be a problem. On my Daewoo Lanos with its 14" wheels and tiny profile (something like 165) it just scoots through standing water, no deflection. And thats with cheapo tyres on too. The Jag also just blasts through them with its super wide 20" tyres .
I was just thinking back to when I recall a car that I last had that problem where it pulled in the direction of the puddle and its probably way back to an old vauxhall cavalier, cant recall anything in the last 10 years having that problem.
I was just thinking back to when I recall a car that I last had that problem where it pulled in the direction of the puddle and its probably way back to an old vauxhall cavalier, cant recall anything in the last 10 years having that problem.
I think the issue is that it's just because the Agila is narrow and has a short wheelbase, but is tall, which means it has a higher centre of gravity compared to other cars.
This results in an inherently unstable feel.
It's often why you find that 4x4s and cars that are taller and have a higher centre of gravity tend to be wider than cars that sit lower down and have a low centre of gravity.
But I do wonder what the Panda would be like in those circumstances, just because it's similar in a sense, tall, yet narrow and short wheelbase with thin tyres.
This results in an inherently unstable feel.
It's often why you find that 4x4s and cars that are taller and have a higher centre of gravity tend to be wider than cars that sit lower down and have a low centre of gravity.
But I do wonder what the Panda would be like in those circumstances, just because it's similar in a sense, tall, yet narrow and short wheelbase with thin tyres.
About the braking thing, I had something similar happen in a rental Mazda 5. I was almost maxing the thing out on an practically empty ex-East-German motorway. I was doing almost 235km/h indicated (146mph) (the thing had what seemed like a big diesel engine and was surprisingly fast...) when I come upon a truck doing 90km/h with an old Mercedes following behind. I indicate left and prepare to overtake both vehicles when at the last possible moment, the Mercedes driver decides to overtake the truck without looking in the rear view mirror. Autobahn was empty for miles in front of the truck and behind me, so the idiot really did pick his time to overtake... Anyway, I jump on the brakes with a speed differential of close to 90mph to scrub off, thinking I'm going to rear end the car and at the same time, my car starts to swerve against the central barrier, which I try to correct and then continues to swerve left and right maybe 3-4 times until I slow down enough and get off the brakes. I manage to avoid the accident and I pass the driver of the Mercedes who is an elderly gentleman and has absolutely not noticed my presence until I get past him..
Anyway, I will never know if there was something wrong with the car's brakes, but I decided right there and then that I was NEVER going to drive another MPV in Germany because it seemed extremely unsafe. After that I drove many other rentals cars at max speed (including strong braking) and never again experienced something like that.
The other car which seemed quite unstable was a Fiat 500l, which seemed to have a mind of it's own as it was steering by itself. Probably the stability program interfering with my having fun on the motorway.
Anyway, I will never know if there was something wrong with the car's brakes, but I decided right there and then that I was NEVER going to drive another MPV in Germany because it seemed extremely unsafe. After that I drove many other rentals cars at max speed (including strong braking) and never again experienced something like that.
The other car which seemed quite unstable was a Fiat 500l, which seemed to have a mind of it's own as it was steering by itself. Probably the stability program interfering with my having fun on the motorway.
OH has the Suzuki Splash. 1 year old now with barely 4000 miles on the clock.
Under-steers like an oil tanker mostly. That's maybe an exaggeration but it is pretty crap.
Acceleration of a snail on roller skates with a top speed of a seagull in flight with a tailwind.
53 mpg is normal with low to mid 40's about town.
Lack of temperature gauge drives me nuts.
There's nothing wrong with the one you have they're just not very good although ideal for short shopping trips. If that's all it's used for it's decent value for money.
Under-steers like an oil tanker mostly. That's maybe an exaggeration but it is pretty crap.
Acceleration of a snail on roller skates with a top speed of a seagull in flight with a tailwind.
53 mpg is normal with low to mid 40's about town.
Lack of temperature gauge drives me nuts.
There's nothing wrong with the one you have they're just not very good although ideal for short shopping trips. If that's all it's used for it's decent value for money.
Think your self lucky you've got the new version, I'm looking after one of the wagon R early ones for my sister at the moment and its a hateful thing to drive, helped along by four of the cheapest tyres not a lot of money can buy.
Its quite nippy when you can actually get the power down,but has an appalling lack of traction in the dry never mind the wet.
As for handling terminal under steer doesn't even start to describe it.
I know Vauxhall's arent known for their handling but it makes my other half's Corsa D feel like a Elise!
As some one else said, meant to be driven to the shops once a week at 25 MPH and nothing more!
Its quite nippy when you can actually get the power down,but has an appalling lack of traction in the dry never mind the wet.
As for handling terminal under steer doesn't even start to describe it.
I know Vauxhall's arent known for their handling but it makes my other half's Corsa D feel like a Elise!
As some one else said, meant to be driven to the shops once a week at 25 MPH and nothing more!
Vauxhall and some of the Japanese/Korean manufactures have a nasty habit of putting loads of compliance into the steering system of their cars, in a misguided aim to make them less "sensitive" to clumsy Handwheel inputs. Whilst this does to some degree decouple vehicle lateral acceleration from handwheel rate, it also tends to introduce a massive phase lag into the control system. As a result i find it's very easy to overcorrect or similarly "get out of time" with what the car is actually doing, and that makes the car feel very nervous sometimes, especially as speed increases.......
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