Crypto Currency Thread
Discussion
dimots said:
No not at all.
Why not just take payment into a bank account then? What actual benefit is there to taking payment in BTC other than to avoid tax? The whole 'anonymous' angle is not a benefit, btw. Either they know who their dealing with, or they dont. Either way, payment into a bitcoin address or bank account doesn't change that.
dimots said:
DonkeyApple said:
Here’s the thing: BTC is part of the financial industry.
No it isn't.DonkeyApple said:
It is not some mystical thing that sits in a wholly separate dimension. 
.
Yes it is..DonkeyApple said:
It is merely a corner of the financial industry.
No it isn't.DonkeyApple said:
A corner which happens to have enormous cross over with retail tin foil gamblers and ‘they’re out to get us!’ people. 
You're talking about a corner of the financial industry dedicated to high volatility trading of cryptocurrencies now, not bitcoin the protocol that enables secure peer to peer payments between networked anonymous entities.DonkeyApple said:
And because it currently resides mostly in that area of the financial industry it currently remains rife with fraud, deception, tinfoil and plain stupidity. As do all the financial products that sit outside mainstream regulation for the most part.
Yes I agree the financial industry currently remains rife with fraud, deception, tinfoil and plain stupidity.
It is part of the financial industry, it is currently on the fringe but it already reaches through into prime financial services and as it actually finds credible uses it will migrate into the mainstream fully.
I’m really sorry to break this to you but this isn’t a revolution of the disenfranchised and the crazy, they are just the punters being milked in an evolutionary corner of the financial services industry.
Benbay001 said:
Behemoth said:
Yes, it's a new financial world that is making money.
Forgive my nievity, but the supply of bitcoin is fixed, so to make money from bit coin, someone else has to be losing out, right?And bitcoin as a currency is solely there for criminals.
All markets work by someone gaining & someone else losing. That's how market prices are found.
Bitcoin as a payment system is very very early stage. There are a few participants, but it is mostly fringe activities. Many of these are perfectly legitimate. Most people are speculating with it or see it as a store of value. The currency of choice for criminals is still dollars, euro, sterling by a very large margin.
Condi said:
dimots said:
No not at all.
Why not just take payment into a bank account then? What actual benefit is there to taking payment in BTC other than to avoid tax? The whole 'anonymous' angle is not a benefit, btw. Either they know who their dealing with, or they dont. Either way, payment into a bitcoin address or bank account doesn't change that.
p1stonhead said:
I don’t see any benefit to using it either. And what reputable firm accepts or pays in bitcoin which fluctuates so wildly?
Arguably it is that price instability that holds it back in addition to its lack of security. A true currency such as the USD may be prone to devaluation but that risk is dwarfed by the seismic value changes of existing mainstream cryptos, while at the same time you aren’t going to even contemplate shoving a few billion down a pipe that has no intrinsic security or underwriting. Let alone so open to manipulation. The fact that most white collar crime still gets processed as USD as well as ending up as USD sums up the stage we are currently at. Even Pablo and Ivan want USD at the end and aren’t fronting the exchange risk at the street level.
In many regards a crypto is the holy grail for replacing now illegal bearer bonds but in reality not only are the transit risks the same but you have massive currency risk.
Behemoth said:
All markets work by someone gaining & someone else losing. That's how market prices are found.
But if you have a share of a company, youre entitled to a share of the money that company generates.If you have a bond, that bond allowed a company to grow and with the money that growth generated, they can now pay you back.
If you own a BTL, that house is providing a shelter for a family and they pay you for that.
As a hedge against inflation, yes Bitcoin is fixed in supply, but so are many other things.... at least if you buy land you know there will be demand for it in 10 years time.
With bitcoin, despite its anomnity, if regulators wanted to crack down on it, they could.
It wouldnt take much. EG, A terror attack which after investigation turns out was funded through the anomnity of bitcoin. Do you really think the authorities couldnt crack down on Mr Blogs who bought a bitcoin on an exchange?
By "investing" and providing liquidity to crypto, the only people you are benefiting are speculators and criminals.
DonkeyApple said:
Arguably it is that price instability that holds it back in addition to its lack of security. A true currency such as the USD may be prone to devaluation but that risk is dwarfed by the seismic value changes of existing mainstream cryptos, while at the same time you aren’t going to even contemplate shoving a few billion down a pipe that has no intrinsic security or underwriting. Let alone so open to manipulation.
The fact that most white collar crime still gets processed as USD as well as ending up as USD sums up the stage we are currently at. Even Pablo and Ivan want USD at the end and aren’t fronting the exchange risk at the street level.
