Auto-box question.............

Auto-box question.............

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Discussion

GavinPearson

5,711 posts

185 months

Friday 28th January 2005
quotequote all
triple7 said:

GavinPearson said:

The later transmissions - the ZF 5HP24 and the Mercedes W5A580 are EXTREMELY durable



Interesting. What gearbox is on my 2002 4.0ltr XKR?

Thanx.

G


4.0 litre XKR uses the Mercedes W5A580 transmission.

GavinPearson

5,711 posts

185 months

Friday 28th January 2005
quotequote all
dave_3d said:

Thank-you very much Gavin for what must be the best answer I have had about the workings of this gearbox. Your insight about the workings of this box are exactly what I had expected to hear from my dealers but they just hum & haw.

I have worked for many years previously as a mechanic, and my Father and Brother are still in the trade (Garage in the family for over 75 years) and I have NEVER experienced this type of behaviour from a modern automatic - not even in other S-Types or BMWs with the same ZF box.

The main trouble is that my Jaguar dealer and Managers do not accept that there is a problem (I have had my car independently tested by the AA and other motoring organisations with written reports that DO find it) and Jaguar continue to maintain it is normal. The best Jaguar have come up with is "Well, we have tried all the updates and it is an adaptive gearbox you know".

I expect a Jaguar to glide to a halt - not jump/snatch/lurch as it comes to rest. My previous 2001 S-Type, with the older ford automatic didn't lurch.

I have become dis-illusioned and frustrated with Jaguar's whole "handling" of this issue over the last 2 years of constant complaining by myself (From 1 week after buying the car). I have put it in the hands of my lawyer (Many, many other mechanical issues/faults).

Again thank-you for your time and answer.

If only everyone in Jaguar was this way.

Dave

Sorry to hear about your plight. The dealer should know when they are out of their depth and to call for assistance, this is definitely one of those times. Personally I think it's a bit patronising - I mean if you got a lift in a mate's car you would probably notice the difference so why try to convince you that what isn't 100% is perfection? As regards the roll outs the Ford transmission was unusually good. The 5R55N was my baby when I was at Jaguar. Not the greatest at every other attribute, but very good at roll outs.

Unfortunately there is a very human factor in dealing with customer issues and it seems the people you have interacted with haven't delivered. Really all I can do is suggest you explain to your dealer principal that you really want your confidence restored in the product because it's at a low. Suggest to him that calling in Jaguar with a get it fixed or else attitude is appropriate. Suggest that he might like to loan you a similar model so you can assess if firm roll outs are a 'natural characteristic'.

I hope this is of use.

dave_3d

39 posts

165 months

Friday 28th January 2005
quotequote all

Thanks for your reply Gavin,

I have aready past the "or else" stage.

I am British and have bought my car new in Switzerland (2nd Jaguar bought new for cash), and have had many meetings with the Micael Tinguley, Service Manager for Switzerland.

I have written letters to the Jaguar MD in Switzerland and to the MD in Coventry. The letter to Coventry was counter-signed by 7 other owners from around the world that have this fault (8 VIN nos).

I have been in touch with Mr. Kuldip Sidhu the area Manager for Europe (Switzerland).

My Dealer, Emil Frey AG also said a ZF technician tested my car and found no fault.

Because none of these guys seemed to believe that I have a lurch I paid for an AA test of my car, and a TCS (Swiss AA) test of my car. I have 2 written documents proving this car has a lurch.

I have also have/had the following problems. Documented.

1. Lurch

Updated around 10 times now including the R513.

2. Air-con Lock-out problem.

I constantly informed them that my Air-con locked out, just blowing hot air and that the only way to get it to work was to pull in to the side of the road and re-start my car. Several times in heavy traffic on the Autobahn this was not possible so I had to drive with hot passengers and the windows open. The dealer said they would inform me when they had a fix. I HAD to take them the TSB that outlined a fix ! 1.5 years after buying the car.

Video here :

www.dmmultimedia.com/s_images/Air_con_lockout_1.AVI (2.9 MB)

3. I ordered my car with Sport Seats and was charged the extra for Sport Seats. I didn't notice at first but they supplied the car with Classic seats. First offer was "Oh, we'll give you a few hundred pounds back". Eventually without my authorisation they replaced the front and rear seats with second hand seats !

4. The automatic Xenon leveller was occasionally pointing a Xenon too high - blinding oncoming traffic and lighting up road signs for miles on dip. Again, the only way to rectify this was to pull in to the side of the road and switch the car on and off. They didn't believe me until one day it happened, I drove 40 miles to Emil Frey and left the car running. Eventually replaced after 1.5 years

5. My front heated windscreen had a large 6 inch band that did not work at all, directly in front of the driver. New windscreen fitted.

