RE: Virtual just got real: Speed Matters
Tuesday 27th June 2017
This is all a bit odd. I'm plunging down Quiddelbacher Hohe, bracing myself for the G-out at the bottom of the dip and making sure I've got my line sorted for the leap over the crest into Flugplatz. I know a dab of the brakes once the car has settled will get the car around the right-hander but the speed and narrow window of opportunity for doing so scares the hell out of me, even though I've done it hundreds of times. And there was that one in the F-Type when I was a little early on the brake pedal and the car was still unloaded. Meaning the ABS sent the pedal through the floor just as I REALLY needed to scrub off some speed. Still shudder at that one.
Not reflective of Dan's 'ring experienceSo. Man lives out Nurburgring fantasies on games console. What's new here? Not a lot.
Erm, neither is this!Now it's the other way around though. In an attempt to keep pace with gamers who know the virtual Nordschleife far better than I do my knowledge of the real thing is really helping me. How many of my online rivals know instinctively you can straightline the kerbs through Wipperman? Or that pretty much every car understeers out of Brunnchen 2 but that lifting here is the worst possible response? OK, going by their scarcely believable lap times quite a few of them. Can they actually feel the dips, compressions and cornering forces in their stomachs like I do though?
Virtual just got real: PH Blog
Life imitating art in Gran Turismo? More like the other way round
I'm not in Germany though. I'm in my living room, reaping the benefits of a recent switch to freelancing. And access to the beta test version of Gran Turismo Sport. Nothing could possibly go wrong with these two events coinciding. Nothing whatsoever.
Not reflective of Dan's 'ring experience
Only I'm not living out fantasies. I'm recalling actual memories. And this is the weird bit. There's a generation of virtual drivers with a forensic knowledge of every last inch of the Nordschleife, but who have never seen the actual track in their lives. The dangers of what happens to those who do are well documented. Like the friend-of-a-friend who span a 350Z on one of the scary fast left-handers on the way up Kesselchen "because it looked faster than that in Gran Turismo".
I've had an on-off and occasionally intense relationship with Gran Turismo over the years. Similar to that I've had with the real Nurburgring to be fair. Currently it's very much on with both and I'm attempting to re-learn the track for the game. But I realised the other night I'm kind of doing it the other way around from most, because I'm leaning on track knowledge amassed from real life and applying to the virtual representation. Not the other way around.
The boundaries are sufficiently blurred now that this is entirely possible, in both directions. Jann Mardenborough and other GT Academy winners have proven gaming talents can translate to a successful racing career in the real world. And at a slightly less glamorous level my Gran Turismo schooled knowledge of Tsukuba helped massively when I unexpectedly found myself racing there for real. And my pre-race warm-up at Polyphony's HQ ended up being to within tenths of my actual race pace.
Erm, neither is this!
What does this prove, other than having time on your hands and a games console is a dangerous combination? Well, all those years of driving to Germany, terrifying credit card bills, awful experiences in Belgian motorway service stations, endless steaks and beer in the Pistenklause and the company of a great bunch of blokes to share it with weren't entirely wasted. Because my living room is now a waft of stale Bitburger away from being a teleportation device direct to the 'ring.
Two things to draw from this. One, I need to get out more and start earning some money. Two, I may have to start pricing up ferry crossings. Because there's another itch to scratch.
Dan
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Discussion
Thanks tosh.brice!
And is the game any good? Once I can get through Tiergarten without crashing I'll let you know! Story for another day but it's got me playing games again, which is something I haven't done for a long time. Obviously I now need to do some INTENSIVE background on the rivals before I can rule categorically!
Cheers,
Dan
And is the game any good? Once I can get through Tiergarten without crashing I'll let you know! Story for another day but it's got me playing games again, which is something I haven't done for a long time. Obviously I now need to do some INTENSIVE background on the rivals before I can rule categorically!
Cheers,
Dan
Hmm. Gran Turismo Sport, Eh?
I Won't be buying it, despite following the series since its inception.
Quite simply, Polyphony Digital have insulted their customers with the continual delays associated with this product. It's literally years overdue.
At one point, it had a release date, only to be pulled three weeks prior to it.
I skimmed the article, and didn't see a revised release date. I'll wager it still doesn't have one.
I won't be buying it because it's the only way I can meaningfully communicate my disappointment to the developers. No point in sending snotty emails and what-not. Just Voting with my feet. I sincerely hope that other similarly disenfranchised individuals do the same.
/grumble.
I Won't be buying it, despite following the series since its inception.
Quite simply, Polyphony Digital have insulted their customers with the continual delays associated with this product. It's literally years overdue.
At one point, it had a release date, only to be pulled three weeks prior to it.
I skimmed the article, and didn't see a revised release date. I'll wager it still doesn't have one.
