Wake up students. The free stuff gig may cost you.
Discussion
Occurred to me that my firm has given on average five free days a year to Universities across this country over last decade. Free 3D scanning, talks, advice, CAD design, 3D printed parts, help etc and so on. Often had to travel hundreds of miles unpaid, even for expenses like fuel. Was part of the business plan to be 10% approx philanthropic. This mostly went to trying to help new talent.
Also occurred to me that I have only once received a thank you letter, phone call or email from a student or lecturer. Well no more. The ungrateful *(insert rude word)* can find some other mug to help them. Have emailed a University that I am currently doing free work for to say project terminated unless they want to pay a commercial rate.
Now have five free days a year to put my feet up or more than likely do some extra paid work.
Hope this gives a tiny sample of the student population a wake up call from the grafters who they want to extract money from. Manners and an appreciation of a person giving up their own time to help the future of the nation should at least warrant a card in the post to say ta.
Also occurred to me that I have only once received a thank you letter, phone call or email from a student or lecturer. Well no more. The ungrateful *(insert rude word)* can find some other mug to help them. Have emailed a University that I am currently doing free work for to say project terminated unless they want to pay a commercial rate.
Now have five free days a year to put my feet up or more than likely do some extra paid work.
Hope this gives a tiny sample of the student population a wake up call from the grafters who they want to extract money from. Manners and an appreciation of a person giving up their own time to help the future of the nation should at least warrant a card in the post to say ta.
Edited by SDB660 on Monday 12th June 00:15
I understand your frustration. Unfortunately, I imagine some people will interpret the support your provide as self promotion, advertising or even a form of recruitment for personal gain.
All I can say is sometimes it takes a years for people to reflect on the support and opportunities they were given that led to their success.
All I can say is sometimes it takes a years for people to reflect on the support and opportunities they were given that led to their success.
I always used to write thank you letters when I was a student, quite a few to Army Regiments I'd visited particularly when I was looking at joining. It's good manners pure and simple if someone goes out of their way to do something decent for you. It's also forward thinking as you never know when you may need that connection later on in life. A few years ago I bumped into a guy who I'd done some work experience for as a 16 year old and to whom I'd written a decent thank you letter. On recognising me he shook my hand and bought me a pint, definitely paid off on that occasion 
I can imagine in your situation that it grinds a little not getting so much as a thank you. I assume you'll still be receptive if any students show initiative and contact you off their own back?
I can imagine in your situation that it grinds a little not getting so much as a thank you. I assume you'll still be receptive if any students show initiative and contact you off their own back?
"I assume you'll still be receptive if any students show initiative and contact you off their own back?"
In all honesty no. Every contact starts well, but ends up with me carrying these people. Typical example. Was asked to scan a racing car. Undertook an almost 300 mile round trip to do. No payment of any kind asked for or offered. Scanned car and then was told the students did not know how to use program to post process. In end did myself for them over a weekend. Not even a thank you. Did get a plug in a magazine.Taught Solidworks paid and as a favour at Universities. The amount of times you would be presented with a 3D CAD model from the lecturer (not me) or student with a blank look and expectation you would solve it for them to put in the course work was untold.
Looking back on this, and it has been a decade or fifty plus working days, I cannot see that it was a worthwhile use of time. Do not know what answer is, but as a guess and being old fashioned, it may well come down to the indefinable things being motivation and keenness to learn. Lecturers are as bad as students.
In all honesty no. Every contact starts well, but ends up with me carrying these people. Typical example. Was asked to scan a racing car. Undertook an almost 300 mile round trip to do. No payment of any kind asked for or offered. Scanned car and then was told the students did not know how to use program to post process. In end did myself for them over a weekend. Not even a thank you. Did get a plug in a magazine.Taught Solidworks paid and as a favour at Universities. The amount of times you would be presented with a 3D CAD model from the lecturer (not me) or student with a blank look and expectation you would solve it for them to put in the course work was untold.
Looking back on this, and it has been a decade or fifty plus working days, I cannot see that it was a worthwhile use of time. Do not know what answer is, but as a guess and being old fashioned, it may well come down to the indefinable things being motivation and keenness to learn. Lecturers are as bad as students.
To be fair, it is not just the students.
among other things, I am a director of a small book publishers and, in my experience, the academics are Class 1 liggers, even at the better universities. Of course, I know academics who are sane and sensible people.
For good commercial reasons, unrelated to the behaviour of dons (except for their inability to write in plain English), we tend now to avoid publishing academic texts unless they can cross over into the mainstream.
Many I come across get offended simply by a refusal to publish a manuscript which I know and they know will not break even, let alone make money.
The ones we do take on seem perplexed by the notion that we are taking the risk in publishing a book and that the level of advance should reflect that fact. Many seem indifferent to the fact that an advance needs to be earned out by royalties because they do not expect to get to that point. In other words, they want an advance they have no expectation of paying back. More free money?