In many regards a crypto is the holy grail for replacing now illegal bearer bonds but in reality not only are the transit risks the same but you have massive currency risk.
The intrinsic security to bitcoin is immense. It is provided by an impenetrable wall of energy no actor could hope to corrupt. It makes bitcoin far more secure to tampering than money controlled by those twiddling with ever more fraught experiments on the monetary dials.The fact that most white collar crime still gets processed as USD as well as ending up as USD sums up the stage we are currently at. Even Pablo and Ivan want USD at the end and aren’t fronting the exchange risk at the street level.
In many regards a crypto is the holy grail for replacing now illegal bearer bonds but in reality not only are the transit risks the same but you have massive currency risk.
Price volatility is simply price discovery. All new assets go through this. You cannot expect something like this to be born with a stable price. It remains the best performing asset in history.
Linking bitcoin to illegality is a straw man argument at best. There's no law in this country (and almost all other advanced democracies) stopping you owning bitcoin. Far more illegality happens within the standard banking system. The vast majority of Bitcoin use is by perfectly legitimate speculators and investors.
Behemoth said:
DonkeyApple said:
Arguably it is that price instability that holds it back in addition to its lack of security. A true currency such as the USD may be prone to devaluation but that risk is dwarfed by the seismic value changes of existing mainstream cryptos, while at the same time you aren’t going to even contemplate shoving a few billion down a pipe that has no intrinsic security or underwriting. Let alone so open to manipulation.
The fact that most white collar crime still gets processed as USD as well as ending up as USD sums up the stage we are currently at. Even Pablo and Ivan want USD at the end and aren’t fronting the exchange risk at the street level.
In many regards a crypto is the holy grail for replacing now illegal bearer bonds but in reality not only are the transit risks the same but you have massive currency risk.
The intrinsic security to bitcoin is immense. It is provided by an impenetrable wall of energy no actor could hope to corrupt. It makes bitcoin far more secure to tampering than money controlled by those twiddling with ever more fraught experiments on the monetary dials.The fact that most white collar crime still gets processed as USD as well as ending up as USD sums up the stage we are currently at. Even Pablo and Ivan want USD at the end and aren’t fronting the exchange risk at the street level.
In many regards a crypto is the holy grail for replacing now illegal bearer bonds but in reality not only are the transit risks the same but you have massive currency risk.
.
Behemoth said:
The intrinsic security to bitcoin is immense. It is provided by an impenetrable wall of energy no actor could hope to corrupt. It makes bitcoin far more secure to tampering than money controlled by those twiddling with ever more fraught experiments on the monetary dials.
Price volatility is simply price discovery. All new assets go through this. You cannot expect something like this to be born with a stable price. It remains the best performing asset in history.
Linking bitcoin to illegality is a straw man argument at best. There's no law in this country (and almost all other advanced democracies) stopping you owning bitcoin. Far more illegality happens within the standard banking system. The vast majority of Bitcoin use is by perfectly legitimate speculators and investors.
As ever, you can interpret it how you like. Yes, the blockchain is secure, but I don't think there is any other asset since the Spanish raided Inca mines of which such a large percentage has been taken via hacks or theft. Price volatility is simply price discovery. All new assets go through this. You cannot expect something like this to be born with a stable price. It remains the best performing asset in history.
Linking bitcoin to illegality is a straw man argument at best. There's no law in this country (and almost all other advanced democracies) stopping you owning bitcoin. Far more illegality happens within the standard banking system. The vast majority of Bitcoin use is by perfectly legitimate speculators and investors.
And equally, while there is no law against owning bitcoin, and the vast majority of people use it to bet with (investment is the wrong word), what percentage of spending (not investment, but actual spending in return for goods) is done in the black economy vs something you're prepared to declare to the tax man? Very very little is ever declared in any book. Even if you use it to speculate with and make some money, nobody is paying CGT on that. So I don't see it as a straw man argument at all, I see it as the sole fundamental reason it has any value at all. The only people buying this to use are using it in the black economy.
Condi said:
As ever, you can interpret it how you like. Yes, the blockchain is secure, but I don't think there is any other asset since the Spanish raided Inca mines of which such a large percentage has been taken via hacks or theft.
And equally, while there is no law against owning bitcoin, and the vast majority of people use it to bet with (investment is the wrong word), what percentage of spending (not investment, but actual spending in return for goods) is done in the black economy vs something you're prepared to declare to the tax man? Very very little is ever declared in any book. Even if you use it to speculate with and make some money, nobody is paying CGT on that. So I don't see it as a straw man argument at all, I see it as the sole fundamental reason it has any value at all. The only people buying this to use are using it in the black economy.