I won't be buying it because it's the only way I can meaningfully communicate my disappointment to the developers. No point in sending snotty emails and what-not. Just Voting with my feet. I sincerely hope that other similarly disenfranchised individuals do the same.
/grumble.
Evilex said:
Hmm. Gran Turismo Sport, Eh?
I Won't be buying it, despite following the series since its inception.
Quite simply, Polyphony Digital have insulted their customers with the continual delays associated with this product. It's literally years overdue.
At one point, it had a release date, only to be pulled three weeks prior to it.
I skimmed the article, and didn't see a revised release date. I'll wager it still doesn't have one.
I won't be buying it because it's the only way I can meaningfully communicate my disappointment to the developers. No point in sending snotty emails and what-not. Just Voting with my feet. I sincerely hope that other similarly disenfranchised individuals do the same.
/grumble.
To be honest, not buying a Gran Tursimo game becuase it is massively delayed is the same as not buying one as it has 17 variations of Skylines in it. That's just GT. I Won't be buying it, despite following the series since its inception.
Quite simply, Polyphony Digital have insulted their customers with the continual delays associated with this product. It's literally years overdue.
At one point, it had a release date, only to be pulled three weeks prior to it.
I skimmed the article, and didn't see a revised release date. I'll wager it still doesn't have one.
I won't be buying it because it's the only way I can meaningfully communicate my disappointment to the developers. No point in sending snotty emails and what-not. Just Voting with my feet. I sincerely hope that other similarly disenfranchised individuals do the same.
/grumble.
It's annoying, but Kaz treats it as a labour of love, and even the might of Sony Computer Entertainment can't force him to get his finger out.
I used Gran Turismo in the mid-90s to learn the circuit before my first RMA track day at the Ring, and the insight it gave was very very useful.
I repeated the exercise before I raced there some years later. Even then it was crazily accurate at learning the circuit.....but only really the basics of layout etc.
Interested to see how 20yrs of game development has added more to the mix and the benefits to be had.
I repeated the exercise before I raced there some years later. Even then it was crazily accurate at learning the circuit.....but only really the basics of layout etc.
Interested to see how 20yrs of game development has added more to the mix and the benefits to be had.
I've got a gaming PC and a G27 wheel.
I can possibly see how it could be useful to learn the basic layout of a track. It's also a lot of fun when you're in the mood. However, other than that, its not really at all similar to proper driving, other than the fact you're using a steering wheel and pedals. The feedback through the wheel always feels a bit fake to me, there are no G-forces, no bumps in the road, no sense of imminent death so you will happily not brake for corners and career off the road. Most games don't work with the proper H-shift box, so you're either forced to use the paddles or use elastic bands to emulate a sequential shifter, and you're staring at a screen. I'd rather go for a little B-road blast in my little slow car than racing around a virtual 'ring in an F1 car.
I am aware that some of these issues can be addressed, but who has the space and money to plough that much into a game?
Then again, I realise I'm generally losing my desire to play games as I get older, but honestly, I'd really like to get into this but it just isn't the same.
That said, I will be interested to see what these games are like in VR...
I can possibly see how it could be useful to learn the basic layout of a track. It's also a lot of fun when you're in the mood. However, other than that, its not really at all similar to proper driving, other than the fact you're using a steering wheel and pedals. The feedback through the wheel always feels a bit fake to me, there are no G-forces, no bumps in the road, no sense of imminent death so you will happily not brake for corners and career off the road. Most games don't work with the proper H-shift box, so you're either forced to use the paddles or use elastic bands to emulate a sequential shifter, and you're staring at a screen. I'd rather go for a little B-road blast in my little slow car than racing around a virtual 'ring in an F1 car.
I am aware that some of these issues can be addressed, but who has the space and money to plough that much into a game?
Then again, I realise I'm generally losing my desire to play games as I get older, but honestly, I'd really like to get into this but it just isn't the same.
That said, I will be interested to see what these games are like in VR...
Ive had the Gran Turismo Sport beta for a few weeks now and have been very disappointed with it so far.
Firstly, its a new racing game of the modern era and yet it doesnt have any visible car damage whatsoever. The cars look nice and shiny but they stay that way regardless of bumps, scrapes and crashes.
Secondly, the physics and handling do not feel progressive at all. Im only playing on a dual shock controller but i cant progressively manage the transition between grip and oversteer. I cant tell what the tyres or brakes are doing going into a corner.
Thirdly, the game so far doesnt have any career mode, and instead consists only of online races and individual time trials. I dont know how much this will change before the game finally launches.
Fourthly, the game has about 170 cars but some of those are vision concept cars which of course are not real and driving them just seems pointless as they dont have any real life counterparts to measure them against.
Ive been playing forza on the xbox since the original in 2000 (even that had a damage model) and each forza game gets better and better (forza 5 was a hiccup).