At book launches, they expect their mates/spouses to be taken for dinner and are offended when I explain that the £50 extra I'd have to find to feed this non-contributing mate would, on my margins, require an uplift of over 10% in their projected sales simply to cover the cost, they simply cannot see why that would be relevant.
There seems to be a general assumption that we should be paying them for the honour and prestige of being allowed to risk our limited resources on publishing them. There are, of course, occasions when we publish a marginal book, because we think it should be out there rather than because we can see a profit but that is our privilege to exercise and decision to make.
It is, I suppose to be expected, given that they operate in a culture of "free stuff". There are, of course, those who are decent and honourable and do think and worry about these things.
among other things, I am a director of a small book publishers and, in my experience, the academics are Class 1 liggers, even at the better universities. Of course, I know academics who are sane and sensible people.
For good commercial reasons, unrelated to the behaviour of dons (except for their inability to write in plain English), we tend now to avoid publishing academic texts unless they can cross over into the mainstream.
Many I come across get offended simply by a refusal to publish a manuscript which I know and they know will not break even, let alone make money.
The ones we do take on seem perplexed by the notion that we are taking the risk in publishing a book and that the level of advance should reflect that fact. Many seem indifferent to the fact that an advance needs to be earned out by royalties because they do not expect to get to that point. In other words, they want an advance they have no expectation of paying back. More free money?
At book launches, they expect their mates/spouses to be taken for dinner and are offended when I explain that the £50 extra I'd have to find to feed this non-contributing mate would, on my margins, require an uplift of over 10% in their projected sales simply to cover the cost, they simply cannot see why that would be relevant.
There seems to be a general assumption that we should be paying them for the honour and prestige of being allowed to risk our limited resources on publishing them. There are, of course, occasions when we publish a marginal book, because we think it should be out there rather than because we can see a profit but that is our privilege to exercise and decision to make.
It is, I suppose to be expected, given that they operate in a culture of "free stuff". There are, of course, those who are decent and honourable and do think and worry about these things.
Seems like you didn't set yp your contact particularly well but if you don't want to support them, then don't.
Yes, they should write you a thank you card out of courtesy but if you are a relatively small firm, it may not be high on their agenda.
The young people I work with are in general very smart, hungry and talented. And wipe the floor with the older generation.
Yes, they should write you a thank you card out of courtesy but if you are a relatively small firm, it may not be high on their agenda.
The young people I work with are in general very smart, hungry and talented. And wipe the floor with the older generation.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Monday 12th June 07:23
SDB660 said:
Have emailed a University that I am currently doing free work for to say project terminated unless they want to pay a commercial rate.
Presuming you freely entered into the arrangement on the terms as were, and haven't just decided to ditch them on a whim - what's changed so quickly?anonymous said:
[redacted]
Your intentions were noble but you needed the kids whose parents could not afford a summer holiday or maybe even a phone for the kid. Those were the ones that needed the gig and would have worked their socks off for it.
This part is not directed at you but often found that with these kind of opportunities for under-privileged kids inadvertently favour the slighty-privileged. You want to help a few but a few you feel will do well - which will tend to become an objective assessment about attendance and performance - which then becomes a selective process about grades etc. What perhaps you needed the courage to do was to open it up to kids that needed the help but on paper probably did not appear that they would do well- a leap of faith in other words. The kids that have nothing to aim for because they have no idea that kind of life exists. The kids without computers and internet for their coursework, or time for attending after school activities, money for school trips etc.
High risk i guess and I am not telling you why kinds of people to open your work and colleagues to.
Back on topic to OP- I guess I would say not all students are the same and maybe for every 10-20 ungratefuls you will inspire even one kid. Perhaps you can align with a uni or schoold that does appreciate it and welcomes you back so the process is my engaging. Not all students will have voted or voted for labour. But also the slight oxymoron - if they voted labour they did so with an eye on the kind of future they are going to be allowed based on manifesto plegdes. Selfish perhaps but that is the point of us all voting for what and who we want. So hopefully, somewhere in there, there is a set of people worrying about their future prospects, and who would appreciate your help.
SidewaysSi said:
Seems like you didn't set yp your contact particularly well but if you don't want to support them, then don't.
Yes, they should write you a thank you card out of courtesy but if you are a relatively small firm, it may not be high on their agenda.
The young people I work with are in general very smart, hungry and talented. And wipe the floor with the older generation.
I do some work with a couple of Universities, one is a "top 10", the other bottom quartile. Time spent with them is similar to the OP. 5-10 days for each one.Yes, they should write you a thank you card out of courtesy but if you are a relatively small firm, it may not be high on their agenda.
The young people I work with are in general very smart, hungry and talented. And wipe the floor with the older generation.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Monday 12th June 07:23
Mostly I help define post-grad projects, do a bit of guest lecturing, take out the course leaders and get them drunk. It's been great fun. Most interactions are very positive and both the institutions and students make an effort to show that they appreciate the time that is given.