6. I have had many times a terrible squeaking comimg from the steering column. I had to find a TSB that outlines this problem. After changing the fluid it has returned many times.

www.dmmultimedia.com/s_images/squeaking_wheel.AVI (1.5 MB)

Also a terrible creaking/cronking from the front brakes - again after changing the pads "they all do that". Still there:

www.dmmultimedia.com/s_images/creaking_2.AVI (2.7 MB)

7. The AA technician found the boot full of water.

www.dmmultimedia.com/belgium/water_in_boot.jpg 94 Kb

8. Possibly the worst - upon driving to the UK I noticed a metal-on-metal sound whne braking. It turned out that one of the rear brake calipers was siezing on and had burned the pads to the bare metal. This was at 12k miles. Several trips to a local dealer were required to fix this - going through 3 sets of brake pads and then fitting a new caliper. I believe there is a recall/TSB on this issue but I have heard NOTHING from Jaguar. I still have a heat damaged rear disc

www.dmmultimedia.com/belgium/burned_out_brakes.jpg

www.dmmultimedia.com/s_images/burned_out_brakes.AVI (1 MB)

www.dmmultimedia.com/belgium/pads_to_the_metal_12kmiles.jpg

9. I have never been happy with the tracking and now need 4 new tyres at 16k miles. The tracking was adjusted by my dealer 1.5 years ago.

10. I holed the radiator while in the UK and paid for my local dealer to replace the radiator (Never out of the place when I was on holiday). I then had an overheating problem when driving back to CH, braking down in Belgium. I called the Jaguar Assist line who organised me to get a taxi to Brussells (60miles) and hire car home (takes a day travel). Next day they informed me my car was repaired and I had to go collect it, and return the hire car immediately !

So I had to organise a day off my work to fly back and drive my car back, while being charged for an extra few days on the hire car !

www.dmmultimedia.com/belgium/familiar.jpg

11. The Sat Nav has always been very inaccurate and occasionaly locked out - or given me a black screen.

www.dmmultimedia.com/s_images/sat_nav_girvan.jpg

www.dmmultimedia.com/s_images/broken_aircon%20copy.jpg


I have had my lawyer involved since last July and to date ALL Emil Frey/Jaguar have offered was :

Buying my car back at 5k less than bottom book and asking full price for a new S-Type or fixing a few problems. This offer was sent out on the 24th Dec 2004 with 9 days to reply ! I was on holiday when it arrived. I returned too late to take this "offer".

You can see why I have had enough. This is a bloody joke as cutomer service is concerned.

And a word to anyone thinking of buying a Jaguar in Switzerland - DON'T DO IT.

If you want to come out yourself and check my Lurch I would welcome it !!!!

Dave

triple7

Original Poster:

3,882 posts

171 months

Friday 28th January 2005
quotequote all
I feel so bad about the problems you are having with your car. I think you can safely say, not to go back to that terrible Dealership in CH. Name and shame them! All of the problems on your car can be sorted by replacing them, so what is Jags problem?

My thoughts are, go get a deal on a new Jag, you can easily strike a bargin this time of year and get a discounted new or nearly new. I am not saying give up on your quest, but don't use up all your time with something which can be solved by a few quid and a car change? Lifes too short.

Good luck, hopefully someone in Jag reads this and tries to right the wrongs.

G

GavinPearson

5,711 posts

185 months

Friday 28th January 2005
quotequote all
I once bought a car that had a comparable number of problems to Dave's, fortunately it wasn't a Jag or Ford group product, however I didn't take the weak excuses my dealer offered me and neither should Dave.

I threatened legal action against the dealer and got the manufacturer involved. I wanted the car bought back (without a loss to me). I also gave Autocar a call and invited them to write an article about inept service departments. Between the ogarage and manufacturer they said they couldn't see why it wasn't fixed and offered to fix the car once and for all. I did make the comment to the MD that I thought this highly unlikely but I said that I would accept that, provided that they loaned me transport for the period and that they put in writing that if they failed to fix any single fault then I would get a brand new car.

On delivering the vehicle I pointed out the faults and had the service statement written that each fault was demonstrated to the service manager. I told them to keep the car for literally as long as they wanted.

Needless to say they failed, it went in again, they failed, and I got a call two days later asking what colour I wanted my car to be.

You might be able to get the vehicle fixed at Browns Lane Service Dept, if they can't fix it then nobody can.

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dave_3d

39 posts

165 months

Monday 31st January 2005
quotequote all

Thanks for your replies, guys.

I have done everything you suggest.

I am at a total loss as to why Jaguar and Emil-frey are behaving like this. That is why I have a lawyer now adn I ma taking them to court.

I just got in touch with some of the other 7 S-Type owners who wrote with me last year to the Jaguar MD to complain about this lurching and 2 of them have also resorted to successful legal action, the remainder are on lease and will be leaving soon.