As it stands im keeping my ps4 for single player action adventure games (horizon zero dawn, god of war, uncharted etc) and using the xbox one for forza. I wont be preordering gran turismo.
Firstly, its a new racing game of the modern era and yet it doesnt have any visible car damage whatsoever. The cars look nice and shiny but they stay that way regardless of bumps, scrapes and crashes.
Secondly, the physics and handling do not feel progressive at all. Im only playing on a dual shock controller but i cant progressively manage the transition between grip and oversteer. I cant tell what the tyres or brakes are doing going into a corner.
Thirdly, the game so far doesnt have any career mode, and instead consists only of online races and individual time trials. I dont know how much this will change before the game finally launches.
Fourthly, the game has about 170 cars but some of those are vision concept cars which of course are not real and driving them just seems pointless as they dont have any real life counterparts to measure them against.
Ive been playing forza on the xbox since the original in 2000 (even that had a damage model) and each forza game gets better and better (forza 5 was a hiccup).
As it stands im keeping my ps4 for single player action adventure games (horizon zero dawn, god of war, uncharted etc) and using the xbox one for forza. I wont be preordering gran turismo.
As someone who had several thousands of hours of experience of racing in virtual world on various different ‘simulators’, I thought that I might have a tiny bit of usable experience that I could apply to my first track day.
Nope.
Apart from knowing vaguely where corners were, there was nothing really useful that could be applied from game to real life. Nothing comes close to the sights, smells and most importantly, the sensations you get from being out on track.
I find in video games your first indication that you’re over/understeering is often visual. In real life if you wait until your eyes have picked up that something has gone wrong, its probably too late to actually save it. The feedback of the car, even through supposedly decent £400-£500 steering wheel setups just isn’t anywhere vaguely close to simulating the real life behaviour of a car yet (and I doubt they ever will).
The closest thing I've found to adrenaline to being on track at home is Iracing, and a large part of that is the fact that when you’ve binned it in a race there is no restart button. I’ve waited literally days for league races, and then binned it on the first lap and been out of the race. Hugely frustrating when things go wrong, but highly rewarding once you get it right.
Nope.
Apart from knowing vaguely where corners were, there was nothing really useful that could be applied from game to real life. Nothing comes close to the sights, smells and most importantly, the sensations you get from being out on track.
I find in video games your first indication that you’re over/understeering is often visual. In real life if you wait until your eyes have picked up that something has gone wrong, its probably too late to actually save it. The feedback of the car, even through supposedly decent £400-£500 steering wheel setups just isn’t anywhere vaguely close to simulating the real life behaviour of a car yet (and I doubt they ever will).
The closest thing I've found to adrenaline to being on track at home is Iracing, and a large part of that is the fact that when you’ve binned it in a race there is no restart button. I’ve waited literally days for league races, and then binned it on the first lap and been out of the race. Hugely frustrating when things go wrong, but highly rewarding once you get it right.
TameRacingDriver said:
I've got a gaming PC and a G27 wheel.
I can possibly see how it could be useful to learn the basic layout of a track. It's also a lot of fun when you're in the mood. However, other than that, its not really at all similar to proper driving, other than the fact you're using a steering wheel and pedals. The feedback through the wheel always feels a bit fake to me, there are no G-forces, no bumps in the road, no sense of imminent death so you will happily not brake for corners and career off the road. Most games don't work with the proper H-shift box, so you're either forced to use the paddles or use elastic bands to emulate a sequential shifter, and you're staring at a screen. I'd rather go for a little B-road blast in my little slow car than racing around a virtual 'ring in an F1 car.
I am aware that some of these issues can be addressed, but who has the space and money to plough that much into a game?
Then again, I realise I'm generally losing my desire to play games as I get older, but honestly, I'd really like to get into this but it just isn't the same.
That said, I will be interested to see what these games are like in VR...
VR helps but really only with sighting and being able to place the car better. That said , racing games are significantly more fun with goggles on and I'd strongly recommend giving it a shot (if your stomach can take it) I can possibly see how it could be useful to learn the basic layout of a track. It's also a lot of fun when you're in the mood. However, other than that, its not really at all similar to proper driving, other than the fact you're using a steering wheel and pedals. The feedback through the wheel always feels a bit fake to me, there are no G-forces, no bumps in the road, no sense of imminent death so you will happily not brake for corners and career off the road. Most games don't work with the proper H-shift box, so you're either forced to use the paddles or use elastic bands to emulate a sequential shifter, and you're staring at a screen. I'd rather go for a little B-road blast in my little slow car than racing around a virtual 'ring in an F1 car.
I am aware that some of these issues can be addressed, but who has the space and money to plough that much into a game?