Give your bearer instrument to a "trusted" party to hold for you and of course you run a high risk of losing it. If it's held properly by people who understand it, it's hugely secure. If you can't be bothered to find out how to do this, then tough.And equally, while there is no law against owning bitcoin, and the vast majority of people use it to bet with (investment is the wrong word), what percentage of spending (not investment, but actual spending in return for goods) is done in the black economy vs something you're prepared to declare to the tax man? Very very little is ever declared in any book. Even if you use it to speculate with and make some money, nobody is paying CGT on that. So I don't see it as a straw man argument at all, I see it as the sole fundamental reason it has any value at all. The only people buying this to use are using it in the black economy.
Plenty of CGT is paid on bitcoin holdings. The IRS and HMRC have ramped up their understanding and collecting processes very impressively over the last couple of years. So too the big accountancy practices. I know this directly. Claiming that nobody is paying CGT on bitcoin is an utter falsehood.
A money does not have to be spent to be used. All speculators and store of value investors are using it by just holding it. If you've saved £100k over 10 years you are still using money. It is still in the system, counted as part of the overall money supply. Deciding not to spend it for now does not mean it just disappears.
p1stonhead said:
You realise is proper tin foil hat sounding stuff right?
If you're comfortable with central banks being at the very end of their tether, good for you. If you see no reason for a little disquiet when someone like Yellen calls for her government to be allowed to buy equities, great & good luck with that.If you don't comprehend why a small asymmetric punt might offer a good risk/return on the future then maybe consider that you might have your lens set at a rather narrow field of view. It isn't any kind of paranoia, it's a very sensible and serious hedge and an inkling we might be in for an interesting couple of decades ahead.
Bitcoin has already outperformed every other asset in history. It has been up and running constantly for 10 years and becomes more robust fundamentally and in infrastructure by the day. Assuming this will all come to a sudden halt is less likely than the probability of it continuing its path.
Behemoth said:
Give your bearer instrument to a "trusted" party to hold for you and of course you run a high risk of losing it. If it's held properly by people who understand it, it's hugely secure. If you can't be bothered to find out how to do this, then tough.
Plenty of CGT is paid on bitcoin holdings. The IRS and HMRC have ramped up their understanding and collecting processes very impressively over the last couple of years. So too the big accountancy practices. I know this directly. Claiming that nobody is paying CGT on bitcoin is an utter falsehood.
A money does not have to be spent to be used. All speculators and store of value investors are using it by just holding it. If you've saved £100k over 10 years you are still using money. It is still in the system, counted as part of the overall money supply. Deciding not to spend it for now does not mean it just disappears.
We shall, as always, agree to disagree. Plenty of CGT is paid on bitcoin holdings. The IRS and HMRC have ramped up their understanding and collecting processes very impressively over the last couple of years. So too the big accountancy practices. I know this directly. Claiming that nobody is paying CGT on bitcoin is an utter falsehood.
A money does not have to be spent to be used. All speculators and store of value investors are using it by just holding it. If you've saved £100k over 10 years you are still using money. It is still in the system, counted as part of the overall money supply. Deciding not to spend it for now does not mean it just disappears.
I would say (without evidence) that the vast majority of money made on bitcoin is not declared for CGT, or income tax. Would love to see figures to the contrary, but you cant provide them. In reality nobody knows how much is declared and how much isn't. Any smart money would say not much.
Of course money sat there doesn't disappear, but money sat there is not a reason for prices to go up and down. If everyone just held bitcoin, and there were no new buyers or sellers, it wouldn't trade but would slowly devalue as more was created - in that way it is the same as the Dollar, Sterling or any other currency. What supports the price - of anything - over the long term is people buying it to use. For bitcoin that means to spend. Which is most likely people buying it to use to buy things they don't want to use cash/Sterling for, otherwise people would just pay cash. So either it is a perfect example of the greater fool theory - that someone today believes someone tomorrow will pay more for it, or its value is being supported by nefarious uses.
Condi said:
money sat there is not a reason for prices to go up and down. If everyone just held bitcoin, and there were no new buyers or sellers, it wouldn't trade but would slowly devalue as more was created - in that way it is the same as the Dollar, Sterling or any other currency. What supports the price - of anything - over the long term is people buying it to use. For bitcoin that means to spend.