The only (minor) drawback is the constant haranguing for jobs or internships!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
it may be that you're looking in the wrong places. Around Manchester/Lancashire students are willing to sell their grandparents even for unpaid internships, especially in Finance and Law. Some of the less principled law firms are taking advantage of this by offering 3 months unpaid "internships" (where the "Trainee lawyer" spends all his/her time calling people up about their unclaimed PPI / their recent car accident etc etc).
In relation to the OP - you say that it was your intention to be "10% philanthropic". That's an excellent approach. I wouldn't change it just because some students weren't grateful enough. It may well be that they don't realise you're doing them a favour.
ks anonymous said:
[redacted]
All had been scrubbed up nicely - suits, ties, polish on shoes, so no first impression bias between them. Academically, I think they were also much of a muchness but, Lordy, the differences in attitude!
Three had clearly been pushed into coming, weren't engaged, spent their lives looking at their phones and scratching their 'nads.
The other two were like Hoovers, they stayed on late every day (I'd be working 0700 to 2100, core hours 0900-1730), asked questions, sought tips, wanted to learn and, I suspect, would go far whatever they chose to do.
When it came to giving feedback, which I did individually over lunch, I highlighted as kindly as I could to the 'nad scratchers the gap between them and the Hoovers - how enthusiastic, engaged etc the latter were and invited them to consider who was more likely to be engaged. Shrugged shoulders and stares out of the window. At the end of the internship, one told me he had ticked the box required by his school and that was the only reason why he was there.
On the other hand, we invited the two Hoovers back and I'm pleased to say one now has a post-A level training contract and is going great guns. He arrived here aged seven unable to speak English... Nothing will stop him. (Incidentally, the only to drop me and my team an email to thank us for hosting him).
i work in a uni and I try to avoid doing anything with industry because as soon as 'real world' or 'application' comes into things I lose interest. just want to do science.
my attitude is typical of a lot of people in universities (but not all), so the perspective that those of you who do get involved contribute is really valuable. thanks all.
my attitude is typical of a lot of people in universities (but not all), so the perspective that those of you who do get involved contribute is really valuable. thanks all.
I know plenty of hardworking people who vote labour and plenty who vote Tory. I don't know any really lazy people but if you were a logical lazy person it's obvious that you would incline towards parties supporting s bigger state and greater redistribution. To be clear I'm
Not saying that that is the only reason, or the most common reason, to vote labour, but it could be a reason.
Not saying that that is the only reason, or the most common reason, to vote labour, but it could be a reason.
SDB660 said:
Occurred to me that my firm has given on average five free days a year to Universities across this country over last decade. Free 3D scanning, talks, advice, CAD design, 3D printed parts, help etc and so on. Often had to travel hundreds of miles unpaid, even for expenses like fuel. Was part of the business plan to be 10% approx philanthropic. This mostly went to trying to help new talent.
Also occurred to me that I have only once received a thank you letter, phone call or email from a student or lecturer. Well no more. The ungrateful *(insert rude word)* can find some other mug to help them. Have emailed a University that I am currently doing free work for to say project terminated unless they want to pay a commercial rate.
Now have five free days a year to put my feet up or more than likely do some extra paid work.
Hope this gives a tiny sample of the student population a wake up call from the grafters who they want to extract money from. Manners and an appreciation of a person giving up their own time to help the future of the nation should at least warrant a card in the post to say ta.
Count yourself lucky they never shat in your bin.Also occurred to me that I have only once received a thank you letter, phone call or email from a student or lecturer. Well no more. The ungrateful *(insert rude word)* can find some other mug to help them. Have emailed a University that I am currently doing free work for to say project terminated unless they want to pay a commercial rate.
Now have five free days a year to put my feet up or more than likely do some extra paid work.
Hope this gives a tiny sample of the student population a wake up call from the grafters who they want to extract money from. Manners and an appreciation of a person giving up their own time to help the future of the nation should at least warrant a card in the post to say ta.
Edited by SDB660 on Monday 12th June 00:15
We are currently working with a student from Liverpool Uni, using our business for some sort of PhD model. Probably on how not to run a business !!!
I quite enjoy his company though I'm not sure about his future as he is from Ghana and there seems to be an issue with his wife.
As to election ramifications I can understand people's frustration. Yet you really can't blame youngsters for taking control of their futures. I thought that is what we always wanted them to do? If someone offered to pay £54,000 off my mortgage I may well be tempted though I'm old enough to ask the questions how and why?
And that's where it becomes interesting.
I quite enjoy his company though I'm not sure about his future as he is from Ghana and there seems to be an issue with his wife.
As to election ramifications I can understand people's frustration. Yet you really can't blame youngsters for taking control of their futures. I thought that is what we always wanted them to do? If someone offered to pay £54,000 off my mortgage I may well be tempted though I'm old enough to ask the questions how and why?
And that's where it becomes interesting.
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