Then again, I realise I'm generally losing my desire to play games as I get older, but honestly, I'd really like to get into this but it just isn't the same.
That said, I will be interested to see what these games are like in VR...
Ares said:
I used Gran Turismo in the mid-90s to learn the circuit before my first RMA track day at the Ring, and the insight it gave was very very useful.
I repeated the exercise before I raced there some years later. Even then it was crazily accurate at learning the circuit.....but only really the basics of layout etc.
Interested to see how 20yrs of game development has added more to the mix and the benefits to be had.
Well I mean, the Ring was introduced in GT4 which was in 2004...I repeated the exercise before I raced there some years later. Even then it was crazily accurate at learning the circuit.....but only really the basics of layout etc.
Interested to see how 20yrs of game development has added more to the mix and the benefits to be had.
279 said:
As someone who had several thousands of hours of experience of racing in virtual world on various different ‘simulators’, I thought that I might have a tiny bit of usable experience that I could apply to my first track day.
Nope.
See now oddly I found when I did a rally experience day, as soon as I was strapped in to the car (RWD converted Impreza, only ~180bhp or so) I found I instantly felt very 'at home' and everything felt natural. I can only describe it as being in the same mindset, and the idea of throwing the car around, dealing with the brakes locking up on gravel, balancing the throttle and steering to ride out understeer etc. it all felt like the same process as sim racing, except naturally you have a lot more feedback in a real car.Nope.
I think I got a lot more out of the rally experience as a result of my hours of sims with a force feedback steering wheel.
Another thing that sim racing has taught me is the importance of winding the lock back off again when the car oversteers, to avoid being spat off the other way when it begins to grip again.
Going back to the brakes locking up, it helps you practice the mentality of lifting off the brake when they lock up to allow you to steer. In this video below, I'm not sure what the outcome would have been had I not had the relatively calm mindset of managing the brakes when they locked up (there was a faulty wheel speed sensor, which meant no ABS and the track was hilariously slippery)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7a_HbrMjCI
Don't get me wrong, I think there were larger issues there, like my general target fixation, as I'm fairly sure I could have just steered away from the drop/barrier far earlier
But still, my point was more to illustrate that sim racing helps you practice your state of mind when things start to go a bit squirrely, which I think is still valuable, beyond just learning which way tracks go.
279 said:
As someone who had several thousands of hours of experience of racing in virtual world on various different ‘simulators’, I thought that I might have a tiny bit of usable experience that I could apply to my first track day.
Nope.
Apart from knowing vaguely where corners were, there was nothing really useful that could be applied from game to real life. Nothing comes close to the sights, smells and most importantly, the sensations you get from being out on track.
I find in video games your first indication that you’re over/understeering is often visual. In real life if you wait until your eyes have picked up that something has gone wrong, its probably too late to actually save it. The feedback of the car, even through supposedly decent £400-£500 steering wheel setups just isn’t anywhere vaguely close to simulating the real life behaviour of a car yet (and I doubt they ever will).
The closest thing I've found to adrenaline to being on track at home is Iracing, and a large part of that is the fact that when you’ve binned it in a race there is no restart button. I’ve waited literally days for league races, and then binned it on the first lap and been out of the race. Hugely frustrating when things go wrong, but highly rewarding once you get it right.
Usable experience of the track....not the car!Nope.
Apart from knowing vaguely where corners were, there was nothing really useful that could be applied from game to real life. Nothing comes close to the sights, smells and most importantly, the sensations you get from being out on track.
I find in video games your first indication that you’re over/understeering is often visual. In real life if you wait until your eyes have picked up that something has gone wrong, its probably too late to actually save it. The feedback of the car, even through supposedly decent £400-£500 steering wheel setups just isn’t anywhere vaguely close to simulating the real life behaviour of a car yet (and I doubt they ever will).
The closest thing I've found to adrenaline to being on track at home is Iracing, and a large part of that is the fact that when you’ve binned it in a race there is no restart button. I’ve waited literally days for league races, and then binned it on the first lap and been out of the race. Hugely frustrating when things go wrong, but highly rewarding once you get it right.
Even the BTCC guys used to say they used TOCA and GT to learn circuits.
F1GTRUeno said:
Ares said:
I used Gran Turismo in the mid-90s to learn the circuit before my first RMA track day at the Ring, and the insight it gave was very very useful.
I repeated the exercise before I raced there some years later. Even then it was crazily accurate at learning the circuit.....but only really the basics of layout etc.
Interested to see how 20yrs of game development has added more to the mix and the benefits to be had.
Well I mean, the Ring was introduced in GT4 which was in 2004...I repeated the exercise before I raced there some years later. Even then it was crazily accurate at learning the circuit.....but only really the basics of layout etc.
Interested to see how 20yrs of game development has added more to the mix and the benefits to be had.
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