I'd disagree with that. Gold is a store of value and its price has almost nothing to do with its use. Bitcoin is, of course, hard capped in supply. More will not be created once the 21 million is done. Proven scarcity is its prime fundamental. Bitcoin has far superior properties than gold as a store of value and in due course as a fully functioning money and currency. It is by no means there yet, this kind of thing takes a long time to play out. Bitcoin is the internet of money, make no mistake.Behemoth said:
I'd disagree with that. Gold is a store of value and its price has almost nothing to do with its use. Bitcoin is, of course, hard capped in supply. More will not be created once the 21 million is done. Proven scarcity is its prime fundamental. Bitcoin has far superior properties than gold as a store of value and in due course as a fully functioning money and currency. It is by no means there yet, this kind of thing takes a long time to play out. Bitcoin is the internet of money, make no mistake.
Well thats your opinion. Gold is a terrible store of value, and since its price was decoupled from cash in real terms its value has not kept up with inflation. Even now, when stock markets were crashing and traditional logic would say to buy Gold, its value didn't increase by much.
The internet went from nothing to something very quickly. If you compare the adoption rates of the internet with that of Bitcoin you'll see that take up hasn't been anything special. The number of transactions has actually been going down since 2018 - people simply arn't using it. If it really was 'the internet of money', why, after 10 years, is it's adoption rate and use not increasing like you would expect? Not only is it not increasing like you would expect, its not increasing at all!
Condi said:
Well thats your opinion.
Gold is a terrible store of value, and since its price was decoupled from cash in real terms its value has not kept up with inflation. Even now, when stock markets were crashing and traditional logic would say to buy Gold, its value didn't increase by much.
The internet went from nothing to something very quickly. If you compare the adoption rates of the internet with that of Bitcoin you'll see that take up hasn't been anything special. The number of transactions has actually been going down since 2018 - people simply arn't using it. If it really was 'the internet of money', why, after 10 years, is it's adoption rate and use not increasing like you would expect? Not only is it not increasing like you would expect, its not increasing at all!
I totally agree gold has plenty of faults. But there's no getting away from the fact it is stored in vast quantities in the belly of many a nation state. And looked at in terms of purchasing power vs an inflation adjusted dollar over many decades, most charts I've seen paint an interesting picture that don't seem to line up too well with your narrative.Gold is a terrible store of value, and since its price was decoupled from cash in real terms its value has not kept up with inflation. Even now, when stock markets were crashing and traditional logic would say to buy Gold, its value didn't increase by much.
The internet went from nothing to something very quickly. If you compare the adoption rates of the internet with that of Bitcoin you'll see that take up hasn't been anything special. The number of transactions has actually been going down since 2018 - people simply arn't using it. If it really was 'the internet of money', why, after 10 years, is it's adoption rate and use not increasing like you would expect? Not only is it not increasing like you would expect, its not increasing at all!
Yes, the internet grew suddenly after plodding along for many years. Slowly, then suddenly, is fairly typical for adoption curves. Counting the number of transactions or users isn't a useful metric at this stage of bitcoin's evolution. It's more instructive to look at hash rate (a fundamental indicator of chain security) and value accrued to the chain.
Here’s a thing about btc - not advice, just my view
In spring 2011 you could buy one btc for 1 us dollar
No one reading a finance thread can honestly say they would not have done so if they knew then what they know now
That level of asymmetry: 1 dollar max loss, 20k dollar max gain (so far) may have gone forever now... some say it hasn’t and some even say you ain’t seen nothing yet
But there is enough potential volatility and a greater than zero chance of btc being worth more dollars in future than it is now, that anyone with any appetite for speculation can probably see the case for having a little allocation as a minute part of their overall portfolio.
A throw away money amount. Even a tenth of the cash someone hasn’t spent in a bar or on takeout coffees due to being confined to the house could be used to stack a few sats.
Everyone has to make their own call and I can understand why most people don’t want to put big lumps of money into btc, but I can’t really understand why so many people who have looked at it enough to form their own opinion are so adamant that putting absolutely nothing in it ever is their best option.
Maybe I missed somethings in my own research? The things that should have sent me scurrying away instead of getting a small holding.
If that’s currently your view, what would have to happen for you to consider buying a few sats? Could anything at all change your mind?
In spring 2011 you could buy one btc for 1 us dollar
No one reading a finance thread can honestly say they would not have done so if they knew then what they know now
That level of asymmetry: 1 dollar max loss, 20k dollar max gain (so far) may have gone forever now... some say it hasn’t and some even say you ain’t seen nothing yet
But there is enough potential volatility and a greater than zero chance of btc being worth more dollars in future than it is now, that anyone with any appetite for speculation can probably see the case for having a little allocation as a minute part of their overall portfolio.
A throw away money amount. Even a tenth of the cash someone hasn’t spent in a bar or on takeout coffees due to being confined to the house could be used to stack a few sats.