It'll soon be 3 out of 8 resorting to legal action. And 100% loss of repeat custom.

And people wonder why Jaguar is losing money ...

Dave

triple7

Original Poster:

3,882 posts

171 months

Tuesday 1st February 2005
quotequote all
Please let us know when you have it fully resolved.

Whats it going to be a BMW next?

G

AlexRWD

1,254 posts

171 months

Tuesday 1st February 2005
quotequote all
triple7 said:

If I continually slip in and out of gear, does this screw anything up?


To return to Gareth's original question, I think it depends entirely on what type of gear you are slipping into, beware anything with leather and chains which could most definitely screw something up!

(apologies, just felt this thread needed some humour)

ALi_D

1,110 posts

218 months

Friday 4th February 2005
quotequote all
dave_3d said:


I just got in touch with some of the other 7 S-Type owners who wrote with me last year to the Jaguar MD to complain about this lurching and 2 of them have also resorted to successful legal action, the remainder are on lease and will be leaving soon.

It'll soon be 3 out of 8 resorting to legal action. And 100% loss of repeat custom.

And people wonder why Jaguar is losing money ...

Dave


I have a 2002 4.2 as well - it has a lurch like this when it slows down too. I initially thought that it was just my driving style as its a number of years since I've driven an auto. I'll have a word with Jag and see if I can get anywhere - if I do I'll get back to you.

(It must be said that everything else on the car is perfect - my only problem to date was a slight rattle but on checking this was due to a pen I'd left in the drivers door pocket - d'oh!!. Glad I didn't go to the dealers with that!!)

dave_3d

39 posts

165 months

Saturday 5th February 2005
quotequote all

Alan,

I'd very much like to hear what Jaguar tells you.

Thanks,

Dave

sootyandsweep

2 posts

164 months

Monday 7th February 2005
quotequote all
Hi everyone

A slightly different question, but this is my first post on this forum so bear with me. I have a 99 3.0SE S-Type Auto which will not go into top gear. Does anyone have an idea why this might be? The car has only done 70k....

I have a feeling my bank balance is about to take a hammering

GavinPearson

5,711 posts

185 months

Tuesday 8th February 2005
quotequote all
If it will not go into 5th gear then it will not go into second.

The issue is the overdrive gearset which sits just behind the pump. I say second gear may be an issue, because second is first with overdrive. As the transmission does a 1-3-4-5 shift in light throttle you should see what happens under full throttle.

As it appears that the gearset assembly is locked up I would suspect that there is an electro-hydraulic malfunction in opening the clutch within the overdrive and applying the band.

This is a dealer job. They need the latest edition of JTIS which has the correct diagnostic routines. This is absolutely crucial because early versions in simple terms asked the dealer to check the oil level, and iof the transmission didn't work to replace it. The final JTIS had routines to check solenoid and hydraulic function. As there is no hydraulic fluid going to the relevent circuit the issue would probably either an electrical issue or a hydraulic issue. The pinpoint tests will determine route cause. In many cases the solenoid body (adjacent to the valve body) gets debris caught inside the exhaust port of the valve and it goes inside. It cannot function correctly with dirt present and so function is lost.

If there is dirt inside the valve body (main control) a similar issue may occur. That may simply require washing out or if scuffing is present a new main control should be fitted.

Of course there is no sure fire way of determining if there isn't an issue with the overdrive clutches - but I would doubt it - and there is no sure fire way of determining if replacing electrohydraulic components is cheaper than a remanufactured assembly. It may not be.

If you do fit a remanufactured transmission the dealer MUST reflash the PTEC module with the correct software. All remanufactured transmissions that Jaguar sell for the 99 to 02 S-Type are representative of the final version fitted to the car. So they are the quietest and smoothest versions.

triple7

Original Poster:

3,882 posts

171 months

Tuesday 8th February 2005
quotequote all
Gavin change your sig to 'Gearbox-man'!

What great info.

G

sootyandsweep

2 posts

164 months

Tuesday 8th February 2005
quotequote all
thanks very much Gavin, you obviously know your stuff. I will contact the dealer to see if they have the equipment you mention, and hopefully they can sort it. Fingers crossed....

Ill let you know how I get on

dave_3d

39 posts

165 months

Wednesday 16th February 2005
quotequote all
RE: The Lurch.

Just heard this :

"For those suffering from the dreaded Lurch there is a new technical bulletin (Feb. '05) that fixes the problem by reprogramming the engine (ecm) and the transmission (tcm).

Interesting note: Normal mode (not sports mode) must be used for 200 miles after reprogramming rather than 50 miles as with past transmission only reprogramming."

I wonder if this will work !?!