Everyone has to make their own call and I can understand why most people don’t want to put big lumps of money into btc, but I can’t really understand why so many people who have looked at it enough to form their own opinion are so adamant that putting absolutely nothing in it ever is their best option.
Maybe I missed somethings in my own research? The things that should have sent me scurrying away instead of getting a small holding.
If that’s currently your view, what would have to happen for you to consider buying a few sats? Could anything at all change your mind?
JPJPJP said:
Here’s a thing about btc - not advice, just my view
In spring 2011 you could buy one btc for 1 us dollar
No one reading a finance thread can honestly say they would not have done so if they knew then what they know now
That level of asymmetry: 1 dollar max loss, 20k dollar max gain (so far) may have gone forever now... some say it hasn’t and some even say you ain’t seen nothing yet
But there is enough potential volatility and a greater than zero chance of btc being worth more dollars in future than it is now, that anyone with any appetite for speculation can probably see the case for having a little allocation as a minute part of their overall portfolio.
A throw away money amount. Even a tenth of the cash someone hasn’t spent in a bar or on takeout coffees due to being confined to the house could be used to stack a few sats.
Everyone has to make their own call and I can understand why most people don’t want to put big lumps of money into btc, but I can’t really understand why so many people who have looked at it enough to form their own opinion are so adamant that putting absolutely nothing in it ever is their best option.
Maybe I missed somethings in my own research? The things that should have sent me scurrying away instead of getting a small holding.
If that’s currently your view, what would have to happen for you to consider buying a few sats? Could anything at all change your mind?
Yup. It’s kind of the core problem, if it just keep going up in value, falling etc as it has done then it remains just a niche spankers product on the fringes of the financial system. If it stabilises then it becomes viable and further adopted into the mainstream which means the associated regulation that comes naturally with that. In spring 2011 you could buy one btc for 1 us dollar
No one reading a finance thread can honestly say they would not have done so if they knew then what they know now
That level of asymmetry: 1 dollar max loss, 20k dollar max gain (so far) may have gone forever now... some say it hasn’t and some even say you ain’t seen nothing yet
But there is enough potential volatility and a greater than zero chance of btc being worth more dollars in future than it is now, that anyone with any appetite for speculation can probably see the case for having a little allocation as a minute part of their overall portfolio.
A throw away money amount. Even a tenth of the cash someone hasn’t spent in a bar or on takeout coffees due to being confined to the house could be used to stack a few sats.
Everyone has to make their own call and I can understand why most people don’t want to put big lumps of money into btc, but I can’t really understand why so many people who have looked at it enough to form their own opinion are so adamant that putting absolutely nothing in it ever is their best option.
Maybe I missed somethings in my own research? The things that should have sent me scurrying away instead of getting a small holding.
If that’s currently your view, what would have to happen for you to consider buying a few sats? Could anything at all change your mind?
And then there is the dichotomy of the disenfranchised who don’t want it to become further brought into the mainstream because for them it’s what is supposed to kill what they fear and despise.
JPJPJP said:
Everyone has to make their own call and I can understand why most people don’t want to put big lumps of money into btc, but I can’t really understand why so many people who have looked at it enough to form their own opinion are so adamant that putting absolutely nothing in it ever is their best option.
Maybe I missed somethings in my own research? The things that should have sent me scurrying away instead of getting a small holding.
If that’s currently your view, what would have to happen for you to consider buying a few sats? Could anything at all change your mind?
Because in my opinion sometime it will trend to 0. Honestly. When that will be, who knows? Certainly not me. It might go up from here, it might go down, but (IMO) eventually it goes down. Maybe I missed somethings in my own research? The things that should have sent me scurrying away instead of getting a small holding.
If that’s currently your view, what would have to happen for you to consider buying a few sats? Could anything at all change your mind?
If I want to gamble then casinos offer pretty croupiers and free drinks. If I want to have an opinion of a financial product there are spread betting companies and investments to use instead.
Bitcoin offers nothing other than a punt on either 1) someone dumber than me buying it in a few months time 2) it being the future of money and everyone wanting a bit. Option 1 is far more likely than option 2, and there are lots of dumb people in the world, but why expose yourself to that?
I trade things for a living, and the starting point for any trade is some form of fundamental analysis. How much do people want and how much is there? Why do people want that much, and is that going to change? I can't answer many of those questions with Bitcoin, and the more you look the more it seems it offers little over regular money for 99.9% of the population, - the only people really needing to use it for an exchange of goods and services are people who can't use bank transfer or cash. If that is the only use I can see, the logical conclusion is that it will either remain very niche, or eventually be banned.
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