Too late for me - I'm off to court. Jaguar have been pissing me around for over 2 years.

Dave

triple7

Original Poster:

3,882 posts

171 months

Wednesday 16th February 2005
quotequote all
Go get 'em Dave. Keep us posted.

G

dave_3d

39 posts

165 months

Saturday 19th February 2005
quotequote all

Jaguar, the Service Manager for Switzerland and my Dealer vehemently DENIED even the existence of this Lurch when I have CONSISTENTLY and REPEATEDLY told them for 2.5 years this exists (even writing to the Jaguar MD in the UK with 7 other owners with this problem)? I have had my car tested independently by the AA in the UK and the TCS in Switzerland and they confirmed my lurch - Jaguar have denied it.

It is simple : somebody, somewhere in the Jaguar chain has been blatantly LYING. And I have been left with an expensive car that Lurches EVERY trip.


And now this surfaces, confirming the Lurch and the "drifting" of the adaptive function :



TSB : Harsh Transmission Shifts No.S307-17

Vin : M45255-2.5L M96288, 3.0L M96322, 4.2 N/A M96316

This Technical Bulletin has been issued to address customer concern of harsh transmission shifts, particularly 3 - 2, 2 -1 roll out and 1-2 up-shifts.

: The adaptive shift strategy drifting over-time causing higher than normal clutch pressures.

: The customer must be advised to use normal mode not sports mode) for 200 miles (321km) and to try to void full throttle/kick down over this period.

: To eliminate the issues outlined in the summary the transmission adaptions must be cleared and the Transmission Control Module (TCM) and the Engine Control Module (ECM) should be re-configured using the Worldwide Diagnostic System (WDS) with software release JTP 759/35 or later. Should a customer express concern, follow the Service Instruction outlined below.

1 . Position WDS alongside vehicle, switch Portable Test Unit (PTU) 'ON' and allow software to load.
2 . Ensure the ignition is switched 'OFF', hand brake is 'ON' and the transmission selector lever is in park.
3 . Connect PTU to vehicle using diagnostic cable. : Ensure WDS is loaded with software release JTP 759/35 or later.


4 . Enter VIN and check the TCM and ECM for fault codes, any associated repairs are to be carried out as a separate Warranty Claim.
5 . Navigate to configuration main menu.
: It is imperative operations 6, 7 and 8 must be performed in that exact order.

6 . From the vehicle configuration main menu, navigate to and run 'TCM adaptations clear' application.
7 . Select and run 're-configure existing ECM' application.
8 . Select and run 're-configure existing TCM' application using the 'Coded Access' route.
9 . After the re-configuration of the ECM and TCM is complete, switch 'OFF' PTU, disconnect from vehicle and return WDS to original location.

Carry out the adaption drive cycle road test:

10 . Drive the vehicle for ten miles in an urban environment to provoke the transmission to carry out upshifts and downshifts. Use light throttle only and do not exceed 2500 rpm. At one point in the drive cycle, when the traffic conditions allow, accelerate gently to 60mph (95 km/h) then allow the vehicle to coast down to 25 mph (40 km/h). : This process must be carried out in normal mode (not sports mode). The transmission fluid temperature must be above 60 deg C (140 deg f) (vehicle at normal operating temperature will ensure transmission fluid temperature is above 60 deg C (140 deg f)).


triple7

Original Poster:

3,882 posts

171 months

Sunday 20th February 2005
quotequote all
So this is now poof the condition exists, so Jag must have been calling you to rectify your problems, right?!!

G

dave_3d

39 posts

165 months

Sunday 20th February 2005
quotequote all

I'm still waiting ......

It was the same with my AirCon lock-out problem that I had for 1.5 years. I had to seek for solutions, printout the TSB and take it in to them even though I REPEATEDLY told them to let me know when a solution was available.

I still remember the aftersales manager, Mr Valko's response last year to my continued complaining about the Gearbox when I stated that I know many people on the internet with this problem.

In an offhand tone : "Perhaps the people on the internet can fix it for you"

I kid you not.

Good thing for him I was on the phone at the time. I was livid. You don't expect or accept cheek from an aftersales manager !!!???

TSB handed to my lawyer.

I have a list of TSBs regarding "harsh transmission chages" and now one admitting "drifting", as well as my AA and TCS report. I have been videoing and photographing everything for the last 2 years (see the other post about the faulty Xenon light levellers).

And the Geneva motor show is coming. I will be going. I'll make Foghorn Leghorn look retiring ..... and visiting Jaguar.

Dave

triple7

Original Poster:

3,882 posts

171 months

Sunday 20th February 2005
quotequote all
GO GET 'EM!!!

I would settle for a brand new replacement S-Type R and a relocation of your job to somewhere as far from Switzerland as you can get!!

G